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!!HELP!! Is my timken SET 10 in backwards?

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josh_sorrell

Farmall Cub
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
14
Points
1
Location
st louis, mo
Alright I have searched these threads 'ad nauseum' and have not come across this question, or a picture to reference. Hopefully I will be able to manipulate my computer to post the picture. I am replacing my wheel bearing.
Per majority opinion, I purchased a new retainer plate from SSS, Timken SET 10 bearings, and Chicago Rawhide seal. I take it all to the local parts store with a press, and leave the axle shaft etc. He does the job looks fine. I get home and open up my trusty IH Scout II Truck Service Manual. I compare the picture to what I have in front of me. It appears that my bearings are reversed. In the manual, it appears that the inner cone has a ridge that meets the outer diameter of the race, this is all one unit when installed and breaks free upon installation. Well it looks like the race is facing the outside of the axle, by comparison.
So I return the next morning to the parts store with my axle and my manual. The guy says there is only one way that the bearing meets the hub end. He pulls another bearing from the racks and shows me where the bearing meets the axle, it is bevelled on one side. I am at a loss for words here, but the bearing mates up to the curved edge of the axle shaft and hub. And the other flat edge fits up to the flat edge of the retainer ring. He explains the variance in the shop book as it's a newer type of bearing. He makes a convincing argument, so I leave.
But I am concerned still that the race will be sitting in backwards. I hope I have made sense. I will send this then attempt to add pics. Maybe you guys have seen this or know of a newer SET 10. Thanks.
 

josh_sorrell

Farmall Cub
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
14
Points
1
Location
st louis, mo
 

Bill Hartson

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Nov 16, 2001
Messages
416
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Location
Houston, Texas
josh_sorrell said:
Alright I have searched these threads 'ad nauseum' and have not come across this question, or a picture to reference. Hopefully I will be able to manipulate my computer to post the picture. I am replacing my wheel bearing.
Per majority opinion, I purchased a new retainer plate from SSS, Timken SET 10 bearings, and Chicago Rawhide seal. I take it all to the local parts store with a press, and leave the axle shaft etc. He does the job looks fine. I get home and open up my trusty IH Scout II Truck Service Manual. I compare the picture to what I have in front of me. It appears that my bearings are reversed. In the manual, it appears that the inner cone has a ridge that meets the outer diameter of the race, this is all one unit when installed and breaks free upon installation. Well it looks like the race is facing the outside of the axle, by comparison.
So I return the next morning to the parts store with my axle and my manual. The guy says there is only one way that the bearing meets the hub end. He pulls another bearing from the racks and shows me where the bearing meets the axle, it is bevelled on one side. I am at a loss for words here, but the bearing mates up to the curved edge of the axle shaft and hub. And the other flat edge fits up to the flat edge of the retainer ring. He explains the variance in the shop book as it's a newer type of bearing. He makes a convincing argument, so I leave.
But I am concerned still that the race will be sitting in backwards. I hope I have made sense. I will send this then attempt to add pics. Maybe you guys have seen this or know of a newer SET 10. Thanks.

Josh,
Put the axles in and rest easy, your parts guy knows what he is talking about. That is a rarity these days.
This thread makes me smile, I like to see someone doing their homework, taking the information presented here and using it. Especially with this particular topic. As an added bouns confirmation that at least there is still one parts guy out there that knows a thing or two about the parts they sell.

Best Regards,
Bill
 

josh_sorrell

Farmall Cub
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
14
Points
1
Location
st louis, mo
Thanks. I agree, it is a breath of fresh air. He has definately earned my business. So does that mean the cone is indeed pointing outward now? This would help, I guess, if you don't want the shaft coming out upon bearing failure. Or am I ASSuming too much?
 

jordandoc

Binder Driver
Joined
Apr 25, 2003
Messages
740
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43
Location
jordan, mt
I don't have a picture but if you are using a Timken style tapered bearing, the smaller diameter part of the bearing, should taper towards the differential. The outer part of the bearing presses into the axle housing so that when you remove the axle, the outer "race" will remain in the housing.

On a related note, I prefer the non-tapered bearing for the rear axle as in my mind, it seem that there is always "pressure" forcing the axle and bearing towards the outside of the housing. However, the tapered bearing has withstood the test of time.

One more thing; bearings run longer in gear lube that they do in grease. I usually get rid of the inner seal, clean out the axle housing tube, and lube the bearing from the differential. I also use a rear end cover with the fill hole about and inch or so higher than stock.

Dan
 

grainboy

Farmall Cub
Joined
Mar 17, 2004
Messages
130
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0
Location
Goodyear, AZ
Josh, It just looks backwards, with the race stuck to the bearing. I went through the same panic myself. Some older scouts had roller bearings instead of tapered needle type, and probably wont have identical races to the set 10. Trust your machinist. Chances are, it wasn't the first bearing he ever pressed.
 

Will Marsh

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Bill Hartson said:
Josh,
Put the axles in and rest easy, your parts guy knows what he is talking about. That is a rarity these days.
This thread makes me smile, I like to see someone doing their homework, taking the information presented here and using it. Especially with this particular topic. As an added bouns confirmation that at least there is still one parts guy out there that knows a thing or two about the parts they sell.

Best Regards,
Bill
Actually, there are two schools of thought here. Niether one is wrong, just different.

Old style Rear D44's had an inner seal around the axle shaft, and relied on grease to lube the axle bearings pressed on the shaft.

Newer D44's (after '72 or so) left the inner seal out, and relied on gear lube from the diff housing to lube the axle bearings.

Old style requires you to lube the bearings with grease every 25K miles or so, which requires you to pull the axle shafts. To do so, the race HAS to be to the inside (as shown in the Service Manual). Hardly anyone actually does it, though. :(

New style lets the 90w run out to lube them every time you turn a corner. So you never have to pull them unless one fails. And installing them with the cone inside reduces the chances of an axle working its way out if a bearing fails going down the highway. :)

Just make sure the inner seals aren't there and the tubes are clean before you install the new ones, and you'll be fine.

HTH,
 

Jim Grammer

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Will Marsh said:
And installing them with the cone inside reduces the chances of an axle working its way out if a bearing fails going down the highway. :)

Just make sure the inner seals aren't there and the tubes are clean before you install the new ones, and you'll be fine.

Will, I'm confused. Every tapered roller bearing unit I've seen in a non-adjustable(i.e. SII) semi-floating D44 has been installed with the cone pressed onto the axle shaft, skinny end of the taper facing the axle housing. I pulled the instructions out of a new Set 10 I have sitting on the bench, and the diagram shows exactly that installation.

Did I misunderstand something in your post? :confused: :)
 

ScoutmanSV

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Oct 11, 2001
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3,788
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Jim Grammer said:
Will, I'm confused. Every tapered roller bearing unit I've seen in a non-adjustable(i.e. SII) semi-floating D44 has been installed with the cone pressed onto the axle shaft, skinny end of the taper facing the axle housing. I pulled the instructions out of a new Set 10 I have sitting on the bench, and the diagram shows exactly that installation.

Did I misunderstand something in your post? :confused: :)

Ditto :confused: : race in housing, bearing (--collar/bearing/seal/retaining plate-) on axle.

:D
 

Kurt_M

Farmall Cub
Joined
Jan 2, 2002
Messages
372
Points
43
Location
Eastern Colorado
Here is the drawing out of the CTS-2313 manual, helps understand just how it all sits in there when assembled.
bearing.jpg
 
D

Doug Shailor

Guest
josh_sorrell said:
Alright I have searched these threads 'ad nauseum' and have not come across this question, or a picture to reference. Hopefully I will be able to manipulate my computer to post the picture. I am replacing my wheel bearing.
Per majority opinion, I purchased a new retainer plate from SSS, Timken SET 10 bearings, and Chicago Rawhide seal. I take it all to the local parts store with a press, and leave the axle shaft etc. He does the job looks fine. I get home and open up my trusty IH Scout II Truck Service Manual. I compare the picture to what I have in front of me. It appears that my bearings are reversed. In the manual, it appears that the inner cone has a ridge that meets the outer diameter of the race, this is all one unit when installed and breaks free upon installation. Well it looks like the race is facing the outside of the axle, by comparison.
So I return the next morning to the parts store with my axle and my manual. The guy says there is only one way that the bearing meets the hub end. He pulls another bearing from the racks and shows me where the bearing meets the axle, it is bevelled on one side. I am at a loss for words here, but the bearing mates up to the curved edge of the axle shaft and hub. And the other flat edge fits up to the flat edge of the retainer ring. He explains the variance in the shop book as it's a newer type of bearing. He makes a convincing argument, so I leave.
But I am concerned still that the race will be sitting in backwards. I hope I have made sense. I will send this then attempt to add pics. Maybe you guys have seen this or know of a newer SET 10. Thanks.

Josh,

The pic that George posted below is the correct installation of Timken SET10 bearings. The race (or cup) is bonded to the very thin part and will break loose when the bearing is in use. This means the race will stay in the axle housing if you later pull that axle.

I just did this a couple of weeks ago on my '78 SII and have a number of pics I intent to use in an e-Newsletter article. My axle looked exactly like George's pic before I installed it. Actually I have done this to a number of SII rear axle shafts.

I hope you inspected the seal mating surface on the axle shaft. Mine had a distinctive groove cut into it by the lip of the old seal. I installed a Speedi-Sleeve over this groove so it wont cut into the new seal lip. An old groove will eat up a new seal in no time.

I just posted one of my pics in another thread on this subject. Do a search on 99187 and my name as author to find it.
 
D

Doug Shailor

Guest
jordandoc said:
On a related note, I prefer the non-tapered bearing for the rear axle as in my mind, it seem that there is always "pressure" forcing the axle and bearing towards the outside of the housing. However, the tapered bearing has withstood the test of time. Dan

Dan,

I sure hope you don't have to learn this lesson the hard way. A number of folks have posted here over the years about a rear axle shaft with tire attached passing them on the highway. They had believed some counter jock that said A-10 or BR-10 or whatever bearings were the same as Timken SET10's only cheaper. Cheaper being the only true word.

The tapered bearing is designed to handle the side loads that a non-tapered bearing cannot begin to handle. To base a life or death decision on "it seem that" is really throwing the dice with you and your passengers.
 

mesamonster

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Aug 6, 2004
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Abilene, Ks
jordandoc said:
On a related note, I prefer the non-tapered bearing for the rear axle as in my mind, it seem that there is always "pressure" forcing the axle and bearing towards the outside of the housing. However, the tapered bearing has withstood the test of time.
Dan

I HAVE to throw in my .02 here. First off I am not trying to hack anyone off here......... I guess the previous owner of my ...... well what used to be my clean, straight, pretty darn good looking 1980 Scout had the same twisted thought. The rear axle WILL leave the housing without tapered bearings. When my scout took it's sharp right turn, not only was I at highway speed but I was about 10' past a bridge with guard rails that just as well have been made with tooth picks. The axle left me 25 yards or so before the bridge. Now I have some work to do on my not so clean, not so straight, not so good looking in the front, scout with a most likely tweaked frame, and head imprint on my winsheild. I for one think it should be a felony to drive a scout without tapered bearings. Someone is going to die someday because of that.

As for the non-tapered bearing lasting longer due to side load???? I have never heard that before. I think the tapered bearing is designed to handle more side load but I could be wrong. However, I will gladly trade a bearing replacement however often as needed as compared to trading my doctor for an undertaker............
 

josh_sorrell

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Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
14
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Location
st louis, mo
OK here's the verdict.

THE PARTS GUY WAS WRONG.

He had pressed them on backwards. I had to have them redone. If I can ever take the time to figure out how to post a pic. I can show it, but the race was on the hub side and the cone pointing away from the differential. When I asked the guy who removed, and then installed a new set, how this could be done? You know being that the original installer assured me that the rounded edge would only mate up to the flared edge of the hub. He replied, "if you put enough pressure on it you can make it fit."

So another bearing set later, I install the axle shaft to find the hub end is bent, probably from the parts guy "making it fit." So I am out $200 and alot of time. I ended up with a shaft and bearing out of a junk truck and a bad attitude for the parts guy.

Thank you guys for the pics. They verify everything I have been through.
 

DavidWTravelallfan

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Mar 17, 2004
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Acworth Georgia
Sounds like a trip to Harbor Freight to buy a floor press for about 200 dollars and do the work yourself..CANT TRUST NOBODY ANYMORE..I said that so sombody a couple days ago....LOL.
 
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