BinderPlanet.com

Welcome to BinderPlanet.com the World's Premier IH Website.

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

IH 7.3 to IH 5spd?

Binder TV

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
I've been scratching my head (and searching the net), trying to figure out how to mate a 6.9/7.3 block to a SAE (I think SAE#3) bellhousing with an IH 5spd.

What I've found is that some 7.3s in medium duty IH applications had AT545s mated to them. I'm relatively confident the AT545 has a SAE#3 bellhousing pattern. This makes me believe that there's a flywheel housing for Ford transmissions (ZF/E4OD pattern) and there must also be a flywheel housing for an SAE pattern.

If this is true, you should be able to bolt a 7.3 block to any older 5spd (IH, Spicer, Clark, etc) using this medium duty application flywheel housing and a SAE bellhousing.

Then there's the flywheel and clutch setup, but I think I can figure that out if I can get the engine bolted to the trans.

Do any of you guys have any info on this? If so, point me in the right direction!

-Jeff
 

Eric VanBuren

Lives in an IH Dealership
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
6,011
Points
38
Location
Maple Valley , Wa
In Ford apps they used a 460 pattern housing and on the MD IH they used a SAE housing for the rigs with the Allison but I can't tell you the pattern# but they are 545's.
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
Well, from everything I can find, the AT545 has an SAE#3.

I found this thread that implies that all IH 7.3s had a #2 flywheel housings and there's a #2 to #3 adapter to enable use of the AT545 http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63720

So, an SAE#2 or #3 bellhousing/trans should work if you can find the right parts (i.e. flywheel housing/adapter) and correct clutch setup.

FYI, I'm trying to figure out how to mate a 7.3 (preferably from a Ford donor) to a T-36.
 
Last edited:

CareyWeber

Diesel Herder / Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Messages
3,814
Points
38
Location
Ridgeway, SC
Jeff,

I think that the back of the block mounting surface on the 6.9/7.3/444 engines whether in a Ford or IH/Navstar application are the same. What is different is the adapter that is bolted to the block.

You'll need to find an adapter from a IH/Navstar truck and bolt it to the 7.3. I'm not sure if it's SAE 2 or 3, but this chart should help.
6SAEchart.gif


There are lots of IH S series trucks out there that used the 6.9/7.3/444 engines. The newer trucks like the 4300/4900 may have the six ot seven speed tranys that would be nice IMHO.

Carey
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
I think the flywheel housing (adapter) on the back of the 6.9/7.3 is an SAE#2.

On a similar topic, does anyone know if the Spicer 3x5x transmissions have the same bolt pattern as the IH T-3x?
 

Eric VanBuren

Lives in an IH Dealership
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
6,011
Points
38
Location
Maple Valley , Wa
Well, from everything I can find, the AT545 has an SAE#3.

I found this thread that implies that all IH 7.3s had a #2 flywheel housings and there's a #2 to #3 adapter to enable use of the AT545 http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63720

So, an SAE#2 or #3 bellhousing/trans should work if you can find the right parts (i.e. flywheel housing/adapter) and correct clutch setup.

FYI, I'm trying to figure out how to mate a 7.3 (preferably from a Ford donor) to a T-36.

Well the half a dozen S-series and 3x00 rigs at work with the 7.3 and 545 have no additional adapters, just the bellhousing bolted to the block and the trans connected to the bellhousing.
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
Well the half a dozen S-series and 3x00 rigs at work with the 7.3 and 545 have no additional adapters, just the bellhousing bolted to the block and the trans connected to the bellhousing.

So does the 545 have a typical integral bellhousing with a round SAE pattern? If so, it should look like this ...
http://www.industrialautomatic.com/html/at545.htm

From what I've been reading, for a medium duty 7.3/545 IH app, there are essentially two peices. One is the flywheel housing (7.3 to SAE) and includes the starter, the other is the transmission.

Can you snap a photo?
 

CareyWeber

Diesel Herder / Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Messages
3,814
Points
38
Location
Ridgeway, SC
From what I've been reading, for a medium duty 7.3/545 IH app, there are essentially two peices. One is the flywheel housing (7.3 to SAE) and includes the starter, the other is the transmission.

Can you snap a photo?

Bingo if it's SAE # XYZ then it has two pieces the adapter from the engine to SAE that is the flywheel housing and then there it the transmission adapter to SAE # XYZ.

Bolted together in this order.
Engine Block - Flywheel Housing - Transmission adapter - Transmission

Carey
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
So, is there an IH-T3x to SAE #2 or #3 bellhousing out there? If so, I'd love to have one.

If not, does the IH-T3x bolt to the same Spicer 3x5x SAE bellhousings? Like the ones from military apps?

I've heard that the 6.9/7.3 block is "similar" to the MV series gas V8s. If so, is there an MV to T-3x bellhousing that would go directly between the 7.3 and T-36? Ken (IHWillys) seems to think so.

If non of the options above are available, I'd go with a complete manual setup from an S series, including ...

- 7.3 to SAE flywheel housing & flywheel
- Spicer 3152A or Clark 267V (close ratio direct 5th) with matching bell housing and SAE adapter
- all the appropriate clutch parts

Anyone have one of these combos laying around???
 
Last edited:

WRENCH MAN

Dreams of Cub Cadets
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Messages
4,425
Points
63
Location
Eugene Orygun

Attachments

  • bellhousing 016.jpg
    bellhousing 016.jpg
    146 KB · Views: 59
  • bellhousing 017.jpg
    bellhousing 017.jpg
    130.2 KB · Views: 54
  • bellhousing 020.jpg
    bellhousing 020.jpg
    127 KB · Views: 43

Eric VanBuren

Lives in an IH Dealership
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
6,011
Points
38
Location
Maple Valley , Wa
So does the 545 have a typical integral bellhousing with a round SAE pattern? If so, it should look like this ...
http://www.industrialautomatic.com/html/at545.htm

From what I've been reading, for a medium duty 7.3/545 IH app, there are essentially two peices. One is the flywheel housing (7.3 to SAE) and includes the starter, the other is the transmission.

Can you snap a photo?

Yeah I can snap a couple of photos but I am not going to be a work until Wed and those rigs won't necessarily be at my disposa,l since they are IH's we usually only see them for oil changes. We also have a F53 that has a hack job Allison install to replace it's E4OD, but again I don't see it that offten, most of my day is spent with the Chev/GMC P30s.
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
I havent confirmed that this will fit my T36 but it is an SAE #2

It has the 6 hole pattern that's consistent with the T-36. Here's an SV bell with a T-36 ... looks the same as yours except it's not SAE and doesn't have the starter bump.

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87096

The Spicer 3152 to SV bell I have looks the same as the T-36 bell, but the 2 lower holes are blank (i.e. filled). In case anyone cares, the T-36 bell shown above was connected to a flywheel housing on a 354 Perkins. I think it was an original IH application Perkins, probably from a Loadstar.

Wrenchman, would you like to sell that SAE bellhousing??? If not, where could I find one? i.e. in what application?
 

WRENCH MAN

Dreams of Cub Cadets
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Messages
4,425
Points
63
Location
Eugene Orygun
My T-36 has the common bellhousing shown in the link/other thread, it came from a Loadstar.
NO, I don't want to sell it, I may need it if I ever get a diesel!, I got this one from a pile of bellhousings at a truck wrecking yard so I really have no idea what it came from?
 

CareyWeber

Diesel Herder / Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 23, 2001
Messages
3,814
Points
38
Location
Ridgeway, SC

Attachments

  • 62db_20.jpg
    62db_20.jpg
    49.5 KB · Views: 58
  • 627f_20.jpg
    627f_20.jpg
    56 KB · Views: 55
  • 7fc7_20a.jpg
    7fc7_20a.jpg
    76.5 KB · Views: 60
Last edited:

Eric VanBuren

Lives in an IH Dealership
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
6,011
Points
38
Location
Maple Valley , Wa
The 7.3 is based on the MV block 404, so if you found a 404 bellhousing you might be able to use it. I think SAE is a better way to go though.

The MV bellhousing mounting is the same as the "T" since the engines were designed together with common front and rear interfaces, mountings ect, to require a minimum of unique parts. Even the water pump is the same in IH applications. So unless you get really lucky finding one on a T will be many times more likely than the way less common MV.

Jeff, sorry I haven't got a pic yet of a factory IH to Allison set up yet, but as expected I was busy fixing Chevys. The only IH that needed service this week was DT powered, and the only reason it was in because the idiot driver broke the TS lever clean off somehow.

Hopefully next week a "T" powered IH, or better yet the Allison converted Ford, will be due for a LOF. Or the Chevys won't break so much, I know keep dreaming, and I'll have the time to go tilt the hood on one of the "T" powered spares.
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
The MV bellhousing mounting is the same as the "T" since the engines were designed together with common front and rear interfaces, mountings ect, to require a minimum of unique parts. Even the water pump is the same in IH applications. So unless you get really lucky finding one on a T will be many times more likely than the way less common MV.

I assume T = 6.9 or 7.3.

I'd heard the MV bell housing may be a solution to this. As you've noted I also hear these are rare. So, If I found an MV bell, wouldn't I also need a starter and flywheel for that application to make this work? Are the MV and T flywheels the same?

Eric, are you saying that some early Ts may have an MV bell housing? Do you know what years? Would this be mated to the later model T-495 or T-496?

Sorry for all the questions, this kinda info just isn't readily available online.

Carey - Thanks for the pics. Do you know what transmission they used there? I thought the ZF had an integral bell housing. So, maybe a T-19?
 
Last edited:

stu simpson

High Wheeler
Joined
Dec 15, 2004
Messages
1,953
Points
0
Location
portsmouth, nh
I assume T = 6.9 or 7.3.

I'd heard the MV bell housing may be a solution to this. As you've noted I also hear these are rare. So, If I found an MV bell, wouldn't I also need a starter and flywheel for that application to make this work? Are the MV and T flywheels the same?

Eric, are you saying that some early Ts may have a one piece bell housing on them, same as the MVs did? Do you know what years? Would this be mated to the later model T-3x, known as T-43x?

Sorry for all the questions, this kinda info just isn't readily available online.

Carey - Thanks for the pics. Do you know what transmission they used there? I thought the ZF had an integral bell housing. So, maybe a T-19?

I am now convinced you should ditch all that other stuff for a Spicer 6-plus from behind a T444E from a 4700. It would bolt right up to a 6.9/7.3 and give you a good granny and OD. I would seriously consider buying that T36 from you if you did it for my 1510. If not maybe I'll go that route eventually in the Travelall with the 7.3 from my van...the ZF is a good idea too. I think you might be chasin' ghosts here.
 

Jeff Joyce

Binder Driver
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
732
Points
16
Location
Raleigh, NC
I am now convinced you should ditch all that other stuff for a Spicer 6-plus from behind a T444E from a 4700. It would bolt right up to a 6.9/7.3 and give you a good granny and OD. I would seriously consider buying that T36 from you if you did it for my 1510. If not maybe I'll go that route eventually in the Travelall with the 7.3 from my van...the ZF is a good idea too. I think you might be chasin' ghosts here.


7 gears, bring it on! I'm sure that a Spicer 6+1 is going to be pricey, likely considerably more than a running 7.3. Let me know if you see any available.

I'm not set on any particular transmission, but I'd like to use what I've got if I can. The T-36 is in place and working. Anything else will likely require driveshaft mods, which can get expensive.

I'll have some time to locate my engine-trans interface parts while I take care of some body work. Plenty of time to chase ghosts ;)

I also looked at what it takes to use my Spicer 3152 behind a cummins, ~$1000 in housings, adapters, flywheel before I even get the engine or a starter.
 
Last edited:

Eric VanBuren

Lives in an IH Dealership
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
6,011
Points
38
Location
Maple Valley , Wa
Yes by the "T" series engines I mean those also known as the 6.9, 420, 421, 7.3I, 444, 445, depending on if it was originally installed in a IH or Ford chassis.

For some reason IH rounded the CI down while Ford rounded it up which is a change since the SV we know as a 392 is actually a 391 which is reflected on some intake gaskets, when you follow the standard mathematical convention of rounding. The "392" actually displaces 391.47 IIRC cubic inches.

Back to your question I don't know if the flywheels interchange between the MV and T, my gut instinct, based on the other parts interchangeability says yes, and it will almost certainly bolt on, but I don't know if the balance is the same.

Here is a shot from the IH service manual showing the rt rear of an MV engine with the SAE bellhousing attached, from my recolection it is at least similar to that used on IH app "T", note that it is much deeper than the 460 pattern unit and includes the side mount bosses as well as the starter mount which does take MD industry standard Delco MT series starter.

http://www.tpub.com/content/firetru...210-230-14P-1/css/TM-5-4210-230-14P-1_633.htm

http://www.tpub.com/content/firetru...210-230-14P-1/css/TM-5-4210-230-14P-1_650.htm

http://www.tpub.com/content/firetru...210-230-14P-1/css/TM-5-4210-230-14P-1_651.htm

and the first page of the MV manual

http://www.tpub.com/content/firetru...210-230-14P-1/css/TM-5-4210-230-14P-1_630.htm

If you peruse the manual further you will note a number of interchangable parts between the MV and the T engines

You will also find that many of the gaskets are the same including the rear main seal set, oil pan
 
Last edited:
Top