1972 Travelall - Starting Issues

[tsmall07]

Another update. I broke away the melted plastic and reconnected the red wire to see what happened. When I turn the key to "start" the red wire starts smoking. Maybe I need to go home and read the manual. What do you guys think?

Edit: I just jumped the starter solenoid with a screw driver and the solenoid actuated, but the motor didn't turn.

[scoutboy74]

Originally Posted by tsmall07

I got the ignition switch out and there is a red wire on the main connector that is pretty toasty and the connector is melted. Looks like there may have been a small fire in there. Anyone know what the red wire is for?

Its a warning sign. You got some bad electrical ju-ju goin' on.

Originally Posted by tsmall07

Another update. I broke away the melted plastic and reconnected the red wire to see what happened. When I turn the key to "start" the red wire starts smoking. Maybe I need to go home and read the manual. What do you guys think?

Edit: I just jumped the starter solenoid with a screw driver and the solenoid actuated, but the motor didn't turn.

Reading the manual is never a bad idea. The starter didn't engage because: A. Battery voltage has been depleted below the threshold for starter actuation, or B. The starter motor and/or solenoid has malfunctioned, or C. All the above. Too many variables at this point. You need to rule some out beginning with your power source.

[tsmall07]

The battery voltage is good. I even swapped out a known good battery. Could the ignition switch contact burn out if the starter motor is burned out?

There seems to be mixed opinions on the gear reduction starters. Do you guys think they are worth the extra $200? My motor does have trouble turning when hot. I was going to try a larger battery, but now it looks like I have to replace the starter. Awesome since I just replaced the solenoid... Maybe I'll try to find someone to rebuild it.

[scoutboy74]

Okay good. You're getting somewhere. You're in this predicament because your electrical system is not up to snuff, not because your engine has so much compression that it needs a beefier starter motor. These are low compression engines. They light off extremely quick and easy when properly timed with fuel and spark uniting at the proper moment. When the electrical system is sound from end to end, you can crank a stock starter motor until the battery runs dead or you overheat it and catch it on fire, not that I recommend the practice.

[RobertC]

From post #1

"I've had an issue in the past where the starter motor starts cranking the motor even with the key off. "

What is the device in post #8? I do not know (and I know you asked.). Trevor thought it might be a remote starter relay. Some people put a "Ford relay" on their Scouts to help hard starting though I do not know if people use one on T/As. (I do not.) This dow not look like one of those

Does the red wire at the ignition switch go to this device?

Before you get a new starter, you might try removing / bypassing this device and see what happens. It is not a stock / factory item.

[tsmall07]

Thanks again for the help. I still can't fathom why the ignition switch wire would burn up. According to the wiring diagram, the problem wire is the one that goes to the S terminal on the starter. I don't understand why it would burn up like that. It looks like there is some corrosion on the connector. Maybe the corrosion caused enough resistance to cause the heat. I'm going to replace the connector and clean up the contact tomorrow and see what happens. I guessing I'll probably still have to replace the starter.

[tsmall07]

Originally Posted by RobertC

What is the device in post #8? I do not know (and I know you asked.). Trevor thought it might be a remote starter relay. Some people put a "Ford relay" on their Scouts to help hard starting though I do not know if people use one on T/As. (I do not.) This dow not look like one of those

Does the red wire at the ignition switch go to this device?

Before you get a new starter, you might try removing / bypassing this device and see what happens. It is not a stock / factory item.

Glad to hear it is not factory. I will bypass it tomorrow. There are no wires going to it other than the ground in and ground out.

[Eric VanBuren]

That thing inline with the battery ground looks like a cutoff switch to me. It isn't factory but it is not going to cause the issue you are describing, removing it is not a bad idea though.

Regarding the actual problem the reason the start wire is smoking is because there is more current flowing through it than it can handle. The fact that you got the solenoid to actuate but the starter didn't crank indicates either the solenoid itself is bad or the starter is done or both. Running w/o the heat shield can take out a starter pretty quick. That is one of the reasons I got my T-all so cheap. It's started had died the owner took it to a place that specialized in starters and alternators where they replaced it. A few weeks later he had to take it back, they installed another under warranty, another few weeks with occasional use and it was done yet again. After they replaced that one they said don't bring it back because we aren't giving you a 4th. So I was able to pick it up cheap limp it home where I installed a starter and heat shield from a parts truck and haven't had a problem since.

While you are going through all of that it is a great time to refresh the + side of the battery cables and add a Ford starter relay. Many people do it to cure the "hot start" problem but it does so much more. Like preventing the solenoid shorting from either causing the engine to crank w/o the key or to keep cranking once you let off the key and the only way to stop it is to disconnect the battery cable. With the Ford starter relay there is only power at the starter when it is activated so if those not so uncommon GM solenoid issues rear their ugly head, usually at the most inopportune times, it won't cause an issue since you have a relay that has proven to not have such problems to cut the main power to the starter. That also gets all the main power wires away from the exhaust heat.

[RobertC]

Originally Posted by tsmall07

Glad to hear it is not factory. I will bypass it tomorrow. There are no wires going to it other than the ground in and ground out.

Guess the eyes (and mind) are fading fast -- somehow thought there were other wires attached to it.... It would appear to be just a "device" to provide a body ground.

Also. missed the edit in your post where you said you "jumped" the solenoid with a screwdriver.

Most likely, the brushes are bad (worn down) in your starter.

Yes, the starter heat shield is a good thing...

If you replace the brushes yourself, you should also check condition of the arm / lever. The round metal "tabs" on the lever that "push" the bendix "forward" wear down over time. Also, do not lose the composite washer on the "end" of the starter shaft - end where the shaft slides into the "dimple" on the end plate.

[tsmall07]

So do you guys think the cloth heat wrap would be sufficient on the exhaust or do I need a metal heat shield?