Vacuum advance for Holley dizzys (again)...

Previously on this subject we have discovered that (at least some and maybe all) of the manufacturers have discontinued making the vacuum advance for our Holley point and electronic (goldbox) distributors. I personally had contact with Standard Motor Parts and Borg Warner in this subject and neither of them make them any more. And I tried a number of times to buy a NAPA VC141, a Standard VC164 and a Borg Warner V448.

I was able to get one BW V448 so it appears that some stock is still in the distribution pipeline.

Now another controversy has come up. A buddy of mine also has a BW V448 in the box and his is stamped with 7*. The one I just bought is stamped with 5*. Now in our previous visits to this subject it seems to be a consensus that the 5* is what is correct for the IH engines. And help confirm this I have an NOS vacuum advance in an IH box that is also stamped with a 5.

So now a buddy of mine has bought a new BW V447 and he has posted that they (his V448 and his new V447) appear identical. And both are stamped with 7*. So in my mind one of them is wrong. He will have to resolve that.

But it does appear that you can buy a V447 all day long. He got his at O'Reileys for around $40.

So, it would appear, we can now discuss the relative merits of using a 7* vacuum advance vs a 5* and what, if any, changes might we make to initial timing and/or mechanical advance in order to use a 7* vacuum advance.

The sage continues...

[RD Durham]

From the pictures I pulled up on NAPA's and Parts America websites they (V447 & V448) do indeed look somewhat similar. The difference I see is that the V447 appears to have a bend in the arm while the V448 has no bend, but both arms are very different. The V447 has more of a "dog leg" arm, while the V448 has more of a "S" shape arm. However, the vacuum canisters appear to be the same. One might be able to flatten out the arm of a V447 and have something that will work. I'd be concerned that the arm on the V447, even if flattened, would hit the points base.

[Bill usn-1]

I think that I and a lot of others have been using much more advance on the IH then the factory ever did.
I would say the additional vacuum advance would be good for driveability and still not affect the WOT timing where there is 0 vacuum!!!

It would also be good for the high vacuum cruise area on the highway for a little better MPG!!

[Robert Bishop]

Looked at the Holley vacuum advances for a '73 IH pickup in the MT131 parts book and there at least 3 different vacuum advance units for the SV engines. IH part numbers 361767-C1, 361768-C1 and 435001-C1, and there are possibly others. The only difference is the amount of advance in distributor degrees as listed in the IH service manual. 5 distributor degrees would be 10 degrees at the crankshaft while of course 7 degrees would be 14 degrees at the crank. The more vacuum advance the better, as long as you do not have engine clatter. Better meaning a more effecient engine with better fuel economy. Should have a more responsive engine driving around town with more degrees of vacuum advance. Believe the vacuum advance on my IH pickup with a 345 was originally stamped with a 4. In reality, you would probably be hard pressed to be able to tell the difference in performance between the 5 or 7 stamped unit.

[Bill Bennett]

I changed the advance unit from a #5 to a #7 a couple years ago on my 304. I haven't noticed any difference. Just checked the shape of the arms and they both look the same to me.
Bill Bennett 68 Travelall

[Robert Bishop]

Originally Posted by Doug Shailor

Previously on this subject we have discovered that (at least some and maybe all) of the manufacturers have discontinued making the vacuum advance for our Holley point and electronic (goldbox) distributors. I personally had contact with Standard Motor Parts and Borg Warner in this subject and neither of them make them any more. And I tried a number of times to buy a NAPA VC141, a Standard VC164 and a Borg Warner V448.

I was able to get one BW V448 so it appears that some stock is still in the distribution pipeline.

Now another controversy has come up. A buddy of mine also has a BW V448 in the box and his is stamped with 7*. The one I just bought is stamped with 5*. Now in our previous visits to this subject it seems to be a consensus that the 5* is what is correct for the IH engines. And help confirm this I have an NOS vacuum advance in an IH box that is also stamped with a 5.

So now a buddy of mine has bought a new BW V447 and he has posted that they (his V448 and his new V447) appear identical. And both are stamped with 7*. So in my mind one of them is wrong. He will have to resolve that.

But it does appear that you can buy a V447 all day long. He got his at O'Reileys for around $40.

So, it would appear, we can now discuss the relative merits of using a 7* vacuum advance vs a 5* and what, if any, changes might we make to initial timing and/or mechanical advance in order to use a 7* vacuum advance.

The sage continues...

The Borg Warner V-449 should also work on the Holley Distributors. Was listed at a price of $33.99 on O'Reillys webite. The V-448 was listed at $33.99 also, while the V-447 was $38.99. For comparison, the Borg Warner V-428 is listed for the Prestolite Distributors at $19.99.

[M. Mayben]

As Doug, Bill, and I have been kicking this topic around for a looooooong time, now that I have time on my hands to write again (as opposed to working in the shop), I need to update what I've learned regarding this subject. Sorry it's taken so long to post this, life has happened a few times lately and I'm just now becoming comfortable enough to sit here at the keyboard for any length of time.

As promised in a previous thread, back in February I visited these folks in Portland, OR:

http://www.philbingroup.com/

What a treasure they turned out to be! Going in their place is like entering a time warp/automotive electrical systems museum! Distributor machines all over the place (all customer units undergoing repair/restoration), 60 year old battery chargers, old school shop test equipment (my weakness), etc.

The folks there could not have been anymore helpful or free with information on ANY topic regarding automotive-related ignitions systems, distributors, etc. On a cold, rainy afternoon, we BS'd for nearly three hours! And, I had a significantly worn IH/Holley breaker-point distributor with me for a sample.

While they do still have a very small inventory of "some" NEW Holley-application vacuum advance cans (various advance specs), they are capable of REBUILDING ($30) virtually ANY vac can for ANY distributor! In fact, they showed me a portion of the process, along with large rolls of the CORRECT diaphragm material from which they hand cut new components.

We discussed re-curving the Holley unit for a more suitable curve when EGR is eliminated (my personal research project until the bypass surgery whacked me), the pros and cons of the "regular" Pertronix unit vs. the Pertronix II (they are a master distributor for Pertronix and also have the ability to have a "custom-built" Pertronix unit produced for wierd, low volume applications), and debated the Delco vs. IH/Holley distributor issue at length!

I was also shown how virtually all of the vac cans common to the IH and Ford distributor applications are identical (as long as the actuator arm is the same design). The ONLY difference is the amount of advance the can is capable of providing, this is what the "numerical" designation on the actuator arm represents. Common Holley cans are marked from "3" through "13" depending upon the OEM distributor application specified. I.e., a "3" indicates 3 degrees of advance, a "7" indicates 7 degrees, etc.

In fact, the Philbin folks can "convert" any "3" can to a "5", a "5" to a "7", etc. Once the cans are completed and re-sealed, they are all tested on a bench appartus. They can even make a "9" into a "5", etc., though it is a more difficult process.

Once the entire distributor is completed (if sent in for a re-man), it's run up on a distributor machine for validation that both vacuum and mechanical advance curves are within spec, or the entire distributor is recurved per customer instructions.

While I was there, they asked if I could identify a part for them. They brought out a case (24 pieces) of NOS Niehoff distributor caps in boxes marked "IH63". When we pulled one out, it was the correct cap for the IH/Holley distributor. What was unique however, was the fact that the coil and plug cable towers were nearly 1/2" taller than OEM Holley caps, and the construction was much more robust! Also, full brass contacts, no aluminum. Those caps would put the plug cable terminals up outta that buried position on a SV motor and look REAL hi-tek to boot, kinda like a MSD "Power Tower"! They said that they had recently discovered the box (which had been stored away MANY years ago) but had no idea what application they were for, now they know!

When they told me they had been doing distributors and electrical components (wiper and blower motors) for Ernie Bisio as long as he had been in business (and still do work for him!), that was enough for me! That was automotive electrical NIRVANA!

Then came the climax to the visit...a complete orientation to the "electronic" conversions for Ford Flathead distributors which they do using custom-fabbed Pertronix units along with a high turn ratio, epoxy-potted coils which they manufacture in-house. Talk about a sleeper distributor!

If you check the price list posted on their website, you'll see that their posted base prices are VERY reasonable as compared to say an A-1 Cardone unit (available through MANY suppliers) and you get a tested/guaranteed unit back. In fact, they showed me some vacuum cans taken off A-1 Cardone units (not Holley/IH) which were supposed to be "new" but in actuality had only been chemically treated in the re-man process to make them "look" new, inside, they were rotten/in-op.

If you are a stickler for smogmotor advance actuation (correct p/n for application), or doing a full-on restoration where "correct" numbers matter, Philbin is surely the place to go! Same for a CORRECT distributor rebuild, curved to your specs, at a VERY reasonable cost, whether it's a Delco, IH/Holley, or Prestolight (they can handle ANY "electronic" distributor also).

Consider this a shameless commercial for the Philbin boys and girls!

Thanks very much, Mike, for that update! Sounds like we have a great place to get dizzy work done.

Did they mention what they would sell those Neihoff caps for?

[George Womack]

Michael-
That's great news, and even better news is that you're back to your loquacious self! I'm glad you're on the mend. Welcome back.

[M. Mayben]

Doug,

I did not ask about the price on the Neihoff distributor caps since I have several new Wells Gold caps (the IH red ones) in my stash AND, I'm making an attempt to quit using the IH/Holley distributors in my personal stuff and install Delcos in everything.

The Delco units are far easier to play with regarding mechanical advance curves (you can find parts for those at 7-11 except in Terlingua!), adjustable vac cans are available and are likewise real cheeep! Also, once remaned (if even needed, bushing/shaft-wise), they are bulletproof. Drop a Pertronix/Pertronix II in 'em and forget about 'em.

Send 'em an email and inquire as to the cost/availabilty of those caps. I "think" I posted the correct p/n we saw that day, that's the number I wrote down on a box I had with me. If not, just ask 'em about those black Niehoff IH/Holley caps that they showed that guy from Tejas who talked funny, the date for that visit was Feb. 2nd. I talked with Mark Nikolay and Joe Neisz that day, both members of the family which owns the company. Their email addy is:

info@philbingroup.com

Landline is: (800) 869.7301

George,

We also discussed the "workaround" conversion of the Delco 4 cylinder distributors using the Pertronix (not Pertronix II) unit. This is same deal which Will Marsh, you, and I have discussed here in the past in similar threads. They confirmed that the only "tricky" part of that deal is using a cutaway distributor cap to confirm proper "phasing" of the rotor before removing the magnet segments. That avoids butchering a rotor through removal of the wrong magnets!

I now have three 4 popper Delcos on hand to play with, since I'm kinda limited to very light duty, benchwork only, for the next month still, one of those is gonna come apart for inspection and if needed, it'll go up to Philbin for a full re-man and have them run it on a distributor machine for a "baseline". Then I'll use that one for putzing with, using the "adjustable" parts available from the aftermarket.

How's the bluebonnets on the River Road looking this year????