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Lock-O-Matic vs Automatic vs Automatic hubs

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Eric VanBuren

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Ok here is a little more info from the '84 Warn catalog, Hub service kits and what hubs they fit.
Those in bold are known IH labled aplications M251 is unknown application, the others are Toyota. The drag shoes are the same amongst the IH applications though the nuts are a 3 different dia so the other kits MAY be a source of drag shoes for IH apps

  • Kit #- Hub #s
  • 7303 10 spline: M3, M6, 27 spline: M178, M196 IH kit# 465 830 c91
  • 7304 19 spline: M10,A,B,C,D, M15, ??spline: M31, 10 spline: M208 IH kit# 465 831 c91
  • 7306 M84
  • 7312*19 spline: M75A,B,C,D, M90 A,B,C,D
  • 9452 M240
  • 9497*19 spline: M75E
  • 9502 27 spline: M241, M242
  • 9763 M251


Note this is a service kit interchangeability the M3, M6 for example are S80/800 while the M178, M196 are SII, some different innards, some same innards, same gaskets, shoes, ect so they are a valid parts source for each other for some parts. As far as I can tell M240 and above are Automatics the others Lock-O-Matic.

Though not really part of this discussion, here are Warn hub kit#s for the manual hubs again known IH labeled apps and kit # are in bold.
  • Kit #- Hub #s
  • premium
  • 7300 10 spline: M54, M154, 27 spline: M195, M204
  • 7301 19 spline:*M167, M169, M198, M198A, M203, M203A, IH# 465 828 C91
  • 7302 19 spline: M166, M168, M197, M197A, M202, ??spline : M229
  • 7307 10 spline: M1, M2
  • 7308 19 spline: M5, M7, IH# 465 833 C91
  • 9547 19 spline: M198B
  • standard
  • 9590 M243, M245, 27 spline: M244, M258 IH# 577 227 C91
  • 9780 10 spline: M252, M252A
  • 11967 M246, M247, M248, M249, M268

10 spline are S80/800 and jeep applications with the exception of M208: jeep 3/4 ton D44, 27 spline SII and CJ, and 19 spline FS D44's external and internal*
Again if anyone knows the M# for any other of the IH labeled applications or has the IH service kit #s please let me know so I can add it to this list.
 
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Milo Holroyd

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My 1964 C-1200 4X4 Travelette has IH labeled Lock-O-Matic stamped M10C.
I can take a pic and post it if needed.

Peace
Milo

I need to clarify my post. The M10C hub is on the right front.
I also have a M10A on the left front. The internals are very different.
I believe the reason for the two dissimilar hubs can be attributed to repairs.
The inside of the right front wheel hub has extensive damage from a Lock-O-Matic grenade. :oops: Hence the newer part number, and different internals.

Peace
Milo
 

Eric VanBuren

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I need to clarify my post. The M10C hub is on the right front.
I also have a M10A on the left front. The internals are very different.
I believe the reason for the two dissimilar hubs can be attributed to repairs.
The inside of the right front wheel hub has extensive damage from a Lock-O-Matic grenade. :oops: Hence the newer part number, and different internals.

Peace
Milo

I'll post some pics of the M10 "D"s that I have I have 4 outers all labeled D but I have 2 inners that have a plastic bushing that locates the hub in the auto body and 1 where it is located by a bearing made by Heim. The outer auto body appears to be the same. Here is a pic of some labled M10B where it is located by a shim like the M178 except that it is scaloped on it's inner dia. The bushing and bearing versions use a deep recess and the manual portion (and drag shoe spring) hold it in place. The shim uses a spirolox to retain it like the M178 I have pictured.

Off the top of your head do any of those sound like your A or C?

Pic #1 Some 10B that were factory serviced by Warn in 1967, you can sort of see the scalloped washer and spirolox.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Before we start assembling the outer manual portions a little history first.

Arthur Warn worked at Boeing and had a surplus Jeep. He grew tired of changing U-joints and the extra drag, vibration, and wear of spinning the front axle and drive shaft all the time. He got a spare pair of drive flanges from one of the many surplus stores that popped up around Seattle. "After work" he machined the splines out of the center and fitted them to his rig. They proved his concept and soon he was fitting sacrificial bushings and selling them to local Jeep owners. They were a success and in 1948 he set about to produce them from scratch, early ones relied on the bushing but I have seen pics that indicate some were equipped with a bearing to support the axle.

Pic #1 is an ad from MotorTrend in 1954

Pic #2 is a set of them in their display/carring case. Note the difference in outer cap design between these and the next pics.

Pic #3 an internal shot

Pic #4 an external shot

Pic #5 an early competitor, These were left and right hand and you knocked off the outer cap installed the clutch and reinstalled the cap.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Spurned on in part I suspect by competitors like the the Huffman, and in part by the pain of changing out the freewheeling hubs when 4wd was desired, Warn set about to design something better. By 1956 he created the first locking hub, later given the stamp M1 for the IH marked units and M2 for the Warn. For what ever reason he again tired of having to get out and turn the dial when he only wanted 4wd for a minute and by 1959 the M3 Lock-O-Matic was introduced.

The M3 used the same outer manual portion as the M1/M2 but included a new auto portion instead of the freewheel section. The M1/M2's basic design and most of it's basic parts became the basis for all of the early Warn hubs. These scans are from a old Jeep parts catalog so they do not list the IH#'s that are identical other than the name and number on the dial. Note 1 part the dust seal #206 4000 interchanges between all models pictured, and all manual body parts are interchangeable between the M1/M2 Locking and the M3 et. al Lock-O-Matic.


Pic #1 exploded view of M2 and IH labled M1 They show different set screws and lock washers for the drag shoe nut, the early version using unslotted holes in the washer and a different point on the set screw? By '84 the drag shoe nut kits were consolidated to the later style.

Pic #2 exploded view of the M3 and M196 and thus the M6 and M178

Pic #3 exploded view of what is now called the "premium" or spring lock M54 & M195, and thus the M154 & M204

Pic #4 shows the Automatic M241 and thus the M242 in its original version with the plastic clutch ring retainer that we will discuss and show more later.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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In 1959 Warn had their first locking hub on the market and sales were strong enough that Warn had the $$ to develop and introduce their first electric winch.

Enter IH, in sizing up their competitor the Jeep Universal they obviously payed attention to it's customers, how they used and MODIFIED their rigs. Warn's locking hubs caught their attention and included the M1 on their option list making Warn's first OEM sale, and in the process started Warn's use of model # designations.

With IH under their belt they sold the M4 to Ford in 1961 and soon IH was back at their door. This time IH wanted something for their full size and the M5 locking and their own version of the Lock-O M6 for the S80, the M7 was a Warn branded version of the M5. M8?? M9?? IH was soon buying the M10 Lock-O for their FS applications again preceding the Warn Branded M15. IH was Warn's biggest customer!


So now we know that the initial hubs up to around M-47 and a few later #s use the same basic design of the M1/M2 with the difference in the outer portion being the BC and overall dia of the body and in some cases a larger dial. So the following assembly procedure is valid for virtually all external mount non-spring lock hubs, Lock-O-Matic or manual.

Pic #1 Before the history lesson ends however one more pic of the M1 with the sacrificial bushings

Pic #2 all the parts cleaned and ready to assemble, ok the body isn't fully cleaned as these are being dry assembled for the pics.

Pic #3 install the dust seal first, it is a square cut V-ring and the groove faces out again these can be sourced from virtually any SI/II Warn/IH hubs, and many others.

Pic #4 shows the o-ring on the back of the dial, A thin film of grease on this and the other seal before inserting it in the body is all that is required.

Pic #5 shows the drive screw and dial assembled outside of the body to see the order dial, O-ring, (hub body), disc, drive screw, bolt.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Pic #1 shows the dial assembled in the body. Note on some of the hubs I have the bolt that attaches the drive screw to the dial is notched and the screw is peened to lock it in place, on others there is evidence of a yellow locktite.

Pic #2 to install the clutch ring place the dial in the Free position first, then thread the clutch ring on COUNTER Clockwise until it stops.

Pic #3 rotate the clutch ring clockwise until the semi-circles in the ring line up with those in the body.

Pic #4 insert the rollers into the circles formed by the body and ring I like to install them at 12, 6, 3, and 9 O'clock to center the ring and then fill in from there.

Pic #5 turn the dial to the lock position and the hub should look like this, it appears that the ring is just engaged 1 thread, and the ring is slightly below the body surface.

Now you have a fully assembled Lock-O-Matic Or pre-spring lock manual body. Again all contact areas between the parts should be covered with a thin film of grease. BTW IH recommends a lithium based grease in the FSM. The rollers will fall out if they aren't greased, and sometimes if they are greased so caution is advisable when removing or handling them. This is one case where to much grease will cause a problem however. If the cavity is packed with grease you will need to force that grease through the clutch ring every time you turn the dial. Not a big problem with this style clutch ring but earlier versions have only 4 holes drilled all the way through.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Ok now for a look at the Automatic manual portion

Pic #1 shows the typical box of parts one may recieve when purchasing a "complete set" on E-bay, not pictured is the drag shoe nuts that were in this case included though missing some set screws. One side was "untouched" but the other they decided to disassemble both the auto and manual portions. Breaking the centering spring on the auto portion and as Craig noted failed to understand the concept of removing the locating pin until after bending the clutch ring retainer to get the manual portion apart. Eventually they removed and lost the pin.

Pic #2 show the mangled clutch ring retainer, it may be salvagable.

Pic #3 shows the change between the initial production of the M242 and the later version. According to Howard Pletcher's account at OldIHC.org the Automatic Hub was made available in the 77 model year and the later version was introduced on the production line as of 3/6/78. On the left the later metal ring and the shorter spring, on the right the plastic version with it's corresponding longer spring. This plastic ring is the most suspect part amongst all the different versions of this hub. It is interesting that it did not warrant a Suffix designation as so many other hubs did over the years. This plastic ring is the likely cause of many complaints of hubs that won't disengage no matter what is done with the dial. This could also be the source of the "it was in the unlocked position, it made a "pop" and it was locked". The one in my posession came with a unit that had the metal version, I suspect that very few of the plastic versions are still out there even fewer that are still intact.

Pic #4 show the pin that must be removed to properly disassemble the Auto's manual portion, sorry for the poor focus, Mama won't let me touch the good camera. To gain better access to remove the pin you can place the hub in the Auto postion or place in the Lock position and depress the clutch ring.

Pic #5 shows the pin removed and a pick in the position it came from. To remove the ring turn the dial to the Lock position while leaving the pick in place. Depress the clutch ring and with the pic turn the retaining ring clockwise with the pick, until it is free, If you got the dial all the way to Lock it should only be a 1/2 turn or less.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Pic #1 remove the retainer, clutch ring and spring from the body.

Pic #2 you can sort of see the snap ring that retains the dial in the body. I have found that it works best to get up on one side and unthread it.

Pic #3 shows the dial and the dust seal removed from the body and the snap ring reinstalled in the position I use to "unthread" it.

Pic #4 a better shot of the snap ring w/o grease on the lens, no wonder Mama makes me use the old camera.

Now you have properly disassembled the M242 or M241 These procedures should also apply to the M240 and M251.
 

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Eric VanBuren

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Thanks Milo, it is starting to make some sense, I'll include those pics if I may to show the differences between the A, B, C, D suffix, when I get to the parts interchange.
 

Milo Holroyd

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Eric, feel free to use any of the pic's. I just now finished uploading the M10C hub pic's.
at the same link.

Peace
Milo
 

Hop Martin

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@Eric VanBuren & BB Contributors to this thread:

I put together the information from this thread into a word doc and then saved it as a pdf. It's got the color pics for each step all on the same pages as the relevant descriptions/instructions, re-sized a little for brevity and clarity. Each page is letter sized/portrait layout. So far, it's 43 pages long and covers both the automatic and lock-o-matic style hubs. I corrected all the spelling/grammar errors except one. (I dare you.)

I'm offering to send the whole shebang to you for your thumbs up or down re: sharing the pdf/zip file with the community. I don't have a way to host it for file-sharing currently, but if you're okay with it, and someone here 'steps up' (edstarnes of SEBA just volunteered) I'd be happy to share what I've done to bring together all of your hard work and research. I can also provide the word doc if you want to change anything. I'm not proud, just trying to help organize and say THANK YOU!

Whaddya say?
 

Phil

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Mr. Hop Martin-
I would very much like a copy of your file if you please. Thank you for your compilation, and to Eric VanBuren & BB Contributors for this thread, lots of great useful info.
Phil . . .
 

old blue 76

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All this info is absolutely vital for troubleshooting, servicing and repairing these things. I've been getting into my locko's recently and honestly the only thing the manual has been good for is providing the names of the different parts. The manual describes how to take the thing apart....that's the easy part. I have keep a binder with all the really practical info from threads like this, I use it more often than the manual.

That reminds me.... it's time to become a supporter here. Thanks again guys.
 

Hop Martin

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pdf of Eric VanBuren's Hub Reference v12-5-08 emailed to binderbulletin supplied email addresses of Eric VanBuren & edstarnes.

:rockon:
 

Eric VanBuren

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Hold up guys, I have received Hop's version and have gone over it. I do have some new info I learned along the way and I am going make a couple of corrections based on the new info and get it back to Hop. I also need to do the Automatic's manual portion instructions and drag shoe nut R&I.

With the graciousness of edstarnes we will get it hosted so that you can download it from there, saving Hop from having to send it to everyone. When that is done we'll get a link in this thread. In the mean time I will work on getting the rest of it done.
 

David Fulford

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Good stuff fellas.

FYI you can attach a .pdf, .doc, or .zip file inside a thread post.

Other valid file extensions include .bmp .gif .jpe .jpeg .jpg .mpg .png .psd .txt .wpd .xls .xml

-D
 

Thomas

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---This thread is looking great!

-Eric,

---I never remember to check when I have my hubs apart. Can you please give specifications on the spanner wrench? What size pins and diameter between pin centers?
 
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