Clattering noise revisited again.

[Mernjohn]

Never solved the clattering noise in my 304 which was the subject of several posts and responses months ago.

I eliminated every possible noise maker external to the engine. I have now pulled the engine and have it partially disassembled. Rocker shafts, pushrods and lifters are removed. Intake manifold, valley cover and timing gear cover are removed. Clutch, flywheel, distributor and water pump are removed.

I have plugged the two rocker shaft oil supply holes in the heads and turned the oil pump with an electric drill. I get a little oil out of each hole that supplies oil to the lifters. Don't know how much to expect. The pump puts a good strain on the drill and it won't turn the pump very fast. Crankshaft and camshaft are set so the timing marks match up. Should I expect oil to squirt out of the holes?

Haven't inspected the lifters yet. They were new about five months ago. Camshaft was new a year ago.

My IHC Truck Service manual says the clattering can be caused by air in the oil. How can I determine if there is air in the oil? If the pump suction screen is below the oil level and the O-ring at the suction line connection is new where can air get in the system?

All comments will be appreciated.

Originally Posted by Mernjohn

Never solved the clattering noise in my 304 which was the subject of several posts and responses months ago.

I eliminated every possible noise maker external to the engine. I have now pulled the engine and have it partially disassembled. Rocker shafts, push rods and lifters are removed. Intake manifold, valley cover and timing gear cover are removed. Clutch, flywheel, distributor and water pump are removed.

I have plugged the two rocker shaft oil supply holes in the heads and turned the oil pump with an electric drill. I get a little oil out of each hole that supplies oil to the lifters. Don't know how much to expect. The pump puts a good strain on the drill and it won't turn the pump very fast. Crankshaft and camshaft are set so the timing marks match up. Should I expect oil to squirt out of the holes?

Haven't inspected the lifters yet. They were new about five months ago. Camshaft was new a year ago.

My IHC Truck Service manual says the clattering can be caused by air in the oil. How can I determine if there is air in the oil? If the pump suction screen is below the oil level and the O-ring at the suction line connection is new where can air get in the system?

All comments will be appreciated.

I'm not an engine builder so I cannot speak with authority but my post will bump the thread to the top again.

Did this thing ever run quite after the new lifters were installed?

I ask because they can have air in them when they are installed and you may never get it out. And I would inspect the lifters for wear. Hopefully you used plenty of the special lube on them before you installed them especially with a "new" cam that had already been run with old lifters. And once you pull the lifters look down the bores at the cam lobes too. Hopefully you wont see any wear but you never know until you look.

[mporter52]

If you have air in your oil, as far as I know the oil will look foamy. Hard to explain.

Mike

[Mernjohn]

Doug and Mike I appreciate the comments. I see no wear on the cam or mating lifter surfaces. Just a little polishing. I checked each lifter by putting them in my arbor press and applying a load to the plunger. I could barely move it. Just a little oil came out of the hole where the oil goes in. If there was any air I could have compressed it and moved the plunger further. Oil has no foamy appearance. Putting in the new lifters had no effect on the noise which still comes and goes. Turning the oil pump with an electric drill produces oil at each hole where oil would be supplied to the lifters. More oil appears at the holes at the back than at the front which is reasonable since the oil is supplied at the back.

I'm going to remove the plugs at the ends of the oil gallery and the plate at the rear of the cam. Will try to clean it all out. The plug at the rear has a 5/16" square recess. Unable to buy a tool to fit. Will grind down a spare 3/8' drive extension.

Thanks,

Marion

[Mernjohn]

Ground down a 3/8" extension to a 5/16" square. Can't budge the main oil gallery plug at the rear of the block.

Took off the rear cam cover plate. Passage for oil to the right bank lifters is partially blocked at about the middle. A dipstick will go by the blockage but a 3/8" steel tube will not. Compressed air through the steel tube comes out at all the lifter holes. A 3/8" star drill and light hammer will not break up or move the blockage. Must be metal not a rock which the star drill would have broken. Broke a 1/4" drive extension trying to remove the plug at the front of the oil passage. Heated the plug and broke another 1/4" drive fitting trying to remove it. Removed the pan but could find nothing abnormal in the area of the blockage or any other area of the engine internals. Don't think the partial blockage causes the clattering but can't be sure since I can't remove it.

I would sure like to use this engine since it has all new bearings, rings, cam, lifters and timing gears. If I reassemble it, install it and still have the clattering I'll really be pi##ed.

[surfcraft]

If youve gone the heat route, you've probably done this, but have you tried an impact wrench on the stuck plugs? The reducers will rob some of the impact effect, but it might be worth a try.

JW

[Dan Phariss]

Originally Posted by Mernjohn

Never solved the clattering noise in my 304 which was the subject of several posts and responses months ago.

I eliminated every possible noise maker external to the engine. I have now pulled the engine and have it partially disassembled. Rocker shafts, pushrods and lifters are removed. Intake manifold, valley cover and timing gear cover are removed. Clutch, flywheel, distributor and water pump are removed.

I have plugged the two rocker shaft oil supply holes in the heads and turned the oil pump with an electric drill. I get a little oil out of each hole that supplies oil to the lifters. Don't know how much to expect. The pump puts a good strain on the drill and it won't turn the pump very fast. Crankshaft and camshaft are set so the timing marks match up. Should I expect oil to squirt out of the holes?

Haven't inspected the lifters yet. They were new about five months ago. Camshaft was new a year ago.

My IHC Truck Service manual says the clattering can be caused by air in the oil. How can I determine if there is air in the oil? If the pump suction screen is below the oil level and the O-ring at the suction line connection is new where can air get in the system?

All comments will be appreciated.

Check the rear camshaft bearing. If its loose the lifters will not oil properly.
Have you checked the fit between the rockers and the shaft?
The normal workings of the engine will create air bubbles in the oil. Most automotive oil, motor or gear, have anti-foam agents to keep the oil mostly oil with no foaming
Some oil "improver" additives, Lucas for one from what I have read/seen on the WWW, can counter the anti-foam additves in the oil and cause air bubbles to persist. This aeriated oil is picked up and pumped to the engine and you then have reduced lubrication and maybe lifter rattle.
This is one of several reasons why oil additives are seldom recommended by anyone except those who sell oil additives.

Dan

[Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz]

a small audio file would of helped us out a fair bit, the cam that was fitted, is it a high lift cam? if so the lifters will sit lower in their holders and not be oiled properly due to a reduced base circle on some cams, did you check the welch plugs under the inlet manifold, they also can cause an annoying ticking.

[Mernjohn]

I will try to answer all three of you in one post.

I tried the impact wrench beginning with a light impact and building up until the 1/4' end broke off. No effect on the plug. Cam is an Isky with the following info on the rear end. X94J, 14 112, 256 HYD, Super Cam, 1901. I've been told several times this a suitable cam for this engine. The rear of the cam will not move up-down or right-left in the bearing. The Welch plugs are solid with no leakage. The rockers are boat type. The rocker assemblies are off the heads now. The rockers are quite loose on the shaft. There is nothing there to prevent them from being loose. I have a set of rocker arms with welded rockers. They are not as loose as the boat rockers.

Need some input on the lifters which are Clevite 213-1650 H945. The engine has been run numerous times with these lifters. There is oil in the lifters. I have put the lifters in my small arbor press, right side up, with a short soft bolt, threaded end down, between the arbor and the center of the lifter. When I apply load the plunger moves and a small amount of oil comes out of the hole on the side. With all force I can apply the plunger will continue to move but very little By the time I take the load off and remove the bolt,the plunger is back up to the snap ring. My question, is this normal functioning of the lifter? An old lifter acts the same but moves down easier.

Should have done the audio months ago but can't do it now until everything is reassembled at which time with a lot more than normal luck the clatter will be gone.

Thanks

Marion

[Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz]

a question about the rockers, when you installed them, did you actually check that the rockers were tight and didnt have any freeplay on the cylinder which is in the firing position? a change in cam could mean the push rods are not long enough to apply pressure to the lifters (no pressure = noise). with hydraulic lifters you should have at least 1/2 to 1 full turn of preload created by the rocker retainer bolts before they bottom out the rocker legs to the head surface on the cylinder which has the valves closed to create a preload on the pushrods.

so set up your engine to firing on number 8, then unbolt the rocker shaft, as you retighten the rocker shaft the 2 push rods on number 8 should stop being able to be rotated by fingers about 1/2 to 1 turn before the rocker bolts tighten up.