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Old 03-30-2007, 06:53 PM
International-9.0 International-9.0 is offline
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Default 9 Liter Engines

I just wanted to know if there were any 9 Liter fans out there? I cannot really find any information on them period nor anybody who has heard of them, or has heard of them and likes them. I know the DTs might have been superior in power and reliability, but they just don't have that "big block V8 sound."

I was rather interested on some of the technical aspects of the engine, like strong points, weaknesses, and history of the engine. I know there was a DV550, and perhaps something called a D190.

I bought a complete service manual set off ebay, figuring the item would have my engine and the 6.9 in it, but those engines were left out. Even though this manual was covering the 87/88 model years. The number on the book was CTS-4245. What book would I need to get the right information on the engine/chassis? I have a 1987 International S-1800 school bus. Thanks for any help.
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Old 03-31-2007, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I just wanted to know if there were any 9 Liter fans out there? I cannot really find any information on them period nor anybody who has heard of them, or has heard of them and likes them. I know the DTs might have been superior in power and reliability, but they just don't have that "big block V8 sound."

Looks like there are 2 of us now. pretty good considering most folks that know nothing about something will just tell you its a pile of junk instead of looking at the big picture. the 9.0L was an important part of the switch from gas to Diesel in mid sized trucks and buses beginning in the early '80's. Let me see if I can recall some of the major features of the 9.0L Diesel engines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I was rather interested on some of the technical aspects of the engine, like strong points, weaknesses, and history of the engine. I know there was a DV550, and perhaps something called a D190.

The 9.0L diesel engine was the last incarnation of a V8 Diesel engine designed and built by the truck division of IH. Many other IH Diesel engines used in trucks were designed and built by the construction equipment division of IH, but the V8 Diesel series was designed as a gas engine replacement from its introduction in march of 1966. The engine has similar dimensions to the LV series gas engines and even shares a few componants with the 537 and the Daddy-Ola 605 series engines. weight is approx 1250 lbs dry. There were 2 engines in the original series, the 160HP DV462, and the 180 and 200HP DV550. These engines have many of the heavy duty features found in all IH Diesel engines Plus many that are unique to this engine family.

The engine block is a heavy duty casting with a deep skirt which has "tie" bolts thru the skirt that add strength and rigidity to the 5 main bearing caps. The crankshaft is forged steel, induction hardened and "tuftrided" to provide a super hardened surface for long life. The combustion chamber design is a spherical chamber in the piston dome. During combustion the air and fuel ignite and mix by the swirling motion of the expanding gas. The DV550 series uses piston cooling nozzles. Compression ratio is 17.0:1.

The Pistons have a 3 ring design and a dome shape with a corresponding concave shape on the cylinder head. The valves go thru the head at an angle and are also unique with a ball machined on the end with a matching swivel cap. the valve lifters feature a carbide wafer on the bottom for long life. The original DV engines used the IH 3200 injection pump built by Holley. The DV462B and DV550B series engines used a Robert Bosch injection pump with a 4 cylinder idle feature. At idle speed only 4 cylinders would fire to reduce smoke. This gave the engine a truely unique sound. Another unique feature on the B series engines was called a "swirl destroyer" (no kidding after Star Trek and B4 Star Wars!!) which sounds like something from a solar system far away, but it was just a butterfly of sorts in the intake to reduce the swirl of the incoming air and help reduce the smoke when the engine was cold.

The DV462B was dropped from the lineup in the early '70's, the DV550B continued until the mid 70's when it was replaced by the D series. the D series had some updates and improvements, kept using the Robert Bosch inline pump, but was changed to an 8 cylinder idle, and no longer used a swirl destroyer. 3 ratings were available, 170, 180, and 190 HP so that was the thing called the D190. Basically the DV550B with a few changes.

The last update for the DV550 came along in 1979. There was a PUSH for US manufacturers to switch to the metric system on all newly designed products. The D series was transformed into the 9.0L series. There were many changes for this series, however the engine was based on a earlier design so IH opted to save the 45 million in tooling costs and kept the engine with the previous inch dimensions and threads. The designation was all that went metric. The series had 165 and 185 HP federal emission certification and a 175 HP California version. Additionally there was a marine and several power unit engines available in the 9.0L engine family.

The major changes were made to the piston and combustion chamber. the Robert Bosch inline pump continued to be used, but the nozzles were changed from 21mm to 17mm. The piston was changed from the spherical combustion bowl to a "Mexican Hat" style. all of the previous design features were still used. The front cover was redesigned, the fan mounting was changed. Air intake and rocker covers were redesigned. The color was changed from IH red to concord blue to match other engines used in the truck division.

The DV550B was used in the 1568 farm tractor and continued to be made for export after the introduction of the 9.0L. The 9.0L was discontinued in 1987 when it was replaced by the turbocharged DT360 in the truck and bus lineup. Total production of the D&DV series was 56,008, and 80,785 for the 9.0L. The 9.0L series engines were never made in a turbocharged version. The D, DV, and D9.0L engines were all built at the Indianapolis engine plant as well as the 537, 605 and the LV8 engines that the Diesels replaced in the medium truck lineup.

I think I got most of the strong points. I don't know if I would say there were any weaknesses, but there were a few common problems. early engines were prone to head gasket failure. Later blocks have the top deck thickness was increased, and the head bolts, gasket and torque procedure updated to eliminate the problem. Another sometimes annoying problem was oil leakage around the oil filter base. The base is a long aluminum casting nearly as long as the block, the higher expansion rate of the aluminium would often cause the gasket between the block and oil filter base to fail.

The D9.0L engine series was an important step in the Dieselization of mid sized trucks and buses when IH discontinued production of gas engines in 1983. The low cost, low maintenace, economical 9.0L engine became the standard engine along with the 6.9L series. The premium DT466 was available as an upgrade.



Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I bought a complete service manual set off ebay, figuring the item would have my engine and the 6.9 in it, but those engines were left out. Even though this manual was covering the 87/88 model years. The number on the book was CTS-4245. What book would I need to get the right information on the engine/chassis? I have a 1987 International S-1800 school bus. Thanks for any help.
The chassis service manual does not include any of the Diesel engine manuals. You can order them from your dealer or Binder Books.

Eldon
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:36 PM
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WRENCH MAN WRENCH MAN is offline
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

When dad was looking for a "hauler" we looked into the 9.0ltr because there was a S series available localy with one in it.
The only thing I could find wrong with them was that they had some head gasket issues?, and they were "GUTLESS" was all anyone had to say about them, the LoadStar we ended up with has the DTA466 230hp engine in it, and as Eldon said the 9.0ltr was only available in a 185hp version at most, and it probobly weighs more than a DT series too?
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Old 03-31-2007, 03:49 PM
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Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz is offline
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRENCH MAN
When dad was looking for a "hauler" we looked into the 9.0ltr because there was a S series available localy with one in it.
The only thing I could find wrong with them was that they had some head gasket issues?, and they were "GUTLESS" was all anyone had to say about them, the LoadStar we ended up with has the DTA466 230hp engine in it, and as Eldon said the 9.0ltr was only available in a 185hp version at most, and it probobly weighs more than a DT series too?
Gutless? you obviously haven't driven a 6x2 International ACCO 20 Tonne Gross vehicle mass truck powered by the Nuess IH D358!
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Old 03-31-2007, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Back in the early 1980's I drove a S-1900 with a 9.0L (5 spd w/ 2spd axle) a lot and I liked it. It replaced a Loadstar 1600 with a 345 and it was a great upgrade that 1900 w/ the 9.0L was a much better rig. One really big benefit with the 9.0L was the fuel mileage compared to a 345 the 9.0L was getting 8 to 10 with light loads.

I hauled a Oliver 1650 on it while I was towing a towed type New Holland bale wagon from around Harlowtown to Bilings MT and there are a few good hills on the Hwy #3 and the 9.0L would just run right up them.

That said I think the DT466 is a much better engine and I would chose it over the 9.0L or the 444E any day.

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Old 03-31-2007, 06:45 PM
International-9.0 International-9.0 is offline
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Thanksssssssssss so much Eldon!!! That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. There's so much about that engine's history and significance that I didn't know. I had no idea that it was important in replacing gas engines.

I think one nice quality it has is being naturally aspirated. That engine revs right up and "barks" at you. It has alot of take-off power without turbo lag. There is also no turbo bearings to go out or turbo piping all over the engine.

I think the engine has plenty of power. It sure had alot more than those 6.9s. It's designed to be efficient and limit horsepower to save you fuel. A 466 may use fuel more efficiently and have more power, but you only want so much power if you're going to maintain fuel/operating efficiency. When all you need is raw pulling power, you get a DT466.

I just love listening to the sound of that engine when it's working. I took a 30 mile drive today after replacing my fuel stop cable so I could hear the engine work as I drove over the local mountain. There will never be another engine like the 9 Liter.

I'm going to look through the Binder books, but I'd love to find a book with information on the history if IH engines. There are alot of books on tractors, but I'm actually most interested in the engines themselves. I will also look for an engine manual. The service manuals I bought did have information about the DT360, 7.3 IDI, and DT466, but they just didn't cover my engine or any of the old gassers. Thanks again.
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Old 04-01-2007, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

I know that a lot of people bad-mouth the 9.0 litre engine, and perhaps they have had bad experiences with these engines. My experience with this engine has been positive, although limited. I have a 1985 S1800 bus with the 9.0 litre engine. It has 206000 miles and still runs perfectly. The school that I bought it from had done nothing but routine maintenance on it since new. It always starts right up, even when it is 20 degrees. I have several other S series trucks and buses. The 9.0 litre engine has far more power than any of the 6.9 or 7.3 litre engines and even the T444E that I have. I would say it runs about equal with the DT360 powered truck I have. Of course, the DT466 I have will out pull any of the other trucks, but everyone already knew that. What everyone else mentioned is true. This engine has a great sound to it. It also accelerates well. I would not hesitate to recommend this engine.
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Old 04-01-2007, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

In 1986 I worked for a short while as an IH salesman. we were told to only sell these engines in a low mileage use,where price was important.they were often sold for heavy duty use where they did not hold up which is where they got the bad name. as said before they were made to be a gas alternative not a line haul engine
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
Thanksssssssssss so much Eldon!!! That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. There's so much about that engine's history and significance that I didn't know. I had no idea that it was important in replacing gas engines.
Your welcome. Let me add to the gas-Diesel part just a bit more.

Lets travel back in time to say 1981. Cell phones didn't exist. Computers were kept in a seperate building. EPA mandates for lower emissions had just began to apply to mid sized trucks sold in the USA. IH knew the gas engine was on its way out. IH also knew that the Diesel engine was the only practical replacement for mid sized trucks and school buses, but the market was very cost sensitive. Schools would often buy the lowest bid, and often that would be very close. Perhaps even less than 100 dollars between the winning and losing bids. From the time of its introduction the 9.0L was intended for this market. The 9.0L was billed as a "MoneyBack Diesel".




There were very few Diesel engines choices available for mid sized trucks at the time. Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Mack all had large, heavy, expensive engines for the Heavy trucks, but few choices were available for mid and light trucks. Cat had the 3208 V8. Detroit had just began to build the 8.2L V8. Cummins B&C engines were still on the drawing board. The IH 550 cu in V8 was allready proven reliable with close to 15 years in the medium truck market. The 3208 didn't become as popular, The 8.2L was a troublesome engine and was soon discontinued.

Let's suppose we are going to buy a 65 passenger bus in '81, and have allready decided to use an IH S1800 chassis. The choice comes down to gas vs Diesel. The standard engine would be a MV404 at 188HP. The 185 HP 9.0L Diesel would be $3,000 extra, the DT466 would add about $6,000 to the base price of say $30,000. The decision would come down to the improved mileage and lower maintenance cost for the Diesel. Just for easy figuring lets say fuel was $.50/ gal. the gas unit got 4 mpg, the Diesel 8. roughly half the cost for fuel. the Diesel needing service about 1/2 as often as the gas engine, and life to replacement so overall about half the cost to operate and maintain the Diesel engine. After 100,000 miles the fuel savings alone would be about $6,000, maintenance another 6K and higher resale value. A potential savings of close to $15,000 per 100K miles.


The payback period for the Diesel premium was as short as 12-24 months in most cases, so the 9.0L was promoted as a "MoneyBack Diesel" and it was widely used in buses and the low end of the medium duty market. The DT466 was also a good choice, but rarely was used in a bus, or other low end trucks. The cost difference for the premium features took longer to payback and the price competition was fierce, plus schools and smaller businesses had tight budgets to work with.


The engine was discontinued because it would need major changes to meet emission regulations, not because of problems. over 135,000 engines were built over the 20+ years the series was in production. Another 20 years have went by since the engine was discontinued and there are still many in use. Lots of Schools still depend on the 9.0L Diesel engine to get the "little darlings" to school each day. Not too bad considering all the changes over 40 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I think one nice quality it has is being naturally aspirated. That engine revs right up and "barks" at you. It has alot of take-off power without turbo lag. There is also no turbo bearings to go out or turbo piping all over the engine.

Well let me just say that turbocharging is a natural thing for any Diesel engine. if you have turbo lag the turbo needs to be matched to the engine better. If you are having bearing problems you need better maintenance. The reason many engines like the 9.0L are not turbocharged from the start is cost. if you look at todays automotive Diesel market virtually every engine is turbocharged to improve the efficiency, and to reduce emissions. they kinda go hand in hand. The 9.0L was well suited for turbocharging with piston cooling nozzles, stout block and crank, etc. IH had a turbocharged DT466 available in the 160-210HP range so the folks that needed more power, or were in higher altitudes could choose that without having to increase the price on the 9.0L family. A turbo would definately change the sound tho. I often thought about trying one, but haven't gotten 'round tuit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I think the engine has plenty of power. It sure had alot more than those 6.9s. It's designed to be efficient and limit horsepower to save you fuel. A 466 may use fuel more efficiently and have more power, but you only want so much power if you're going to maintain fuel/operating efficiency. When all you need is raw pulling power, you get a DT466.

If you compare the 3 engines, like say you were buying a truck in 1984 when those were the choices, The 6.9L would only be available in the lower end, smaller truck or bus. so it would be a choice of good, better, best. Where the 6.9L would do the job, 9.0L would be better, DT466 would be overkill. And the same goes for the top end. If you had a 466 in a dump truck the 6.9L would be way too small. Each one has its place in the lineup. If the only choice was power you could simply de-rate the 466 to cover the whole power spectrum, but the low end guys would pay for something they don't need. If it was up to me thats the way it would be, but the bean counters get in there and push the cost thing so you end paying for the duty you need. lets call it light, medium, or heavy. The trick is to give the sales department something to sell at a price that is competitive, and still build in the durability to give a long service life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I just love listening to the sound of that engine when it's working. I took a 30 mile drive today after replacing my fuel stop cable so I could hear the engine work as I drove over the local mountain. There will never be another engine like the 9 Liter.

The sound is unique thats for sure. Kinda sounds like it is gonna fly apart


Quote:
Originally Posted by International-9.0
I'm going to look through the Binder books, but I'd love to find a book with information on the history if IH engines. There are alot of books on tractors, but I'm actually most interested in the engines themselves. I will also look for an engine manual. The service manuals I bought did have information about the DT360, 7.3 IDI, and DT466, but they just didn't cover my engine or any of the old gassers. Thanks again.
The engine manuals are all available seperately. The early bound manuals only included gas engine info. I don't think a book exists on the history of IH engines other than maybe some early stationary antiques. I was thinking about doing the history of the IH Diesel engines which goes back to the 1940's. I guess another project to slide on the back burner with all the other 'stuff' I wanna get done someday.

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  #10  
Old 04-01-2007, 08:41 PM
International-9.0 International-9.0 is offline
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Default Re: 9 Liter Engines

Quote:
The 8.2L was a troublesome engine and was soon discontinued.
As far as I know, the 8.2 continued until roughly 1991, which is actually further than the 9 Liter made it. I don't know a whole lot about these engines. I think they were one of detroit's first 4 cycle engines, weren't they? The ones I have driven didn't particularly impress me on the power. These were non-turbo versions and had very little take-off power. They seemed to pull a little better when you wind them up, but I didn't really like them all that much. I will say they had a nice purr to them and ran very quiet for a 500 CI diesel.

Quote:
The engine was discontinued because it would need major changes to meet emission regulations, not because of problems.
I knew that emissions was what ended production of the 9 Liter, as well as many other good diesels that had proven over time. Didn't that phase out the DT360 as well? I think most NA diesels were gone by the late 80's or early 90's. I have been told that IH did try turbos on 9 Liters, but that they had head gasket problems with these. These were only "test" or prototype units and were never actually manufactured for sale or use.

Quote:
Well let me just say that turbocharging is a natural thing for any Diesel engine. if you have turbo lag the turbo needs to be matched to the engine better. If you are having bearing problems you need better maintenance.
I agree that turbocharging is very helpful to get hp/torque up, for emissions, and for efficiency. I think years ago though, turbocharging was less common and of course much more expensive. My guess is that it was cheaper to go with more cubic inches. "There is no replacement for DISPLACEMENT" You have to think though; a great deal of places did NOT maintain their fleets very well and when you have something complicated or delicate, it's going to fail. Then these companies/places are gonna blame the vehicle for their own neglect. This in time builds a bad reputation for an engine. I agree, if you maintain the vehicle well, you should have no problems with turbo bearings and leaky piping.

You also must think simplicity. If you have a rural school district with mechanics that aren't very qualified/experienced/knowledgable, they might be opposed to ordering an engine with a turbo as it's something more comlicated. "I don't know how to work on those new turbo doohickies." I know turbos are now found on any diesel engine, but I"m trying to speak in reference to the times years ago. Many of the gentlemen in the shop where I work can work on older engines, but are not in tune (pardon the pun) with the new electronics. This goes double for diesel engines. We spent a week trying to diagnose a T444E because nobody every worked on one and we only have like 2 of them.

The worst turbo lag I ever experienced was in a Cummins "C" engine on a 95 model trash truck. It was so bad we thought it was starting in 2nd gear. 3116's could also be rather slow to take off. The Pre-98 444Es always seemed a litttle slow getting started to me (in a full size bus). My 180 hp (it's a 180F, would that be 185 or 180?) 9 Liter takes off like nobody's business. It won't pull the hills near as well as a turbo I'm sure, but it sure takes off nice.

Quote:
In 1986 I worked for a short while as an IH salesman. we were told to only sell these engines in a low mileage use,where price was important.they were often sold for heavy duty use where they did not hold up which is where they got the bad name. as said before they were made to be a gas alternative not a line haul engine
I agree 100%! I think too many people spec'd the 9 liter in severe duty applications where it was just not made to hold up. Then they would call it a piece of crap. This is true for any engine/vehicle. You have to have equipment designed for the application or you are gonna have problems. I know little about the 6.9s although I rode on them many times when I was younger. I don't know that we ever had troubles in the reliability deparment, but those were the slowest things known to man. I don't think anybody should have spec'd those for a 65 passenger bus. I remember holding up traffic for a half mile when leaving school because we literally couldn't get over 25 mph doing down a level road. Perhaps ours needed a tune-up, hehe. You could forget pulling hills with those altogether. Now in a pickup or smaller bus, I can see it being an ideal choice for initial cost and efficiency. But as stated before, you gotta have the right engine for the right application.

I did find a 9.0 Liter service manual in the Binder Books site for only $13, so I think I will order one tomorrow. What a great resource. I might order some of the other engines in time just for knowledge sake.

Thank you so much for all your replies Eldon. You are truly a wealth of knowledge on IH history and engines! Please feel free to add more. Ever since I got interested in the 9 Liter, I've wanted to learn more about it and the other IH engines. I always wondered why all the 300 series and 537 had a V designation, while the 400 series had the MV designation? I'm sure there is a simple answer to that.

Here are some photos of my S1800 1987 School bus with an IH 9.0. I also took a separate picture of my custom tag before I put it on. I hope you enjoy it. I haven't done photos on a message board so I hope this comes out right, forgive me if it doesn't.



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