Rebuilding a 304

[IH64Scout]

Ok, what retainers do you recommend?

[jauringer]

Thanks Bill.

fortunately, I located the retainers mentioned in my previous post at a local speed shop and are a perfect fit. They lightly snap into the spring.

Comp Cams 7 deg BBC/BBF/Chrysler retainer # 744-16 7 deg locks (Comp 10deg locks PN:740-16)

New valve springs with larger diameters require new retainers to handle the springs' higher pressure. COMP Cams' standard steel retainers are made of 4140 chromemoly with a black oxide finish. Their tool steel is approximately 33% lighter than standard steel and 2-4 grams heavier than titanium. When upgrading from steel to titanium retainers, you gain speed and power because titanium is lighter and stronger. COMP Cams' titanium design prevents retainer splitting that can tear up an engine at 10,000 RPM.

Jason

[jauringer]

Picked up my heads today! Everything looks pretty good so far. I did notice my guides are a hair shorter .010-.020"

Exhaust side milled.


Heads surfaces .010"


3 angles on the seats


2 angles on the valves -45deg w/ a 30deg back cut, valve tips surfaced


New guides pressed in and two new springs test fit for height.


I made a phone call to enginetech just as Jeff did regarding the seals. They referred me to Mabbco who I've already been dealing with here in town so I'll run by tomorrow and take a look at what they have.

My test fit indicates the top of the spring (not retainer) to the head is 1.95", subtract .050" for the OE spring seat and I'm @ 1.90 right now. This is only on the intake side as I'm at a perfect 1.85 on the exhaust.

Objective tomorrow is to get these heads put together so I need pick up a few .050 shims and figure out what seals I want to use.

Bill, in your previous post you mention not to duplicate the pictured ring and umbrella seal together. There are actually people doing that, I read a few articles today about it. The o-ring style inhibits oil from sliding down the valve past the umbrella and the umbrella deflects oil splash. It would look as if that spring around this new seal is attempting to combat both oil paths with one seal.

Thanks,
Jason

[jeff campbell]

i also was planning on using both seals,jeff

[IH64Scout]

Sounds like a plan, for some reason I was confusing the 2 piece locks with the retainers.the factory locks are fine right? I have some ordering to do next paycheck, this paycheck il putting money down on the dt466 for my step side!

[Bill usn-1]

Bill, in your previous post you mention not to duplicate the pictured ring and umbrella seal together.

If your thinking it...no, you do not need to install the factory oring seal.

You can do it anyway you want.

The umbrella seal will slide up to the top of the vavle stem and stay there. it does not stick to the valve guide.
As mentioned in the original write up I do not recommend the thick seals because there is a chance of them binding as the cam hits max lift.

So now you are planning to stack the oring seal on top of the umbrella seal that is setting in the same location and doing the same job.


??????
What are you expecting to gain?
If the two get smashed together at max lift then over time one of them will fail and end up in your drain back holes.

You read a lot of stuff on the web....you really need to apply some logic and resonable thought to it before just following it because you read it somewhere.

That includes my recomendations.

But I at least try to show and test myself, anything i post and not just blindly repeat what someone posted on the web.

if you really want to stack the seal then preassemble with a light spring and measure the distance the valve can move before the seals bind.
then use the cam lift and rocker rtio to determine how much the valve will actually move.
then see if you really have the clearance to run both.

[Bill usn-1]

Originally Posted by IH64Scout

Sounds like a plan, for some reason I was confusing the 2 piece locks with the retainers.the factory locks are fine right? I have some ordering to do next paycheck, this paycheck il putting money down on the dt466 for my step side!

I sent a msg to the guy selling those springs.
in the ad on ebay he specifically states he has the retainers and keepers.
here's his reply.

Hi we do have the retainers and locks for these springs, they are not listed on our e-bay store, the price for the kit is $29.00Thanks Al

So if you want the ones for those springs just order them from the same guy you got them from.

If you buy retainers separately then make sure the keeper angle matches the retainer.
Do not mix the 7* and 10* parts.

[jauringer]

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

You can do it anyway you want.

The umbrella seal will slide up to the top of the vavle stem and stay there. it does not stick to the valve guide.
As mentioned in the original write up I do not recommend the thick seals because there is a chance of them binding as the cam hits max lift.

So now you are planning to stack the oring seal on top of the umbrella seal that is setting in the same location and doing the same job.


??????
What are you expecting to gain?
If the two get smashed together at max lift then over time one of them will fail and end up in your drain back holes.

You read a lot of stuff on the web....you really need to apply some logic and resonable thought to it before just following it because you read it somewhere.

That includes my recomendations.

But I at least try to show and test myself, anything i post and not just blindly repeat what someone posted on the web.

if you really want to stack the seal then preassemble with a light spring and measure the distance the valve can move before the seals bind.
then use the cam lift and rocker rtio to determine how much the valve will actually move.
then see if you really have the clearance to run both.

Please reread my post.

Originally Posted by jauringer

Bill, in your previous post you mention not to duplicate the pictured ring and umbrella seal together. There are actually people doing that, I read a few articles today about it. The o-ring style inhibits oil from sliding down the valve past the umbrella and the umbrella deflects oil splash. It would look as if that spring around this new seal is attempting to combat both oil paths with one seal.

As you can see, it was mearly a comment to your comment. I'm not even sold on the umbrellas, much less stacking seals or swithching to one that looks to inhibit guide oiling even further.

Here's an old quote of mine from when I swithced my runner to umbrella style.

The umbrella seals are on now too. After putting those suckers on the valves and looking at the operation, if I didn't now better, I would say there's no way for the valve to get oil with these seals, but obviously a lot of folks run them as well as many manufacturer's, so what do I know... pretty much nothing!

Jason

[Bill usn-1]

i also was planning on using both seals,jeff

Many have a misconception that somehow the umbrella seal is restricting lubrication to the valve stem.
that just isn't the case.
The umbrella seal simply helps to reduce or prevent the dripping and splashing of excess oil around the the stem.
A PC style seal actually presses on to the valve guide and the stem slides up and down thru the seal.
So it is a positive seal.
But even those have been used successfully with the steel guides since some oil film will still remain on the stems. The zinc content helps.

I don't now or ever have bought into the IH smokes at startup and was designed to do it.
It does nothing but burn oil and cause excess polution. (not that i'm a greeny) I tried to prove my point by only installing the umbrella seals on the rear cyl of each head and the smoke stopped. So if designed to do then why didn't the other 6 cyls still smoke on start up?
Too many car/engine manufacturers out there using the oring seals that don't blow smoke.
And most now use the umbrella or PC seals for better oil control and emissions.

The umbrella seal operates exactly like an oring seal except it has a skirt on it so the excess oil runs off around the stem and guide instead of dripping on it.

Food for thought....if your V8 burns just 1 drop of oil each time the cylinders fires, you will burn about 1 qt of oil in about 7 miles.

If your IH uses a qt of oil between oil changes...where is it going. Why don't modern engines use oil like that?

[jauringer]

Originally Posted by Bill usn-1

Many have a misconception that somehow the umbrella seal is restricting lubrication to the valve stem.
that just isn't the case.
The umbrella seal simply helps to reduce or prevent the dripping and splashing of excess oil around the the stem.
A PC style seal actually presses on to the valve guide and the stem slides up and down thru the seal.
So it is a positive seal.
But even those have been used successfully with the steel guides since some oil film will still remain on the stems. The zinc content helps.

I don't now or ever have bought into the IH smokes at startup and was designed to do it.
It does nothing but burn oil and cause excess polution. (not that I'm a greeny) I tried to prove my point by only installing the umbrella seals on the rear cyl of each head and the smoke stopped. So if designed to do then why didn't the other 6 cyls still smoke on start up?
Too many car/engine manufacturers out there using the oring seals that don't blow smoke.
And most now use the umbrella or PC seals for better oil control and emissions.

The umbrella seal operates exactly like an oring seal except it has a skirt on it so the excess oil runs off around the stem and guide instead of dripping on it.

Food for thought....if your V8 burns just 1 drop of oil each time the cylinders fires, you will burn about 1 qt of oil in about 7 miles.

If your IH uses a qt of oil between oil changes...where is it going. Why don't modern engines use oil like that?

Good points, I can appreciate that, and the fact that you have successfully ran them for so long with no ill effects is the main reason I didn't yank them after initial inspection. BTW: my trucks running perfectly fine with them and that's why I've decided to go ahead with them on this one. (version 1 seal).

what blows my mind is after all those years of IH making the SV8's, why in the world didn't they ever move to a better seal? The "Smoke at start up" pkg is not a selling point.

Having said all that, I just picked up a Comp Shim kit and Felpro Premium (polyacrylate) BBF valve seal kit. I'm about to get started on the heads. I plan on posting the process later.

Jason