Zinc additive on sale at AutoZone

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Randall Barringer, Feb 27, 2018.


  1. BinderBookie

    BinderBookie High Wheeler

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    There is still some 10W30 CJ-4/SM oil on the shelves. Look at the API roundel to see the service classification. Find it and stock up for the near term. Long term, you may need to find a good additive or go to a higher end oil with a bit more protection. I have used Rislone's 4405 zinc product after seeing oil analysis of it mixed into an oil I was using. Oil companies no longer list the ZDDP content on the PDS but you can find it in oil analysis (google the PQIA or Bob is the Oil Guy sites) and look for zinc around 1200 PPM. IIRC, you want to cut off before you get to 2000 PPM, as that approaches the upper limit of what's beneficial.
     
  2. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I believe that Swepco makes a 10w-30 oil supposedly very high in ZDDP, their #306. Something on the order of 1600 ppm zinc and 1400 ppm phosphorous---As of a couple of years ago anyway. But Swepco is not carried widely and per qt is as expensive as any synthetic (Swepo oil is conventional in chemistry.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  3. Dana Strong

    Dana Strong Lives in an IH Dealership

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    You were half right; I was asking both questions, even though Randall's post implied the material was new. I wonder if Shell found a boatload of the stuff and didn't know what else to do with it?

    Just gave us something to think and write about, which is what keeps the site going...
    Mount it on a pretty stand in the shop, polish all the brass and aluminum parts, make a plaque to identify it and turn the shop/garage into a Museum? :beer:
     
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  4. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    This my friend is what is known as an "oil thread" going to stock up on cheeto's and refreshments , kick back and let it roll :1eye:
     
  5. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    The pages would fill a book thick enough to equal the one for understanding wimen. Most posts aren't read through if at all; just a lot of scurrying to "write what I know". I just say this, it has been fortunate for me to discover Swepco lubes. It's pretty much old skool in chemistry and for 10 years I've been happy with it. There's a listing/group for lubes over on IH Parts America under Oil Tech in the Tech section. The gentlemen who moderates the group knows his stuff.
     
  6. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    It's winter -- and you started an "oil thread" :dig:
     
  7. BinderBookie

    BinderBookie High Wheeler

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    I had never seen that over there but read a little and he does know a lot. Too bad he's a "one channel oil man." I know Swepco to be good oil but by getting the sales pitch from only one manufacturer's representative (good as it is), you are only getting one part of the story.

    You guys act like an oil thread is the end of the world. It's fun! It can get testy at time because guns, sports and oil are sometimes the "measures" of our manhood.

    IMO people need to look beyond brand names but to do that requires access to data and the knowledge to understand what they are looking at. Without that, all you can do is find a brand that works and use it. There is enough material out there that you can self-educate if you can avoid falling for the ever-present pseudoscientific marketing hype (which is probably the hardest part). Seeing statistical analysis of tens of thousands of oil samples, both of a broad spectrum of engine and of particular families, was the eye opener for me. Regular oil analysis of your own vehicles and equipment in their normal working environment also can be very educational. For most people, the first oil analysis will show that you are throwing away oil that probably isn't 50 percent used up. In some severe situations, you learn the opposite. The aforementioned statistical analysis of oil samples show that if you do OCIs on an arbitrary one-size-fits-all basis, the end result is usually little better with a high end boutique oil than it is with an ordinary brand name off-the-shelf oil. If the engine operates in a severe working environment, the high end oils shine and ditto for extended oil drain intervals. The only way you can find out how far you can go with YOUR rig the way you use it is to do regular oil analysis (just a couple of samples don't tell you much overall). Still, I've had to come off my oil nerd high horse over the years and realize not everyone is interested enough or has the attention span to pursue it at those levels. Moneywise, you may come out cheaper just dumping the underutilized high-end oil rather than sampling and analyzing. Of course at a certain point, once you figure things out, the operating environment is stable and the oil formulation doesn't change much, you can stick with a brand and OCI. Pretty much where I am at with most of my stuff now.

    You don't have to be a scientist to learn the basics, mainly just have patience and an open mind. In my own world, being a 25 year automotive journalist and writing about those things was the best thing that could happen because I had to look at it from more than one angle. Harder to do in the magazine world now than back when because so much tech editorial is now thinly disguised advertising in which a particular product is pushed.
     
  8. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I on that site reading a post or two from the rep a few days ago. Thought about sharing some links here. Couldn't decide it'd be really helpful. It does sound like great oil. I don't know what chain stores might carry Swepco though. (Easy enough to google I guess.) I believe that ORW carries it, or used to, the last time I looked. Can't recall how wide the selection was. If you need to have it shipped, then it gets very pricey. Best then to "commit" to it and buy a case or get a few gallon jugs.
     
  9. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I hear you loud and clear Jim. Oil has always fascinated me for more than 40 years. I got the bug in the Navy when I was tagged on explaining turbine oils for training classes in preparation for shipboard qualifications in fleet readiness exercises. Once in awhile there would be a sailor who ruined his car engine with turbine oil, as in the Navy won't miss a few quarts considering the hundreds of gallons in a marine engine. I even tried getting an understanding of tribology. I didn't get all the math and vector profiles in calculating bearing loads vs. hydrodynamic lube pressures; but I did come to terms with viscosities and how that related to what actually protects bearings. The main thing to keep in mind is Flow for the hydrodynamic wedge and heat removal in mains and rod journals. Too thick can be worse than too thin.

    My wife's cousin worked for Shell in various oil departments and she was a good source of wisdom for what's under the label. The thing I remember from her was her insight on the additives market. Various recipes for various applications and benefits, and like any other thing, there are good and costly and some not so costly. She's not papered or has a degrees, it's all blue collar sources, but basically the better oils have the better recipes and cost accordingly.

    Today's challenges for old iron are reduced additives for emission compliance and the viscosities to meet CAFE standards. There are some "boutique" oils for niche markets which Shell seems to have made a foray into, that started this thread. I go for older companies, or are fleet oriented that have some long standing resources . Three come to mind; Swepco that I have mentioned, Brad Penn, and Schaeffer. I found out that Schaeffer is carried locally, but I have come to like the lineup at Swepco for all my lube needs. Many other oils are out there that can fit the bill. The thing to keep in mind is that while all have additives to meet manufacturer standards, base stocks can determine how much additives are needed; the better the stock to start with, the less is depended on recipes. All in all this comes out in the end as cost. You have rightfully indicated the cost/ benefit ratio. For some of this old iron, ownership probably doesn't go more than 8 or 10 years. It's doubtful I'll truly appreciate or see results of better oil as regular maintenance trumps all the additive claims. Then again I can say that with Swepco I have noticed my idle oil pressures have been a tad higher and more consistent over the change interval compared to when I switched from Delo 400 10 years ago.

    Granted Dick over at IHPA in a one trick pony for Swepco, he does have more than 25 years meeting lube challenges all over the place so I believe his insights into chemistry, stocks, and equipment needs can certainly add to our own field experiences.

    The thing to keep in mind when selecting oil, what is it's intended use. Racing oil for example is great as a mono viscosity or for high loads, but in a motor it won't go the distance for stop and go driving and long storage periods. It's a balancing act between metal protection under load and one for rust and oxidation. ZDDP is polar, and there is a turf balance at the metal surface for it and what detergent or additive for rust prevention. Knowing this you can see how adding or doping with additives from a bottle can upset a compounded oil's chemistry and all bets are off for it's supposed superiority. Now doping for break-in or run-in routines is only temporary, so it won't matter to use an additive as recommended by a component manufacturer.
     
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  10. BinderBookie

    BinderBookie High Wheeler

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    Well said, fellow oil nerd!

    I was at WalMart an hour ago and saw that the T-5 10W30 Rotella is CK-4... no dual SN classification, so it will be full strength 1,200 ppm zinc.

    One thing to bear in mind is that molybdenum is an anti-wear additive that does similar things as ZDDP. ZDDP is activated by heat, so it doesn't really kick in until the oil gets over about 100F (IIRC). The moly kicks right in but fades away somewhat with temperature. I like a dash of moly in the oil alongside the ZDDP to cover both sides of the temp spectrum.
     
  11. TheScoutMaster

    TheScoutMaster High Wheeler

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    I was told by Comp Cam to NOT run a synthetic in a flat tappet motor as synthetic does not allow the lifter to "turn" on the cam lobe (too "slippery") - this, along with the recomendations of the engine builder that built my stroker... Comp Cam also recommended either their brand oil, or Valvoline VR1 as the ZDDP and Phos levels fell within their specs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  12. BinderBookie

    BinderBookie High Wheeler

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    BUT, there's synthetic and then there is SYNTHETIC. "Synthetic" is mostly a marketing term these days. Here we must get into base stock designations, i.e. Group 1, II, III, IV and V. They all start from petroleum base stocks but the difference is how much more refined they are. Essentially, they "filter" the molecules (not really, that's an analogy for the end result) and with each Group, the molecules are more uniformly sized. Group II carried us into the '90s and Group IV was the "true" synthetic like Amsoil and Mobil 1. The Group V were another flavor, such as Redline and Motul. Anyway, along comes Group III, which was a cost effective bridge between Group II and Group IV. Companies like Castrol began calling it "Synthetic" and got challenged by Mobil... and Mobil lost. Castrol proved that "Synthetic" was a marketing and not a scientific or tribological term. From that point a lot of "Synthetic" Group IIIs appeared and that was a good thing (for everyone but Amsoil et al).

    The problem with the Gp IV an V oils is that they don't hold the additives well. They don't need as many, of course, but they need some and to carry them, a bit of Group 1 oil is blended. Gp III oils carry additives very well in comparison. They offer an enhanced viscosity index (the ability to maintain a stable viscosity across a wide range of temps) over Gp IIs, improved resistance to heat and oxidation and the ability to carry additives. Many oils are now Group III blends and even the cheap oils are now the old Group IIA... which was pretty darn good in the context of old school engines. Bottom line, what is sometimes called "conventional" oil, might be Gp III (or a blend of Gp III and IIA). You really need to get into the weeds and look up CAS (Chemical Abstract Service) numbers to tell. Those you to routinely be included in the MSDS for the oil but I guess they thought it gave away too many secrets and you don't see it now.

    So, going back to the spinning the tappet... which is a real deal issue... a Gp IV/V might be too slippery but a Gp III might or might not (depending on it's additive package). There are now some variations in Gp III but I don't know enough to explain them. But Comp Cams basically gave you the right answer. There are some exceptions but it might not be easy to determine them. If it says "synthetic" on the label, best stay away.. at least until the engine is WELL broken in. One way to tell if you are OK is to run the engine with the valve covers off. If you see the pushrods rotating, all is well, if not, cam problems could be in the future. Sometimes you have to bring the engine above idle to see rotation and, yeah, that can make a mess.

    Like Greg said, avoid "Racing" oils because they don't have the additives for day to day operation. There is more to oil than ZDDP!
     
  13. TheScoutMaster

    TheScoutMaster High Wheeler

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    Actually I read that Valvoline VR1 Racing and Valvoline Racing are not the same. The VR1 is for street use ~3000 miles, while the Valvoline Racing needs to be changed every 500 miles.
     
  14. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Geez, I vaguely remember when Mobil 1 was coming on the market, back in the 1970s. A "Synthesized Engine Lubricant" they called it. A 25,000 mile motor oil the ads said. At least by the 80s they were using that number. I can't find anything to back it up but I also recall that Mobil implied was made from something else other than petroleum. Like plants or something.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    One of the things about oil life that's not mentioned much these days,(going back to oil threads), is TBN or reserve alkalinity to combat acids.

    The Valvoline's product sheet shows an 8. For modern fuel injected engines with cleaner burning ignitions I'd say not bad. Just as an example Swepco, like I use, has a TBN of 10.3 For carbureted engines with old skool ignitions, (even with electronic modules) there's more chance for unburnt fuel residuals to decompose to acidic compounds. I'd say for the Scout which now sets more than it used to, I'll need the higher TBN for the drain intervals I use.
     
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  16. bull

    bull Binder Driver

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    With shell oil that shell zinc will be fine...i have used shell 15w 40 with the swepco zinc additive for last 6 years with no issue...avoid all the crazy oils and snake oyl claims..but by all means run what you trust...even the wally world diesel oil they sell for cheap is loaded with zinc.....biggest concern i have is not so much with oil but worthless oil filters bought for cheap...i lose sleep over such things
     
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