Crashed Scout....:(

[mike4514]

The Scout Master, I think I see where you are going with this, and that would make sense. However, in WI each time a title is tranfered to another person you have to apply for a new title. In WI the license plates belong to the person, not the vehicle, so when you sell a vehicle you keep your plates. The new owner must apply for a new title and plates or transfer there current plates to that vehicle. That is what you were reading and possibly missunderstanding.

As far a salvage title goes, it is important when you read the state statutes to notice the key words of "and" "or". A lot of times statutes will make a statement and then qualify it with and "and" where that must also occure and if it doesn't then the statement is not valid. That is the case in what you were reading.

There is also more than just statutes regulating salvage vehicles. They are also covered by Tranportation Code 303, 150 and others.

[David Dixon]

You probably already know a lot about the actual cash value calculations but here is what I have learned...

I have continued to talk with the vehicle assessor for the insurer - he is a subcontractor who works for multiple agencies - and I gave him sources, phone#s and prices including shipping for all the repair panels needed so that he can do the repair guestimate. I also gave him a copy of my 2005 appraisal by super scout specialists and a list of comparable vehicle completed auction sales and classifieds. So they have all the info. (Of course the next guy I talk to probably won't know that I have all the info.) It is my understanding that pretty much all the big insurers use one of several independent computer databases of vehicle prices to inform their decision. I was told that the assessor will fill out a form he referred to as a 'CCC' and I infer that is in reference to CCC Information Services Group, Inc., and that they probably fill out a form on a website specifying the make, model, trim level, condition of paint, tires &c. &c. for a vehicle and out pops a price range and report. It is useful to note that there is apparently a range, not a single number, and if the guy says that he cannot adjust it then that may be true, but his boss or his bosses boss CAN adjust that number. They will naturally start at the bottom of the range and of course you want to be awarded the top number or ask for a reappraisal. The law obviously varies by state, but they should be required to reveal the details that they used to arrive at the cash value of the vehicle, and they should reveal the list of comparable vehicles for sale in your area.

CCC apparently has something like 80+% market share among car insurers. Here is what there website says:

Originally Posted by CCCwebsite

CCC Valuescope® Claim Services provide Fast, Accurate, Local Market Value® information for total loss vehicles, including extensive, in-depth VIN information.

The CCC Valuescope® Market Report provides your staff with a valuation focused on the individual loss vehicle, specific to the local market—not to a multi-state region. Our comprehensive and easy to understand report provides an explanation of the local market area and the valuation methodology used to determine the vehicle value.

Benefits:

The Market Report is focused on the individual private passenger loss vehicle, specific to its local-market area.
Access vehicle history records through the powerful VINguard™ feature with Experian's AutoCheck®.
Includes information specific to a vehicle's life history, such as, salvage or junk title, flood, fire or storm damage, odometer rollbacks and previous use as a taxi, or rental car of lease vehicle.


For more information about CCC Valuescope Claim Services, call your CCC sales account manager.

I have read some rotten reports about how biased CCCs methodology is, and also some reports that they are pretty accurate. So I guess I will see where they stand on Scouts.

Case against CCC methodology here http://www.theplan.com/documents/Ryanarticle.htm

nice short writeup of another guys experience with the total loss dept. and CCC

http://volokh.com/2011/02/12/lessons...oss-valuation/


In your case the valuation report will certainly come out in discovery. I don't think that you will have any problem picking apart their case as the facts are on your side and are pretty easy to document. I can't imagine the case would ever make it past discovery. Of course I am naive. I figure that the key tactic that the insurer uses is delay. The longer they keep the cash in their account the more interest they earn on it, and the more pressure most folks feel to settle.

Here is another summation.

Originally Posted by Smart Money

5. "We’ll stiff you if your car is totaled..."

Your collision policy entitles you to fair market value for your totaled car’s worth. But the amount you actually get could leave you feeling shortchanged. Until the mid-1990s, insurers determined car values by averaging the prices in the National Market Reports Automobile Red Book and the National Automobile Dealers Association’s Official Used Car Guide. Now companies like CCC Information Services in Chicago control the market -- and the prices they give out are almost always lower than the book values.

CCC looks at cars for sale in your area in similar condition, along with local ads, to determine values. But where the old book listings used to provide a "list" price (what the car might be offered for on a used-car lot), the CCC number represents a "take" price (the absolute lowest price that a used-car dealer would accept for it). Of course, there’s no guarantee that your insurer will pay you even CCC’s figure. "Our customer is the insurance company," says CCC senior vice president Jack Rozint. "We don’t provide the settlement amount."

What can you do to protect yourself? When your insurer hands you a CCC report, it usually lists the actual cars the company used for comparison. Jot down the vehicle identification numbers to make sure they actually exist and that there are no mistakes. Jim Bryant of Neptune City, N.J., totaled his 1994 Mercedes 500 SEL, and his insurance company quoted him a CCC value of $9,500. On the report, an eight-cylinder diesel Mercedes was listed for comparison. Yet Mercedes has never made such a car. "They came back and gave us $12,770," Bryant says. "CCC has valued about 22 million vehicles," replies Rozint. "So you’re probably going to get a couple of people who say that theirs wasn’t done right."

[David Dixon]

On the subject of Salvage titles - in Maine it really doesn't matter for Scouts. Vehicles manufactured before 1995 are not issued titles unless you request a special "antique auto" (1916-1987ish) or "classic auto" (16-25 years old more or less) title and state that its value is more than $5000. Not sure if they would then use that value as the new basis for excise tax - I wouldn't put it past 'em. Basically, for older vehicles, your bill of sale is the only title you use or need.

Maine does require that insurance companies report totaled vehicles to the state. Technically, the law says that they shall apply for a salvage title, but the law also states that no titles shall be issued for vehicles manufactured before 1995. Liberty Mutual did not seem too concerned about it when they totaled my scout. They said that all they do is file a report.

The motor vehicle inspection process is perhaps more involved than in other states. So where other states would send a state trooper to inspect a vehicle that was "rebuilt salvage" here I gather that if it passes inspection then that is all that is required. I may find out different if I try to register my totaled scout later on. I know that if you build a kit car or some other miscegenation and want the state to issue you a VIN# then you have to have it inspected by the state police. I think it only costs around $30.

-D

[David Dixon]

On dealing with insurance companies in general:

If you read about the subject on the web you mostly find horror stories and gripes. Mike's experience is certainly not the worst out there, it is a shame that he will have to go to file a lawsuit over it though. It would appear he has a good case and I expect it probably will get settled without going to trial.

In the interest of balance I thought I would report on my own recent experience.

The local (to New England, they used to have an office in the state but no longer do,) insurance company Peerless has been swallowed up by Liberty Mutual. They have a lot of people who are connected to a claim that want to talk to you and they work in different offices in different states. So you pretty much tell each of them the same thing and wait for them to pass the claim on to the next party.

I gave the assessor who looked at the damaged truck all the information that he needed to do his report. I already had an appraisal done by SSS. And I gave him a list of sources for repair panels etc. There was no question that the cost of repairs would far exceed the cash value of the truck (pre-loss, as they say, or before the accident.) The only real question would be the cash value of a nicely restored scout six years down the road. At this point we find the silver lining to the crazy prices people (myself included as of today) pay for scouts. It is easy to find ads and completed auction sale data for scouts selling for over $10k.

Getting the insurance company to accept that valuation is the tough part. In my case, when the assessor looked at the truck all smashed up and couldn't see ANY rust, he was pretty impressed. Most new cars around here that are five or six years old have some rust issues that show up when you start tearing the seams apart. So he wrote a report that worked for me. The next thing that probably helped is that CCCValuescope choked on their report. They never returned a report. So the total loss adjuster went on line to look for info and decided that the SSS appraisal was probably accurate. From there it was just a matter of me driving for the best bargain I could get. I insisted that because the only comparable vehicles for sale were all located in places like Texas, Florida, Oregon, etc. that they should pay for transporting a vehicle across the country. I spoke with the claims adjuster, her boss the "unit leader," and finally the claims manager. I eventually settled for a sum higher than what I had initially asked for, so I can hardly complain. I was hopping mad for a few days in between though. I mean really !#@$% mad.

So patience, thorough documentation and attention to detail... and determination won out in the end.

The best source for free advice out there that I found was here: http://www.pettydetailsllc.com/consu...resources.html

I can't speak for his consulting services.

Hopefully Mike will get his due without too much further aggravation.

-D

[Thomas]

---Haven't heard much about this lately. Not a "got new parts", "Scout was dropped at the shop" nor a "Scout came home today". What's the word?

[mike4514]

Tomarrow is the big day, we are filing the law suit in court. As it ended up the insurance company said its just an old rusty truck and its only worth $1860, of that they offered me $860 with the truck being totaled.

Since then we have gotten two apraisals on the truck, the first from SSS came in at $7,000 and the second from the Scout Connection came in at $8,000-8,500. So I think the truck may be worth more than $860.

I went and got 3 estimates to repair the damage from local shops, they came in at $3200, $3900, $4000. The insruance claims adjuster estimate was $3000.

So there are a few items the Judge will have to decide, but overall we feel good about the case. Here in WI we can get attorney fees, expenses and court costs as well so if I win any part of the suit it will end up costing the insurance company more in those amounts than what I would have settled for.

Court should be in 30 days, I will post back when I know more.

[joker51]

Good luck with the case Mike. In my opinion they should be repairing it or replacing it as it wasnt your fault and you are an innocent party to this. Hopefully you will have this Scout rebuilt and a little money in the pocket for your time.


Joker51

[Darrel]

Good luck with the case. I have no doubt you'll win.
I'm surprised the ins company is still fighting it though.
Did your lawyer not send them the documentation and letter?

[mike4514]

Thanks, I will be sure to keep updating as I go along.

[mudturk37]

i just read 8 pages of this thread

here i am on the edge of my seat......and we didn't hear what happened