Hot Start Issues AGAIN??

[NC Scout]

Thanks everyone for your input. Below is some photos of the carb. I've been traveling for work a lot so havent had a lot of time to respond, sorry it has taken so long.

The PO said that the carb was rebuilt. It runs so well other than the hot start, that I hate to mess with it, but would definitely like to fix this issue.

I do not know what type of carb this is, other than Holley.

Carb Back

Carb Spacer

Carb Driver Side

Carb Front

Carb Passenger Side

Carb Wording

 

[scoutboy74]

Thanks for the pics. Its a Holley model 2300 list 6207. The other number is an IH part#. This carb was standard on 345 engines with manual transmission from 1970-72. It has a hot air automatic choke. Looks like the choke plate has been rubbing on the inside of the airhorn wall. This probably isn't related to your issue, but you might want to make sure that the plate is not binding up at all and can open/close freely.
Curious that your fuel bowl appears different than any of the 2300 fuel bowls I've seen. I was expecting to see a removable brass sight plug on the passenger side of the bowl and float needle adjustment screw/locknut combo on the topside. Apparently this carb doesn't have an adjustable float needle, or at least its not adjustable in the manner I'm accustomed to. That's an oddity. I'd be real curious to have a peeksee inside that fuel bowl.

 

[NC Scout]

Scoutboy74, thanks for your identification. As mentioned, the carb was rebuilt by the PO, and I don't necessarily trust everything that he did. The truck came with another float bowl that matches the carb in color and is probably what came on the carb originally. Unfortunately, I'm out of town for a week so do not have access for pictures or to check for sight hole plugs or float adjustment screws.

If there is no float adjustment, it could be that it sits way too high and is letting fuel seep by after cutoff. I'm going to get a full rebuild kit, take it off and do it right with the original bowl.

Also, my truck is a 1971 345/727, did this carb only come on manuals or autos also.

 

[scoutboy74]

Anything is possible, but the carb data sheet that I sourced this information from says "AT" on the carb models that originally came with auto equipped vehicles. With 40 years gone by, who knows what parts have been swapped around from where and by whom. 727 huh? Are you absolutely positive on that? I don't doubt that you can tell the difference between an auto and a manual, but could your trans actually be a Borg Warner? If the trans is original to the truck, then it would be the BW11, as the 727 came along a year or two later. If it is in fact a 727, then some PO has swapped it in. If that is the case, they left out a very critical component to the functionality and longevity of the 727. That being what is commonly referred to as the kickdown linkage. More accurately, this assembly controls hydraulic pressure inside the transmission during all driving conditions. Not having this item hooked up and adjusted properly is murder-death-kill on the 727. On the BW autos, this function is accomplished with a vacuum modulator and there is a kickdown switch under the accelerator pedal that actives downshifts in response to pedal pressure, so no linkage connected to the carb is necessary. The easiest way to tell which auto you have is to get underneath and look. The 727 is a one piece-cast aluminum case, and the Borg is a two-piece steel unit. Post a picture if you need further help with identification.

I am fully on board with your plan to re-kit the carb and ensure that the proper fuel bowl is in place. I am optimistic that doing so will give you good results.

 

[NC Scout]

Well I ASSuMEd that it was a 727 because it was a Scout II. There is no kick down linkage on the carb (that I know of), but since I'm out of town, I can't confirm with a picture or visual at this time. The transmission is a three speed and works flawlessly!

This truck appears to be all original on most items. The only thing that I know has been removed are the hubs and carburetor. The brakes have never even been turned, could be original pads and shoes also. I did change them out recently though.

I was able to talk to the original owners wife and she has confirmed the 49K original miles. She sold it five years ago not running with around 45K when the original owner died. There is a glovebox full of paperwork that shows mileage at different intervals to confirm. There were two owners afterwards that basically resold it after a year.

The Scout has disk front brakes also, was that original to 1971? They sure did seem original when I did a axle ujoint and bearing rebuild, nothing had been apart.

The engine needs to be removed for new seals and gaskets all around, it leaks oil at a good rate, so under the truck is nasty gobs of caked on dirty oil. I might not even be able to tell if the transmission is a one piece or two piece, aluminum or steel. I guess I could look for a kick down switch under the accelerator peddle.

 

[scoutboy74]

Disk brake front axles weren't available as an option until the '74 model year, and became standard equipment from '75 forward. So there's two possibilities. 1. Some PO swapped a Dana 44 FA from a later year Scout, or 2. Some PO performed a disk brake conversion to the stock Dana 30 FA. Again, this will be easy for you to suss out when next you get a chance by looking at the shape of the diff cover. You can google images of both Dana 30 and Dana 44 axles and compare to what you have.

A 727 that's missing the needed linkage will upshift into high gear very rapidly even under hard acceleration and won't downshift at all in response to increased throttle pressure. No passing gear in other words. So if yours shifts well and it kicks down when you drop the hammer, you've got a BW under there. Because I can clearly see from the pics that you don't have the linkage in place for the 727 kickdown, so that dog just wouldn't hunt.

 

[NC Scout]

I do know that it is a Dana 30 front. So I guess someone converted to disk. Are the aftermarket conversions the same as the stock setup.

 

[scoutboy74]

That I don't know. The d30 FA's that did come with disk brakes as an option are very few and far between and would have only been in model year '74 which was a transition year for front axles on the Scout. There were also a scant few d44 FA's that came with drum brakes that year. The vast majority were set up with disk brakes.

 

[Houston]

looks like an electric choke is also on the carb? but i dont see any wires. I suspect someone has made a few alterations along the way.

 

[scoutboy74]

As I stated earlier, the choke is a hot air choke. No electricity involved. It works off of heated air which travels up through the insulated metal tube running between the thermal housing on the carb and a port on the passenger side exhaust manifold.

 

[Bill Bennett]

That is really a nasty looking fuel bowl!! Definately not original to the rest of the carb. I wonder if the carb was parts carb? I run a similar carb with the hot air choke but the idle mix adjustments are on the side of the metering body - not on the throttle body. The 'dashpot' on the driver side doesn't look like it is functional.

 

[Houston]

scoutboy74, that could be, it looks different that the hot air choke I have had on my previous scouts, and mightly similar to the electric choke on modern edlebrock 14** series carbs.

 

[scoutboy74]

I dunno Houston. I don't see any provision for electrical connections on that thermal cap, but I do see the hot air tube connected. Would be easy to convert it to an electric with a Holley kit, but if the hot air plumbing is still functional there's not much to be gained by the conversion.

 

[Thomas]

-Oh lordy lordy,

---It's way too hard to type on a cell, so I will refrain from lengthy explainations about computer lingo/etiquette and how an asterisk is used to stress* a word and screaming is done in all upper case. Hence why most screamers are overlooked. However, the issue here I believe is 100% aspiration ... I mean fuel, not the promising will to learn.

---It is true that the fuel bowl is incorrect. The metering plate's numbers don't matc either but that doesn't mean it is incorrect because sometimes* they don't. You'll have to search the board for that list number or even contact someone like M. Mayben (who may have been recording part numbers for the past few years) & there's a real slim possibility that Holley will know what metering plate is correct. Yes, all the stamped numerals mean something, no, even though the 2300 has been my.carb, my favorite, of choice for some 20+ years (on many makes), I don't have a list of part numbers.

---Your Base Plate gasket is correct, though I would suggest a new one. Look at post # 10 of the [URL="http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=64838&postcount=10]Useful Part Number Thread[/URL] for "alcohol"-rated parts you should add when you rebuild. You will also need the correct Main Body Gasket for that particular Throttle Plate... Seen it before and it's the troublesome one that is near impossible to obtain. When you purchase the rebuild kit (should be 3-888), you will need to post a clear pic of all gaskets so you can be shown which Main Body Gasket to use. Also, no matter who tells you to tighten the screws "until they're about to strip", ignore & discard the info. Contact Holley and ask them for the torque specs & follow them. All overtightening will do is distort and eventually destroy your invaluable carb.

---There are torque specs and sequence for mounting the carb as well. Follow them and not only will you not* damage (crack or warp) the Throttle Plate, but you'll be able to reuse the Base Plate gasket more than once... LOL. Holley will be able to tell you what size jets, power valve, needle & seat and pump discharge nozzle came stock in that Carb as well.

---Choke is set when cold. Loosen the screws, close choke, open choke, close choke, etc.,etc., until it is just* closed, with as little spring tension as possible, keeping it closed. When it heats up, it will open. Needs to be closed when cold. When warm, if not completely open, it will* open more when needed, when carb intake requests it do so, hence the direction & operation of the visible* choke spring on the end of the shaft.

---It is my belief that the problem begins with mis-matched parts and vacuum leaks.

 

[NC Scout]

Ok, update. Sorry it took so long.

I removed the carb, rebuilt, and added a new base gasket. Also the original bowl wasn't used because fuel inlet threads were fubbed real bad and stripped. I used some JB weld on the inlet connector and tapped the threads as good as possible, its never coming off now. After the rebuild, it did the same thing as far as hard warm start until I adjusted the float level correctly which couldn't be done before because there was no window.

Now, cold starts take a few more cranks than before, but still starts up fine with no smoke. The choke closes perfectly when cold and opens when warm. Warm starts are almost immediate with no smoke. Looks like the fuel was overflowing the bowl into the throat and flooding. I did change the oil and didn't find any fuel smell or thinning so all seems fine.

Thanks for all the input.

Next I need to pull the engine and change seals, front and back leak and the bottom of the truck is oily and nasty. Who in the Raleigh area wants to help with that???

 

[sdowney717]

Good, glad you fixed it.
When you said the carb felt cool, I was thinking when gas evaporates it cools down what it evaporates away from, so I was wondering if a carb might feel cool yet still have been hot enough to boil out the fuel.

On my 392's, I have blocked off the exhaust rise passage into the intake manifold.
I also have a 3/4 inch plywood spacer under the carb. I made it myself out of nice piece of finishing ply coated with some epoxy. It is an open spacer that converts spreadbore to squarebore.
Running quadrajet. I found 3/4 is as small as you can go with that and have the secondaries not jam. And I sealed the ply to the intake with rtv red gasket maker and for the carb does not even need a gasket. Perfect seal, perfect vacuum.
And I notice now when the motor is running, the carb feels cold and the intake feels hot. Not cold enough for carb icing to occur.

 

[Thomas]

---Glad to hear you got it all sorted out. Welcome the the 2300 club and since you're new, don't let anyone tell you the carb is junk (in any form of the word), don't mix-match parts (always check casted numbers, and perform a detailed comparison, before swapping) and don't believe there is a better carb out there than a modular. Get to know your carb and you might possibly even decide to create a decal for your window, of Calvin whizzing on TBI/EFI.

 

[NC Scout]

Thomas, I am a efi guy also, but agree that when tuned, this is an excellent carb. I am very impressed with the ease of adjustment and simplicity of the design.

I previously transplanted a Ford Zetek 2.0 with factory EFI into a VW based dune buggy because of constant carb issues. That thing weighed 1150 lbs and would do a burn out in third easy. It had a Suzuki GXR1000 exhaust and sounded awesome. I loved it with the stock Ford FI. Heres a pic. It wouldnt hold all three kids and the wife so I sold it. Sold it with the Zetec transplant for $9500.