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smoke on startup - which oil is best?

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jimw2

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OK tell me if this is true - I have been running castrol because it doesnt seem to smoke on startup and when I did this last oil change I thought I'd try vavoline high mileage - now it smokes on startup - what oil do you find best for the 345 with the classic worn valve guides?
 

John Donnelly

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jimw2 said:
OK tell me if this is true - I have been running castrol because it doesnt seem to smoke on startup and when I did this last oil change I thought I'd try vavoline high mileage - now it smokes on startup - what oil do you find best for the 345 with the classic worn valve guides?

Standard Valvoline, not the fancy "high mileage" stuff. That oil seems to be made for newer cars with lots of aluminum in them.

Castol GTX seems to be a good oil, and I ran it in my VW's for years.

Shell Rotella, or Chevron Delo 400 multigrade are good performers as well for me. I have found that engine oil for Diesel motors works very well for medium duty IH gas engines too.

Binderin',

John
 
D

Doug Shailor

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jimw2 said:
OK tell me if this is true - I have been running castrol because it doesnt seem to smoke on startup and when I did this last oil change I thought I'd try vavoline high mileage - now it smokes on startup - what oil do you find best for the 345 with the classic worn valve guides?

Jim,

Just about every SV engine has a little smoke on start up. I doubt you will find an oil to eliminate it altogether. In fact there has been a lot of speculation here over the years about whether the IH engineers use of the O-ring type valve seals was intentional to lube the steel valve guides on start up.

I have been using regular Valvoline 20W50 in my 345 for about 10 years or so. I have roughly 180K on my engine. I can't be 100% sure as I ran it for about 6 years without a speedo cable. I agree with John though about using the high mileage oils. I would stick with the regular oils.
 

Jay Tabor

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jim its the design of the valve stem seals as mentioned, not worn valve guides, causing oil smoke on start up.
changing oil brands type wont fix a valve guide, and stop oil burning.
be glad you see oil smoke on start up its a sign of good lubrication of valve guides[which keeps wear to a minmum]
 

rc mike

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JUST DID AN OIL CHANGE BEFORE THE RAIN STARTED..
i use the high mileage valvoline with and additive to keep all clean, the 345
has over 200m on her and shes still humping great..a little smoke at start up,
and thats it, also, im one of those guys who change the oil every 3000 miles.


76 scout IIxlc
 

Bill USN-1

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I'll go against the majority!!

I pulled my daily driver scout out of the field after 9 years.
Got it running and of course it had the puff of smoke on start up.
So I pulled the valve covers and removed the last head bolt closest to the firewall on both sides. It partially blocks the oil return. I completely cleaned the oil return with my trusty gun cleaning kit and reinstalled and retorqued the head bolt.
Then I replaced the #7 and #8 valve guide seals with the ford style umbrella seals.
With just those 2 valve guides sealed, she has never puffed smoke since.
It is well over 150K and still going.
I used the umbrella seals on my trail scout when I reringed it also.

So my theory is that the oil accumulates at the back of the head and when you shut the motor off it will seep through the #7 and #8 valve guides and cause the puff of blue smoke on start up.

If it was because it was designed that way then I would expect to see it from all the other cylinders that I didn't install seals on.
But I seriously doubt they even have the o-rings left on them after all these years.

I do agree with most, that the make of oil is an unlikely source of the problem.
 

Jay Tabor

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thats common on sbchevy engines Bill.,
my IH engines dont have clogged oil return holes, although if some engines do and thats the lowest part on the heads top surface thatll definitley cause a 'dam' effect, keeping oil pooling in the valve cover.
I agree that an umbrella v/s seal will sure cut down on oil seeping/sucking down the guide.compared to the oring seal. which some chevys use too.
and how does a head bolt stop oil from returning thru the oil drain passage which is in a recessed channel? on every 266,304,345, 392 Ive seen.
 

Bill USN-1

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Well John I never suggested I know as much about IH engines as you so I can only rely on what I have.
Here are the heads from one of my 345's. I have a set from the flat top pistons and a set from the fire dome pistons.
They are both cast the same and the oil returns thru a hole angled straight around the head bolt, travels thru the head around the head bolt then exits out the bottom thru another hole angled away from the head bolt.
I'm starting to think that if both my sets of heads are like this, than maybe more of them are like this.

Am I looking at the wrong hole???????????
 

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Darrel

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That reminds me. It's actually the rocker arm bolts that need sealing. Some of them enter the intake ports.
 

Jay Tabor

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Bill ya got me on that one! yep the oil drain hole goes past that particular head bolt, I wasnt remembering that, and was only thinking head of bolt, reading your thread. sure enough the drain passage can get clogged with crud, sludge at bolt shank.
I usually spray in some carb cleaner, then blow it out/clean with compressed air, running a wire into the passageway. just to not cause any probs with head gasket by loosing a bolt.
but also when one looks at top of head, the oil collects in the channel, the top of the valve guides are almost 2 inches above the head, so only oil dripping from r/arms gets onto/into valve guide anyway, and if the drain passageways are clogged, the oil starts flowing into pushrod holes at top of head, some starts splashing onto r/arms and v/guides, oil light comes on and rods start knocking!! because that several quarts per head!
 

Bill USN-1

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john tabor said:
.........., and if the drain passageways are clogged, the oil starts flowing into pushrod holes at top of head, some starts splashing onto r/arms and v/guides, oil light comes on and rods start knocking!! because that several quarts per head!

I think I have read about a couple guys here having a problem like this.
Haven't seen an oil light on a scout yet. But I don't own an 80/800 yet!

All I know is after I cleaned the passages and installed the seals on the back cylinders it completely stopped all the blue puffing on start up.

I never bought into this "Urban Legend" of they were designed to do that!!

If my back 2 valve guides show excessive wear after 150-200K miles compared to the other 6 then I might believe. But by then, who cares. They will be due for a rebuild anyways.

Thanks for the confirmation on the drainback holes.
 

Baradium

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Tom Mandera had a rebuilt engine get bent pushrods, he attributed it to using the umbrella type seals and them sealing *too* well and not providing enough lubrication to his exhaust valve (the intake valves get cooled some by the intake gasses so weren't a problem). Anyway, that was his theory at the time. My theory is that the motor lasted this long they way IH designed it, I think whenever I need to rebuild an IH motor I'll stay with that design...
 

Jay Tabor

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I think its a matter of orings stem seals allow more oil to get into guide than an umbrella style seal. longer guide life[but IH guides are tough anyway , not like some big three engines] and along with valve rotators on e valves tend to make engines/valves last a LOOONNNNNGGGG time!
and the oring 'legend' is- oil drips onto v/stem and splashes off of the stem after hitting the oring. as compared to umbrella sheilding v/guide from all oil.
every time Ive had to work on a engine burning oil, I always convert to umbrella style seals from orings[ or new unbroken umbrellas] and that stops oil burning/ ---- most times! got a 350chevy that still burns oil/fouls a plug so--- rings bad on that one cyl#8.
now mine chuffs blue smoke on start ups. and I love starting up near some enviro yuppie just to get a reaction!!
 

Bill USN-1

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I think the big misconception people have is...
Umbrella seals completely seal the valve guide from all oil.
This is far from true.
The sealing surface on an umbrella seal is no larger than on an o-ring seal from the factory.
It will shield the guide from the splash but it floats up and down just like the o-rings. (Some SBC's being an exception when the o-ring sticks in the grove on the valve stem!)

Now if you want to talk about PC seals than I will agree they completely seal and should only be used with a silicon bronze or similar guide material.
Now if someone uses the wrong size umbrella and pushes it over the valve guide so it can't float than you may be asking for trouble.

With the amount of oil vapor in the valve covers you will not starve the guides of lubrication by using an umbrella seal. Think about the amount of oil that accumulates in the little spark arrester on the valve cover.

I guess I'm just not happy with good enough or "it's how the factory did it".
If there is an improvement than I will try it.

Should we all keep points and carbs?
Some think so. :D

Go FI or go home!!!
 

Mike Brosch

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Any good single weight oil is what the thing was built for. Valvoline #30 is a good oil, but maybe you want to replace your PCV valve before you get too excited about the smoke. And does it smoke on acceleration after going down hill for a long time?
Its just not that big a job to R&R those guide seals (with some BB MoPar ones) by running some soft cotten 1/2" rope through the spark plug hole... bring the piston up (CAREFUL!) to lock down the valves... pop off the springs and swap the seals.
Why not drop a new cam and lifter set in it then too?
 

Jay Tabor

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I was referring to the type of seals that encapsulate the v/guide,[a PC] not the umbrella type you talk about which ride the valve stem.
sure the umbrellas you mention sheild the stem from a lot of splash, more so than the oring seal, and when the valve is closed the exposed stem still gets wet with oil that slides into the guide.
 

Baradium

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Sorry, it was the perfect circle seals that Tom M was using. He needs to chime in and verify, but I think he ended up using PC seals on the intake side and another type on the exhaust side.
 

Dan Phariss

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Bill usn-1 said:
I think the big misconception people have is...
Umbrella seals completely seal the valve guide from all oil.
This is far from true.
The sealing surface on an umbrella seal is no larger than on an o-ring seal from the factory.
It will shield the guide from the splash but it floats up and down just like the o-rings. (Some SBC's being an exception when the o-ring sticks in the grove on the valve stem!)

Now if you want to talk about PC seals than I will agree they completely seal and should only be used with a silicon bronze or similar guide material.
Now if someone uses the wrong size umbrella and pushes it over the valve guide so it can't float than you may be asking for trouble.

With the amount of oil vapor in the valve covers you will not starve the guides of lubrication by using an umbrella seal. Think about the amount of oil that accumulates in the little spark arrester on the valve cover.

I guess I'm just not happy with good enough or "it's how the factory did it".
If there is an improvement than I will try it.

Should we all keep points and carbs?
Some think so. :D

Go FI or go home!!!

Another misconceptionis that the IH oil ring is a seal for the GUIDE. Its only purpose is to keep oil from the valve spring cap for running right down the stem to the guide.
Having driven IH vehicles in the 60s and 70s when they were new or nearly so I can tell you that even some low mile SVs smoke on startup. More common than not. Also some of this comes from leaky valve covers letting oil in around the leaky exhaust manifold gaskets and into the exhaust system.
SAE 30 will not cure it. Its just the way they are.

Dan
 
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