"Timex" gets pacemaker (258 TBI)

[Caver Dave]

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

That's a long haul to the Moab Easter jeep jamboree!!!!

Moab? During EJS (Easter Jeep Safari)? Oh, absolutely NOT!
It'll be a total cluster for weeks and I'm currently "allergic"!

The "Jeepster Jam" is an annual East Coast get together for the surviving '66-'73 Jeepsters/Commando (only 67K total made). This will be our eleventh year... and the best part is it's going to be 2-2.5 hours from me

[Caver Dave]

When we last left our intrepid wingnuts, there was a couple short bursts of work on the Timex, but nothing really noteworthy. After couple weeks of job induced "mental illness" I was suddenly motivated to get back at it!

Tonight, I finished KO coil power & connected C9 (crank signal)... according to my list, the *LAST* 2 connections in the engine bay! While there's still a couple permanent connections to be made, routing the harness thru the firewall, wiring the diag. plug & SES, tons of "cleanup"... I got wild hair to hear it run.

Connected the leads to the battery and turned her over... nothing. Found I'd left the coil power connector dangling.

With that resolved, tried again... nothing. Checked KO voltage to the injectors and found 12VDC on both.

Tried it again with the same results. One more visual check found the pigtail connector from the dizzy not seated. And then...

She fired right up!!! Ran for about 20 seconds & cut off. Didn't have any fuel from the DS injector, so I checked the connector (it was seated fully) & gave it a "love tap" with screwdriver. Cranked it back and it ran like champ for about 5 minutes, until I cut it off (hadn't checked coolant level since we'd done the CTS)! Was so pumped, I called my brother to tell him we were over the hump & give him a listen via cell.

Planning to spend the day tomorrow wrapping up as much as possible, but thought I'd better let you guys know too!

[Bill usn-1]

IT'S ALIVE!!!!



CONGRATS
Now finish it right so you don't lose connections on the trail and start blaming the EFI when it stops running!


Don't forget the logging data and tuning the chip!!


or do it wrong and just be another jeep(Barbie) I have to fix on the trail!

[Caver Dave]

Great! Another 2 months since the last update...

OK, went back to the wiring, soldered/heat shrink-ed ALL connections, got it dressed up, & everything "hardware" was buttoned up nicely (All the stuff I didn't like about mine was resolved... 2nd times the charm?). Then it was parked in the back and the Moss brought inside for fluid changes/checks prior to the JAM last month.







So, after 1 x Jeepster Jam (shameless Facebook link of the Moss/FI on a hill alot steeper than the camera accounts), 2 x weeks of family vacation, & 5 x weeks of near death employment, I began the first leg of the "software" phase. My son, Josh (17), modified the ECM with an Aries ZIF (actually went into the Moss to test & my original put in Timex) and I slurped the 4.3's bin (86AKDW) from the 2732A, turned off the Malfunction Flags for the EGR/VSS & burned that tune back a "fresh" 27SF512 (yes, the netres chips were swapped ). We got everything plugged up & took Timex for a double lap of the block for the initial logging run... no small feat as it's running like (have to feather throttle & no power in 3rd-4th). Pretty sure both curves are way off where they need to be...

Anyways, here's the run down:

• AMC 258 (4.2L)
• 1227747 generation TBI fuel + timing hardware (everything but EGR & VSS)
• 3/4" AL TB adapter & the usual "mix matched" 4.3L injectors
• Hedman header (plumbed out the back w/ no muffler)
• KOEO/KOER voltages all within range
• De-advanced Motorcraft dizzy w/ timing set at 6* BTD (bypassed... would NOT run at 0* )
• Fuel pressure steady at 14#

Results attached...

[Bill usn-1]

You need to go thru the initial setup procedures.
The min idle is too high and that makes the TPS way to high.
Where's the BLM's?
It looks real rich at idle and lean out up high.
May need to look at fuel pressure under a load.

Video is private or removed!

[Caver Dave]

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

You need to go thru the initial setup procedures.
The min idle is too high and that makes the TPS way to high.
Where's the BLM's?
It looks real rich at idle and lean out up high.
May need to look at fuel pressure under a load.

Agreed Bill.
Will take care of the initial setup tweaks this week.

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

Video is private or removed!

I'm working on the guy to put it on YouTube so all may enjoy it!

[Caver Dave]

Bill, sorry for the delay, but have been so busy I've just got back on the 3-4 (dozen) projects still on our lists!

My brother came over today to retrieve some trampoline parts that we hadn't got around to repairing. I knocked them out before he arrived, so that left some time to revisit the TBI on the Timex! She fired right up after over a month sitting (no big surprise with TBI! ) and we turned for running the initial setup items missed during install.

• Timing confirmed at 6* BTDT... still wouldn't run at 0*
• Reset idle to 700rpms (500-600 was a bit low)
• Adjusted TPS to .55V - 1%
• Fuel pressure remained steady during the logging run @ 15PSI (EDIT: except for when run out of fuel )

With the laptop connected & WinALDL logging, we left the house to circle the block, but ended up heading to the gas station (2.5 miles away) for a little fuel. Of course after replacing the sender during the plumbing phase of the install, we realized it was off and ran out about 3/4 of a mile from the station! My son ran 3 gals. out to us and after a few minutes were on our way.

After the pit stop, I kicked off the logging again & we were off... not too far, but hopefully enough to start narrowing it down. Seems lean under load?... has no power at all on hills & is running a bit hot (despite being well over 95* at the time). 1st & 2nd run out pretty well, but 3rd & 4th tend to stumble unless feathered.

The first log was prior to/during running it out of fuel & the second, larger afterwards.

[Bill usn-1]

Did you save the BLM table?

Looks a little lean under load and it looks like the higher temps are promoting a little ping. and the additional 6*. I still don't understand how your engine will not run at 0* yet idle at 30map. It's not making sense.

The fuel is not causing your hot running engine.
There seems to be a few (jeep) guys lately that are being told their engine is hot because it's lean.
That's just not the case.

If your getting hot it's because you have cooling system problems. This also affects the tune of the engine. So you need to get the cooling system working properly.

The alt is also dropping way off at idle. It looks alright at speed so you may need to swap the pulley size or get a better alt that puts out at idle. Normally the cheaper higher out put alternators work just like yours. they put out fine at speed but suck at idle.

[Caver Dave]

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

Did you save the BLM table?

Thought of that as I shutdown the laptop... trying to direct the stream of sweat dripping off my nose away from the keyboard! Is that a show stopper?

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

Looks a little lean under load and it looks like the higher temps are promoting a little ping. and the additional 6*. I still don't understand how your engine will not run at 0* yet idle at 30map. It's not making sense

Should we try to set it at 0* (even though it barely runs) in hopes the ECM will manage it better?

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

The fuel is not causing your hot running engine.
There seems to be a few (jeep) guys lately that are being told their engine is hot because it's lean.
That's just not the case.

If your getting hot it's because you have cooling system problems. This also affects the tune of the engine. So you need to get the cooling system working properly.

Prior to the TBI swap, this engine would run all day long in the hottest conditions without complaining. However, it wasn't until there was a sensor & ECM reading it that there was even a hint of "too hot". I suspect it's the solid fan, NO shroud, and possible 190* T-stat... once it runs well enough to make the journey home (45 miles), the plan is a system flush, t-stat swap, fill & a shrouded electric (Taurus) fan.

Any chance the 6* advance is fighting the tables and it's retarding the timing out way too far?

FWIW, I've always been told a lean engine will run hotter than stoic/rich... is this not true?

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

The alt is also dropping way off at idle. It looks alright at speed so you may need to swap the pulley size or get a better alt that puts out at idle. Normally the cheaper higher out put alternators work just like yours. they put out fine at speed but suck at idle.

Classic 20 year old GM crap! We're both planning a CS (better rectification?) upgrade as soon as time/funds allow.

[Bill usn-1]

Originally Posted by Caver Dave

Thought of that as I shutdown the laptop... trying to direct the stream of sweat dripping off my nose away from the keyboard! Is that a show stopper?

The BLm table helps to show an avg reading of how the fuel table really is. So it definately helps.

Should we try to set it at 0* (even though it barely runs) in hopes the ECM will manage it better?

If your going to continue to run it like it is then I would set it back a few degrees for now.

Prior to the TBI swap, this engine would run all day long in the hottest conditions without complaining. However, it wasn't until there was a sensor & ECM reading it that there was even a hint of "too hot".

Sound more like an "ignorance is bliss" or "what you don't know won't hurt you" statement.
Your jeep started and ran and drove and didn't get hot enough to blow water out the cap.
So all was assumed good. Now you have data that show exactly what the engine is doing.

I suspect it's the solid fan, NO shroud, and possible 190* T-stat... once it runs well enough to make the journey home (45 miles), the plan is a system flush, t-stat swap, fill & a shrouded electric (Taurus) fan.

I suspect the same!

Any chance the 6* advance is fighting the tables and it's retarding the timing out way too far?

I think the combination of high temps, thin hot air and increased timing is causing ping. When the knock sensor hears ping it triggers the ESC to retard the timing. If you save the knock table it will show how many pings it heard in each cell. So it is another good tool to have when reviewing the data log.

FWIW, I've always been told a lean engine will run hotter than stoic/rich... is this not true?

The statement is basically true. The problem is when people confuse the fuel table being lean with the engine running lean.
Just because the BLM show lean does not mean the engine is running lean. The ECM has the ability to adjust the actual fuel as conditions change. That's why we run the EFI. It keeps the engine in a constant state of tune. So as long as the BLMs aren't outside the limits of the correction then the engine will still be running stoick.
We adjust the fuel table to be centered aroung stoick for the conditions we normally drive our vehicle. Then let the ECM make the adjustments as conditions change. Like outside temp, changes in altitude, changes in moisture, even a dirty airfilter.
If your table is on the lean side to start with then the ecm can only adjust so far and "then" the engine will actually start to run lean.
That's why we tune!!

Classic 20 year old GM crap! We're both planning a CS (better rectification?) upgrade as soon as time/funds allow.

The 10 and 12si alts are fine. I still run them. As mentioned in many, many threads, the voltage needs to be good. Read about them in the tech section of www.madelectrical.com