igintion upgrades..... how to ?

[Thomas]

-Go long cause I don't know when I'll be back, so I'm thrown the bomb.

---I'd ID your distributor first. Though I like the idea of a reliable & affordable bastard ignition system, what's the reason behind wanting to switch over? There's a thread here that shows pics of nearly every dizzy that can be found on our trucks. Final IH Distributor Identification Project thread. While it was less than complete, the images should help if you have no ID tag or stamp on yours.

---You know it's points? If Prestolite points, you need the dust cover just as well as f it were Prestolite Electronic. If no dust cover, the cap will not fit center, thus causing erratic firing due to variance in gap between center contact/carbon & spark plug towers/inserts. The Prestolite Dust Cover & the way it mounts over the dizzy, makes up for aprox. 1/16" of the dizzy's OD. The Prestolite's have a groove around the top outer edge for the dust cover to fit. Holleys have a sheer face. Delco (doubt you have this, but who knows) has the pin-type clamps on which you use a screwdriver.

---You're timing it off #8 cylinder right? IH SV8s time off #8. Firing order is 8 - 4 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 7 - 2 - 1. Crank & dizzy rotation is clockwise. #7 plug wire gets routed behind carb and up the even bank, so as to completely separate it from #5 and deter cross-fire. Never rotate the crank counter-clockwise, not even a smidgen. If you walk past TDC, ya gotta go around, passing the timing mark once, and stop on 8° (if a 304) BTDC, then point the rotor at a plug tower and call that tower #8... not #1... then put your timing light on the #8 wire.

---You rebuilt the carb? Hope the kit contained all the correct gaskets. There's a few that require a special gasket that only a few kits contain. I see that your carb does not require the same kits as mine, so I'd make sure yours didn't require this one...

Attached Thumbnails

... and if it did, it came with the above Main Body Gasket and was installed no matter what was on the carb before. See this post (2nd image) to get a better understanding.

---You installed a Power Valve Blow-Out Protector (AKA Check-valve) in that pre-1993 carb right? If not, one backfire while timing/tuning and you can blow the Power Valve... making you again suspect the ignition's the culprit, while insistently over-looking that freshly rebuilt carb. Reusable Bowl & Metering Plate Gaskets, a GFLT Accelerator Pump Diaphragm, Power Valve that has a better ethenol resistance than Holley's (they're about 10 years behind the times on this one) and a brass float, are a minimum of what I'd suggest with a rebuild. No need to change jet sizes but one size larger if at all, these aren't gas guzzling POChitvies that require 10%-20% larger jets for e85. Needle & Seat should have been a 0.097" and Power Valve most likely was a 7.5, standard of what they package, but causes the enrichment too early for us unless we're racing for pinks... lol. I'd recommend taking a vacuum reading at idle, dividing that by 2 and subtracting 2. round up to the nearest half... unless you want to drive with vacuum gauge viewable from the driver's seat. If so, there's a much better way to chose a Power Valve. It will still fall in the 4.5 to 6.5 range you come up with, but will be more snappy & less wasteful cause it's more realistic... more real-life than theory.

---The Holley 2300 as well as most other carbs we use, requires a thick Base Plate Gasket. The 2300's, will be Holley's 108-52 or Felpro's 60677. Without that you will chase idling, stumbling & sputtering problems forever, not to mention issues with heat soak & peculation. The 1/4" thick gasket also contains a heat shield/dam to protect the bowl from manifold heat.

---Test the Ballast resistor or resistance wire that runs to the coil and make sure it's within specs. Test the coil's primary & secondary windings as well as the condensor. Condensor should show infinite resistance between metal body and primary lead. Anything less and it's bad.

---There's nothing wrong with a points ignition. It'll have no better nor less a chance to withstand EMP if neither are encased in steel... lol. With proper maintenance, they last quite a long time. Just a cleaning, dab of grease and setting gap/dwell now and then and wear is normal wear. Plenty of vehicles still run points. Mallory has a points dizzy that's kickin glute still.

---I too run the Mallory Unilite, but with a stock coil (it's not biased; it makes no difference if stock, street or performance), the Circuit Guard (you need either this or the less proficient Active Power Filter) and the Ballast Resistor (not necessary if you have a CDI). The best thing about Prestolite, is the customer service. You're not going to find that quality in MSD, Pertronix or Davis. Besides, Mallory stomps just like MOPAR does at the races.

---I don't recall if I, in previous replies regarding Ignitor I/II/III, ever posted a screen capture of Pertronix's IHC appications, but it sure does look to me like they dropped a few or more modules for IH. That right there would be a good reason why I'd not* purchase from them... End of life = no longer supported... not counting decades of their fair-to-middlin' ignition components, being my main reason. I've never heard anything great* about them in the past 30+ years. Not even when installed in a POS Fiero! Besides, I never liked anything "lux" other than 40s-50s Electrolux canister-style vacuums.

---Ensure that all 30+year old, corroded body panels have a copper wire joining them together so you're not relying on rusty body seams to conduct electricity. Contrary to belief, steel conducts 23%, at best, that of copper. Jumper/Body Strap from Fender to Frame, Frame to Battery and Fender to Battery as well as Frame to Starter Mounting Bolt, Fender to Cowl, Cowl/Firewall/Bulkhead to Head, head to Dizzy Hold-Down Clamp Bolt, Firewall/Kicker Panel to Dash, Frame to Parking Light & Tail Light Bucket Ground & I guaranty your ignition won't be robbed. Besides, no matter what ignition you install, if grounds are bad, it won't be much more reliable than what you had.

Originally Posted by BO185

...The Ing II doesn't burn up when you leave the key on engine off...

---Not even Pertronix themselves will make that claim. They've said they haven't had any reports of it, but wouldn't recommend doing so, but never gave an affirmative "no" when asked. So, as most agree, the Ign I & II are no better than
the OEM ignitions.

[jauringer]

I've done all three of these conversion. Here's some info that may help in your decision. Keep in mind that I performed these on the Holly 1510 points type so depending on your distributor, some things may be a little different.

Pertronix is probably the easiest install but by far the least reliable. It seams like they'll either last 6 years or 6 months, so it's crap shot at best. Most people will tell you to carry your points in the glovebox just in case...not very reassuring but their customer support told me that's why they have a 30 month warranty!

The Mopar conversion is probably the next best from ease of install. The parts are cheap and it can be reliable depending on the application. You can also run an HEI module so you get all the latest tech. My knock on this conversion is the reluctor to pickup clearance. It's sensitive and vacuum advance can easily throw it out whack so unless you plan on disabling the vac advance and/or converting to fuel injection, I don't think it's your best option.

The Duraspark conversation is about as good as it gets. It takes a little more work to install as you have to do a little grinding on the cam if you have the 1510 but it's still very simple, very reliable, inexpensive, and parts are available just about anywhere. The pickup to reluctor clearance does not have to be set and this mod works very well with vacuum advance units. Whether you going EFI or just upgrading your dizzy for something more reliable, this one, in my opinion, is the most conversion friendly. Bill's got a full writeup in the injection forum so it's as simple as reading that thread and buying a few parts. You can even run a TFI coil and HEI module to get the best of all worlds.

I guess you also have the option of buying a new distributor but I can't imagine how that could be an option unless you just like to have name brand stuff.

Bastardized Distributor? I guess If I took similar components, painted a dizzy body, and named it Mallory, is it still a bastard? Or is that OK since it's sold under a name brand?

I hope this helps.

Jason

[96smoke-eater]

Thanks Kenny !.... I think I'll do the MOPAR conversion.... I'd rather have MOPAR than anything FORD !

[BO185]

Originally Posted by Thomas

---Not even Pertronix themselves will make that claim. They've said they haven't had any reports of it, but wouldn't recommend doing so, but never gave an affirmative "no" when asked. So, as most agree, the Ign I & II are no better than
the OEM ignitions.

Really.

Straight from the pertronix website. http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

Bottom right under "All the benefits of the the original Ignitor...
...and MORE!"

-Senses incorrectly wired Ignitor II or a "key left on" condition and shuts down the system protecting the coil and other components from damage.

It does state in the install guide that key left on will overheat coil and damage the unit, but the install guide is for both I & II

A I have an Ignitor I and its ran fine for 15 years. But I NEVER leave key on engine off longer than few sec. Now my travelette had an ignitor II and never had a problem. I removed it and install a TBI ignition module set up. And sold it. Guy tried to install it and it never work per his claims. But I ended up giving it to the guy for free, as I refuned his money and told him to keep it, so not sure it his installed killed it or what but it was weird as it was working perfect a week before I sold it.

So I guess it is hit or miss with them.

[Bill usn-1]

Originally Posted by 96smoke-eater

Thanks Kenny !.... I think I'll do the MOPAR conversion.... I'd rather have MOPAR than anything FORD !

As mentioned, the mopar is more suited for the EFI conversion since it is difficult for most to properly position the pickup to allow for the proper operation of the vacuum adv.
Now if you are looking to duplicate the $450 DUI distr that most have to remove the vacuum adv to make it fit...then you will be fine knowing this in advanced. But you are losing 6-10* of timing that is helpful during around town driving.

The duraspark pickup and plate are better suited for carb use.
You are only using the plate, pickup and reluctor so brand loyalty really isn't at issue here.
It's not like your ripping the heart of your IH out and replacing it with some other brand.

[96smoke-eater]

If its better and fairly inexpensive then I dont care what it comes off of... I am a die heart GM guy but, I enjoy anything automobile related...Im new at all this IH stuff, So Im trying to take it all in.... I 'd like to do the best , most reliable and least exspensive ignition up grade. I'd like to stay with my Holley 2300 2bbl... Im pretty mechanically inclined, So I hope the conversion aint too hard to do.. Thanks for your advice !
How about hedders for these old 345 V-8 Scouts ? Is that a good idea ?

[Patrick Morris]

Originally Posted by BO185

I assumed since the OP asked about the Pertroincs he had a points dizzy.

With a holley dis you can get the Ignitor II. The Ing II doesn't burn up when you leave the key on engine off.

Click the link in my SIG below for more details.

I see. I was thinking he could have a Prestolite as well and have been asking about Pertronics. Looking back, I realize that converting a Prestolite distr to a Pertronics ignition isn't really an upgrade; it's more like just changing over to different and less expensive internals.

I swapped out the guts of my Prestolite about 10 years ago for an Ignitor because the original electronics went south. But of course I could only get the original Ignitor. When I bought my Scout in '91, the seller gave me a few extra parts with it, including what I learned later was a Holley distributor for the 345. I can't remember what became of it, but it's gone now and I'm bummed that I didn't see the advantage of that type of distributor until it had disappeared. It would have been nice to convert to an Ignitor II setup. There's hindsight for ya.

And yes, that's a good point, about the Ignitor burning out if you leave the key in the ON position. It's one of the advantages to the Ignitor II I was thinking of. It's one reason I decided eventually to spend the money and carry spare Ignitor in my Scout.

[96smoke-eater]

Thanks for all the info .... You guys have been very helpful

[Bill usn-1]

Here's some info on your distr.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...ht=holley+tips

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by BO185

... Straight from the pertronix website. http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

Bottom right under "All the benefits of the the original Ignitor...
...and MORE!"...

... So I guess it is hit or miss with them...

---If you have followed topic about their products (including URLs given), you'd know they've always had the problem with the I, & in plain font on their site, wouldn't recommend doing it with the II. What I stated in my first reply was pretty much an exact quote (I.E., "... had no reports...
... but we would not recommend doing so".). So, design flaws corrected, keep the same version number? I don't agree to "rumor has it" (AKA "hear-say"), ask them why the change, but maybe they have revamped the Ignitor II to cover their butts, or they have passed their own statutes of limitations, feeling safe to say it doesn't happen. Maybe one install guide for both products helps them with customer support issues...

-... Fact is that so many people never actually see a warranty replacement because the product outlives the warranty period or they claim the issue was due to bad grounds.

---Seriously, they have used the bad grounds claim for decades (is why I always stress going over grounds [hots naturally get more attention] before considering a new ignition). Now, what you see on the internet could be as made up as sigs on a dating site, but understand, it's not preference. IH isn't when I was introduced to them. I made a statement about Fieros because it was during my Pontiac Fiero gold-digging/grave-robbing days (`round `90-`93) that I first encountered issues with their tech department. Fieros were only built for four years, and all preferences aside, were a pretty decent product made by the "scrap line" (AKA Pontiac) of GM. So knowing their major issue was grounds, I and a few friends bought up as many as we could (burnt or not) and rewired, rebuilt, sold upgraded ones & scrapped the burnt ones. We had to have sold over 40 in those 3+ years... and on our first go-around with Pertronix, burned up three Ignitors & after hours of phone calls ("car phone" bills [Century Cellnet] weren't cheap then) & helping them (and ourselves) get down to what the issue was, we were told on the third one that it was due to grounds (remember, on a completely rewired vehicle) & they wouldn't warranty a 3rd replacement, we said off to them and never looked back. We were being very helpful (I could come up with an underestimated, fictitious number like a $600 car phone bill), and they just dropped the ball. I hope, for those who bought stock in their products, that they haven't dropped the ball with IH too. Again, they had more products for more IH dizzies not long ago and there's most likely threads where I have contributed, that include those now dead part numbers... or they're just not listed (I.E., "... If you can’t find your application in our Catalog / Application Guide, it does not mean that a kit is not available. We have many kits that have been developed for distributors and applications not listed in the Application guide. You may call our main office at 800-827-3758 for additional help..."). Surely those SLLP dealers who bought stock would know if I am misremembering. I don't take much interest in them, but to help people find P/Ns & research/acquire installation/tech help documents & such, so while I have been over their site time & time again, my personal/internal RAM may be corrupt.

Originally Posted by jauringer

... Bastardized...

-No,

---"Bastard" is a term that is used when describing a component that is manufactured to join two incompatible products. It is most commonly used when referring to U-Joints where two size bearing cups are combine to mismatch drivetrain components. Google it for a better description if needed. There's many P/Ns that you might find interesting just in the u-joint category if you like Chitvy craporate axles or just find a need for them. My Mallory purchases as well as previous suggestion, was not a preference thing. My purchase is what I saw as a wise decision. Mallory has been a superior electronics company for nearly a century. It's kinda like International built farm implements... and since trucks are used on the farm as well as tractors, most* of their trucks are superior ... if not surprisingly durable. The suggestion was thrown out just like any others'.

---As an "old-school" lover of MOPAR, and knowing that their electronics were always overly-expensive, it's truly nice to see the cost of building a reliable, bastard ignition doesn't discourage invention.

---The one word you extracted from that paragraph seemingly detoured my point/inquiry. Excuse me, but I feel it necessary to try again...

-..."Though I like the idea of a reliable & affordable bastard ignition system, what's the reason behind wanting to switch over?"...



-96smoke-eater,

--The usual derived & understood "He wants to do this `cause it's his truck" assumption/conclusion set aside; Is there some evidence the ignition is failing? Is it just because you don't prefer points? What? There's lots of projects you & the boy can save money for if the there's nothing wrong with the ignition... or if there's something simple that could be throwing you off. The first thing I would suggest spending $40-$100± on has already been suggested, the Factory* Service Manual(s), and most definitely not* trusting Chitlons. Maybe someone should start a thread about "The I made while following the non-factory service manual", so as others (who take time to search) can find detrimental errors caused by following non-IH repair manuals. Besides, you'll find thousands of contradictions to the manuals on the net.

---I only asked 'cause I'm not assuming you bought winning lottery tickets & just want to spend money. I'm considering you're eager to get going & something we might know as a general issue due to age (E.G., the bronze dizzy shaft bushing pressed into the block, wrong/bad Ignition Switch, too many keys hung from the Ignition Lock Cylinder, damaged Condensor/Coil/Resistance Wire/Starter Solenoid, Bulkhead Connector and/or Terminals are worn/Burnt/Damaged/Loose, the wrong Base Plate Gasket, etc.,) and questions asked might prevent your 15th post being "I changed this, this & that & it's still doing this".

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

... the mopar is more suited for the EFI conversion since it is difficult for most to properly position the pickup to allow for the proper operation of the vacuum adv...

... The duraspark pickup and plate are better suited for carb use.
You are only using the plate, pickup and reluctor so brand loyalty really isn't at issue here.
It's not like your ripping the heart of your IH out and replacing it with some other brand...

---That is exactly what I meant when I stated "bastard". Hope you understand that I'm thankful to everyone who puts forth effort; You, B. Mounteer, C. Gebhart, C. Rush and others went a good distance when it came to dissecting/examining/mutating ("IT'S ALIVE!) ignition components over the last decade or better, & your Frankensteins (NOTE: cosmetically more attractive than the monster "themselves"), have always been appreciated by me. Whether or not I presently have use for them, they will remain invaluable projects.

Originally Posted by TBAKPhi22

... I had a Mallory unilite for about a month (if that) and the module went out. Never going to do that again...

-Just wondering,

---Did you install the Points Conversion by itself, Unilite Dizzy, dizzy w/Ballast Resistor, what? The only problem I have had in the past 5 yrs or so was my installing an old module first, cause I had two new, spare modules as back-ups and about 3 mos later it failed cause it was installed incorrectly by its PO. No problems other than having to replace the Vacuum Advance Pod cause the whole unit was a NOS 1st gen & the Vacuum Advance diaphragm acquired a leak.