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drum brake dana 30 to disc brakes

dboy

Farmall Cub
My dana 30 front pass. drum just exploded on me last night, so im looking at doing the disk conv.

ive read the faq and am wondering if blazer rotors would work with my blazer calipers? the blazer ones are just cheaper. thanks. and if anyone else has done this conv. if the could give me some better step by step directions. that would be great. thanks guys.
 

Mark Ashford

Moderator.. or something
Staff member
Moderator
Well, since Blazer rotors are 6-lug, and your stock Scout is 5-lug.... No.



What method are you trying?? There are about 3 ways to do a Disc conversion on a D30 (actually a couple more than 3 if you get picky). Searching should also result in MANY threads on it and a couple piece-by-piece descriptions or ways to go... a few of them by me.
 

Paul LaBar

Farmall Cub
dboy,

I had a Dana 30 closed front that the PO converted to discs. I decided not to use it and pulled the rotors for use on a SII front axle. It turned out that one of the two rotors was actually from a Ford and wouldn't work with a SII caliper.

Couldn't tell you what model Ford this rotor was from, but here's one of several threads indicating that the Ford parts can be combined with Chevy parts to get a 5 on 5 1/2 lug pattern. I'd guess after re-reading the thread below, that an F-150 rotor might work. I don't know whether they're any cheaper new, but they're probably a lot easier to find used. :p

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5745&highlight=Ford+rotors

HTH

Paul :)
 
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Gary Billings

Dreams of Cub Cadets
So, you have a open knuckle Dana 30 from a Scout II I'm assuming...


Like Mark said, you *can* swap over to Chevy hubs/rotors, but then you need 6 lug wheels.

1. If you want to upgrade to internal hubs w/5x5.5 lug pattern using Chevy this is all you need to do:

Find a pair of small-bearing spindles from a full-size Chevy or FSJ.
Find some stub shafts from a Chevy or FSJ
Get some calipers, brake lines & mounting plates from a Chevy
Get a pair of hubs/rotors/locking hubs from a early 80's Ford
Replace the IH stub shaft with the new stub shafts
Redrill the 6 holes in the caliper mounting plate so it is indexed correctly
Bolt everything together.
Replace your proportioning valve & master cylinder with ones from a disc brake equipped Scout II

More info here: http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/flatop_knucles.html

2. Another way to do it...

Find some knuckles/spindles/hubs/rotors from a Scout II Dana 44 front and swap everything out. You can use the Dana 30 stub shaft and locking hubs. Still have to address the prop. valve & m/c.


-Gary
 
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Mark Ashford

Moderator.. or something
Staff member
Moderator
Gary Billings said:
Redrill the 6 holes in the caliper mounting plate so it is indexed correctly

If your using SII D30 knuckles, no need to redrill anything, or atleast not that I remeber....

2. Another way to do it...

Find some knuckles/spindles/hubs/rotors from a Scout II Dana 44 front and swap everything out. You can use the Dana 30 stub shaft and locking hubs. Still have to address the prop. valve & m/c.

You can also combine SII and Chevy/FSJ stuff. This works, *most* of the time... I think there are slight differences in some GM/FSJ caliper brackets as the first set up I did this way required me tweeking the brackets, but others have reported no problems. Just be aware.

Again, searching can bring forth this stuff.
 

Gary Billings

Dreams of Cub Cadets
Mark Ashford said:
If your using SII D30 knuckles, no need to redrill anything, or atleast not that I remeber....

Yeah, you really don't *need* to do it. It'll bolt up just fine. The reason I did it was to get the caliper to sit in the right spot. For example, say you're looking at the pass. side: The Chevy caliper bracket & knuckle holes are in the 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 o'clock positions. The Dana 30 knuckle holes are in the 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11 o'clock positions. If you mount up the caliper bracket without re-indexing the holes, the caliper will be at the 9 or the 11 o'clock position instead of the normal 10 o'clock position. Probably not the biggest deal, but I'm a perfectionist ;) If you do redrill the bracket, you'll also have to clearance the knuckle a little bit for the caliper to fit without rubbing, otherwise run it at the 11 o'clock position and it should be fine.

Mark Ashford said:
I think there are slight differences in some GM/FSJ caliper brackets as the first set up I did this way required me tweeking the brackets, but others have reported no problems. Just be aware.

I've had good luck with the brackets that have the sheet metal dust-guard welded on it rather than the full circle thick ones.

Mark Ashford said:
Again, searching can bring forth this stuff.

Amen, lots of info here and on Pirate as well about this.

-Gary
 
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dboy

Farmall Cub
my dana 30 is a closed knuckle. does that change anything? and does anyone have any pics?
 

Mark Ashford

Moderator.. or something
Staff member
Moderator
dboy said:
my dana 30 is a closed knuckle. does that change anything? and does anyone have any pics?

Yes, it changes everything, all the above is for an open knuckle SII D30.


I *have* seen a disc ocnversion on a closed knuckle D27 (very simular), and I have been told it was easy btu I don't know the parts list.


Get a hold of "Binderbound" on the Pirate list... I think he is here too, just not as often. Then post back.
 

Paul LaBar

Farmall Cub
dboy,

The Dana 30 with discs I mentioned earlier was a closed knuckle axle. The instructions in the BB FAQ were used to complete the conversion. The 6 bolt Chevy backing plate and Caliper work on both closed and open knuckle Dana 30s (and Dana 27s as Mark Mentioned since both axles share the same ends). So do the Scout II hubs.

With the closed Dana 27/30, there's an interference issue with the filler plug for the knuckle, but some folks have gotten around that by using a recessed types they found in the plumbing section of the local hardware store. I believe others have gotten around this by clocking the calipers.

Also, don't forget that you'll want a disc/drum Master Cylinder instead of the drum/drum type, and a Scout II type combination (a.k.a proportioning valve). I've read of a couple people running their old MC, but it has a check valve that needs to be removed from the front channel, or the discs will not release fully, and you really need a larger front reservior, piston and lines that move more fluid to close those calipers.

Overall - the conversion is worth it. I love mine on the old 800.

HTH

Paul :)
 

jeff campbell

Moderator
Staff member
is this on a 80-800 scout?better off just putting 44's under it,27's&30's are junk,less yur keeping it original,u got mail!?jeff :D
 

reddevil1111

Farmall Cub
If you have a d-44, there is a conversion package for sale on ebay.There is a guy on there selling drum to disk(rear only i belive) for around 200 bucks sans calipers...it uses caddy parts. I hope it helps....I will be adding disk myself but its going to be a year prob. for me to afford it. Dan
 

John Donnelly

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
dboy said:
anyone done this or have info on the conversion?

dboy.

Jim Grammer wrote an excellent article in the BB newsletter about converting a closed knuckle axle with drums to disc, and what is involved in it. D30 or D44, it is the same ball of wax.

The article is supporting member content here on the BB, but the article should be migrating to the FAQ here shortly.

In the interim, I will copy and paste the article here to this thread.

Binderin',

John
 

John Donnelly

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Front Disk Brake Conversion - 1968 1100 Travelall

By Jim Grammer

Important note:

This article is a report on the conversion I performed. I’m not instructing or advocating performing this work on your vehicle. Vehicle brakes are a critical safety system. Brake failure can cause serious bodily harm or death. Working on and modifying brake systems requires competent mechanical skills, if you’re not 100% sure about yours, please leave brake work to others. Neither the web site or myself can be responsible for your use of this information.

Background:

The IH 1100 model 4x4 became available in 1964 and was the first offering of an All Wheel Drive truck in the half ton range. A Dana 44 front driving axle with closed knuckles was used from 1964 until sometime in 1973 model year production, when a change was made to the open knuckle Dana 44. The closed knuckle axle was basically the same unit that had been used in 120/1200(non-HD axle) models since 1956, with the biggest difference being wheel hubs and brake drums using a 5 lug on 5.5" bolt circle. Staring in 1964 the standard front brakes were 11” x 2”. For the 1100B in ’66, they were upgraded to 12” x 2”. MT-118 shows codes and parts listings for both the 12” x 2” and the 11” x3” on the 1968 1100C, although I have never seen the 11” x 3” brakes installed on a ’68. From 1969 to the introduction of front disk brakes in 1974, the standard front brakes were 11" x 3" drums. The upgraded drums made a significant improvement in braking performance, but are not as powerful or fade free as properly sized disk brakes.

The 11" x 3" brakes should be a direct replacement for the 12" x 2" units, however the 11" brake mechanism is not a standard Bendix style and may be difficult to locate parts for. For the amount of work required and the limited improvement in braking performance, it made more sense for me to swap in disk brakes.

Goals:

Install disk brakes for greater braking performance, using commonly available parts.

Retain the closed knuckle design front driving axle(I prefer the sealed knuckle design and the adjustability of the king pin assembly).

Retain the stock 5 on 5.5" wheel lug bolt circle.

Minimize any increase in track width.

Minimize required fabrication.

Parts list:

I experimented with several possible combinations of parts, including GM 1/2 ton, full size Jeep, and Ford F150/Bronco, even considering Scout II Dana 30 spindles and hubs. I ended up using:

Stock IH Dana 44 front axle(knuckle to knuckle), and the stock inner/outer driveshafts.
1972 GM 1/2 ton ‘small bearing’ spindles from an open knuckle Dana 44.
1978 Ford F150/Bronco hubs/rotors – I believe that any Ford ½ ton with a 5 bolt spindle is a donor.
Chevy/FS Jeep 1/2 ton disk brake caliper mounts(AKA backing plates).
Chevy 1/2 ton brake calipers.
1975 Chevy 2WD 1/2 ton pickup brake hoses.
Scout II disk brake master cylinder.
Spicer(Chevy issue) front wheel locking hubs.
Modified spindle bushings(McMaster-Carr P/N 6391K438) and thrust washers(McMaster-Carr P/N 6906K525).
'Flush' style pipe plugs for the knuckle lubricant fill holes(McMaster-Carr P/N 4534K44).

Here is a pic of the major components:

249Brake_conversion_parts1-med.jpg


Note: It is also possible to do this conversion using the stock spindle and Scout II rotor. The Ford hub is too large to fit the opening in the Scout II rotor, so either the hub needs the O.D. turned down or the rotor needs the I.D. turned larger. Both modifications are simple tasks for a machine shop, and the hub can be turned on a standard brake lathe if available. This combination on the stock spindle will result in spacing that puts the caliper almost all the way outboard on the locating pins. There should be no problem with this as long as the brake pads wear evenly, but I preferred to have the caliper centered on the rotor. If the stock spindle is used, there is no need for the modified bushings/thrust washers.

Installation notes:

I used the factory shop manual as a reference for the general rebuild and adjustment of the steering knuckles. Please see John Donnelly’s excellent article in the May 2004 issue of the web site for more details. Note that the rubber seal and felt wiper for the knuckle is the same for all 'small ball' Dana 44's, and other closed knuckle Dana axles including early Jeeps.

While the knuckle is off the axle, I installed the Chevy spindle and brake caliper mounting plate(clamped the knuckle in a big vise, holding it across the flats on the steering arm). Installed the caliper on the mounting plate, and noted that the knuckle needed to be ground for caliper clearance in 2 places. One is along the back flange of the knuckle where the felt wiper bolts on. The other is the raised boss where the knuckle lubricant fill hole is located.. The back flange needs a 'dished' area ground out just deep enough for the rounded edge of the caliper to clear. I used a half worn out grinding wheel on an angle grinder to minimize the grind radius. The filler hole boss can be ground to a taper on one edge, just enough to clear the caliper plus a little to allow for flex at the caliper mount.

Here are 2 images of the ground areas:

249Knuckle_grinding2-med.jpg


249Knuckle_grinding1-med.jpg


I installed the flush style knuckle lube filler plugs at this time and ground the tops flush with the knuckle surface. As the knuckles wer re-installed on the axle, clearance was checked between the inside end of the plugs and the axle ball. A fair amount of material was removed from the plug to ensure that it clears the ball throughout the entire travel of the knuckle. I left a broad radius on the inside face of the plug, and made sure not to grind through into the bottom of the hex socket! An alternative to this style plug would be a standard hex or square plug, ground flush on the outside and then slotted for a big screwdriver.

The knuckle was cleaned thoroughly, including all threaded holes. Spindle mounting bolt holes were chased with a high quality tap and completely cleaned in preparation for Loctite.

The stock axle shafts were retained, in part because the outer axle shaft is not interchangeable with an open knuckle style shaft. The stock outer shaft rides on a bronze bushing in the stock spindle, and the shaft diameter at this point is larger than the I.D. of the standard 2110 needle bearing used in open knuckle Dana 44's. The needle bearing in the Chevy spindles needs to be removed and replaced with a bronze bushing that matches the stock axle shafts. The stock bushing from the IH knuckles does not fit the Chevy spindle, but the bore for the needle bearing on the Chevy knuckle is 1.625”, which is a standard O.D. for bronze bushings. McMaster Carr part # 6391K438 has the correct O.D. and I.D(1.375” ) for this application. I had the length turned to match the 2110 needle bearings. These bushings are pressed into the spindles with the faces flush to the spindle surface.

When replacing the stock flanged bushings with a straight bushing, a thrust bearing is needed to replace the thrust flange on the stock bushing. McMaster -Carr part # 5906K525 was used, with the I.D. turned to 1.375”. These are 1/8” wide, and can be stacked to space the axle position in relation to the knuckle. I bought a few extra for this purpose. The thrust bearing facing the outer axle shaft needs a bevel turned on the edge of the I.D. for clearance(the axle shaft has a small radius in this area). All the machine work was handled in about 20 min. on a manual lathe.

With the knuckles back together and properly adjusted and the axle shafts installed(only the beveled thrust washer for the initial setup), I installed the modified Chevy spindles temporarily, then set up the wheel hubs and bearings(adjusted out any play, but locknuts aren't required). This is when I decided how thick the axle shaft thrust bearings would be.

The Chevy spindles have a deeper recess on the inner face where the axle shaft goes through when compared to the stock IH spindle. In addition, the stock outer axle shaft may not be long enough to allow the use of some styles of locking hub in the Chevy spindle. This is due to the thickness of the splined driver portion of the locking hubs. I tried 2 different styles of IH/Warn OEM locking hubs, one fit and the other didn't. I ended up using a set of Spicer(Chevy) hubs because they were already clean and lubed, and they fit fine.

Next, I installed the locking hub splined driver and snapring. Threaded a 7/16NF bolt into the axle shaft end and pulled the axle shaft out as far as it would go. Confirmed that the splined driver was fully seated, and measured the clearance between the inside face of the snapring and the outside face of the splined driver. This is the additional thickness of thrust washer added between the spindle and outer axle shaft. This step ensures that the inner axle shaft has as much engagement as possible in the differential side gears.


Note: in my installation, the inner axle shafts have approximately 1/8" less engagement in the differential side gears than stock. I considered this acceptable for the type of use this truck will see.

With the final setup made and the axles installed, the spindles can be installed with the brake caliper mounting plates. I used new Grade 8 fasteners and Loctite 272 for spindle installation. The wheel hubs with rotors were installed and bearings adjusted, then locking hubs. Brake calipers were mounted, and hoses installed. I found that front brake hoses for a '75 Chevy 1/2 ton 2WD fit the existing frame mounted flare fittings on my '68, and will allow for 2-3 inches of lift in the future. I have information indicating that a flare fitting adapter may be required for later model trucks.

Here are 2 pics of the installation, less locking hubs. Note that I fabricated a support strap for the ‘dust guard’ on the brake caliper mount. This is a piece of ¾” x 3/16” stainless strap stock, bent and drilled at the ends for mounting, with a 90 degree twist for everything to line up:

249Brakes_installed1-med.jpg


249Brakes_installed21-med.jpg


I used a Scout II master cylinder because I had one handy, and the 1.125” bore matches that used in power-braked GM ½ tons from the ‘70’s and early ‘80’s. The stock junction block was not changed. It is important to make sure that the pressure differential switch in the junction block is not forced to one side while bleeding the brakes. The pedal is high and firm, with good braking action. All 4 wheels lock at about the same time on loose surfaces. Since this is a Travelall with more weight on the rear end than a pickup, a proportioning valve might be needed on a pickup.

Results:

Greater braking performance, spare service parts readily available.

Closed knuckle retained, total increase in track width of 1"(66" to 67" across wheel mounting surfaces)
 

Tom Mandera

Dreams of Cub Cadets
While we're on the subject, I've been collecting parts for my open knuckle drum 30 to disc conversion, and I want to use the Chevy/Ford stuff..

The hardest thing to find is the 19-spline stub-shafts with the 260x U-joint to match up with the Dana 30 inner 'shafts.

If I wanted to slide a D44 under the front, it'd be done already, but for the street Scout, I haven't decided it's worth the extra weight and hassle.. and besides, I might then start thinking, "Hey, it has a '44, it'll hold up to some *mild* wheeling.." and before long "it happens" and I've lost my daily driver and have another trail rig. :D
 

John Donnelly

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Tom Mandera said:
While we're on the subject, I've been collecting parts for my open knuckle drum 30 to disc conversion, and I want to use the Chevy/Ford stuff..

The hardest thing to find is the 19-spline stub-shafts with the 260x U-joint to match up with the Dana 30 inner 'shafts.

How about the 19 spline outers from a F/S 1100 series Truck or Travelall?

Those are 260X, and since they used internal spline hubs on those rigs, so much the better.

Just a thought.

Binderin',

John
 

Tom Mandera

Dreams of Cub Cadets
John Donnelly said:
How about the 19 spline outers from a F/S 1100 series Truck or Travelall?

Those are 260X, and since they used internal spline hubs on those rigs, so much the better.
John

Sounds like I need to work on my '72 1110 T'all then.. and liberate the front axle stubs (which hopefully means I might get around to slinging a Chevy front end under it).

My goal is to end up with internal 19sp hubs and inexpensive Chevy calipers and F150 rotors and wheel hubs.. plus I can use the small-center-hole Ford wheels if I want to.

I think EB Dana 30 front axles are another good source for the stubs, too..
 
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