The Quest begins...

Discussion in 'Injection Tech' started by Caver Dave, Jan 30, 2009.


  1. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    In that case, stop by! :D

    I'll treat you to a big grilled steak (or veggies if so inclined). Plus, I just "upgraded" the garage TV to 1975 (17" Sony w/ physical push buttons)
     
  2. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If I thought I could make it back for work in the morning.
    But From Norfolk your about 4.5hrs away. :sailor:
     
  3. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Dang! No access to offline air transport? :D

    Don't give up on me though! I'm still trying to troubleshoot this myself, but have found few reliable sources or answers to the same problem.
    The book "How to Tune & Modify Chevy FI" by Ben Watson has some good info. Pages 65-67 have a decent guide to troubleshooting the EST. It seems to say that if ALL the voltage checks are good and there's still no timing advance, either the module or ECM is bad! Unless I ended up with one of the systems requiring it to be in gear? Kinda ruling this out since the bin is from a manual tranny, correct?

    I think the symptom of no start/run with the bypass disconnected (still have spark though) is a strong indicator... just not sure where or what it points to!

    Should I try the spare ECM for S&G's? I hate to throw parts at something without a qualified certainty of failure! Especially a $50 EST that tested good 4 times...
     
  4. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Personally I run the factory junkyard GM ignition modules.

    I think you could bump the timing a little and you would find the engine will run with the bypass disconnected.

    I think you were just too far retarded.
    Would be interesting to know for sure. But if you have spark and fuel it will run.

    It's been a while but did you do the reluctor/rotor checks at TDC with the base timing at 0?

    But at this point, your engine seems to be running and driving but your not seeing timing advance, so the only 2 things involved are the ignition module and the ECM.

    If you have another ECM that is the same then you can stick the 305 chip in it and give it a try.
     
  5. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    My favored supplier also!

    Just to make sure I'm not a complete imbecile, when the timing light fires, the balancer mark is below/before it gets the "ATC-5-TDC-5-RTC"
    (ATC = Advance & RTC = retard?) marks on the timing cover. The engine runs CLOCKWISE when facing it from the front & I've made marks in 5* increments (5*-30*) CLOCKWISE from the balancer mark. Anything fouled up here?

    I did not, but will give a looksee!

    That's where the symptoms are pointing. Will throw the 305 chip in the spare ECM and give her a test!
     
  6. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    http://econtent.autozone.com:24991/...0c152/80/25/22/f1/medium/0900c152802522f1.gif

    Aim the timing light at the timing marks. If the marks that you put on the pulley and the engine are aligned when the light flashes, the timing is correct. Turn OFF the engine and remove the tachometer and the timing light. If the marks are not in alignment, proceed with the following steps.
    Turn OFF the engine.
    Loosen the distributor lockbolt just enough so that the distributor can be turned with a little effort.
    Start the engine. Keep the wires of the timing light clear of the fan.
    With the timing light aimed at the pulley and the marks on the engine, turn the distributor in the direction of rotor rotation to retard the spark, and in the opposite direction of rotor rotation to advance the spark. Align the marks on the pulley and the engine with the flashes of the timing light.
    When the marks are aligned, tighten the distributor lockbolt and recheck the timing with the timing light to make sure that the distributor did not move when you tightened the lockbolt.
    Turn OFF the engine and remove the timing light.
     
  7. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Well, decided to back track a bit to satisfy my conscience.

    - Ran #1 to TDC by hand... rotor was dead on & reluctor was centered on the pickup.

    - Confirmed the firing order/wires... correct

    - Double checked the key on/running voltages at EST... correct

    - Swapped spare ECM + 305 chip in with NO change

    - Set timing (bypass connected) to 30* BTDC. Ran/reved well, but hard starting. Set back to 20* :(

    - Set to 10*, I get about +5* advance at 2kRPM, but bottoms there

    - Pulled tach lead thinking it may be robbing the tach pulse... guess not cause it didn't change anything


    Tried (unsuccessfully) to pull the bypass with it running & a scary thing happens! The engine stopped but the injectors continued to pulse fuel until I jumped inside to turn the key off! Symptom or normal :confused:

    Also, could the EST be breaking down when warm? It was tested stone cold, but OTOH it doesn't advance when cold either, which it should right?

    :SIGH:
     
  8. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    hmm never thought to do that and not sure I would?

    yes they can go bad with heat.
    You may be down to grabbing another ign module from the JY!!
    or maybe 2. They are normally only about $5
     
  9. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    I only tried because it will NOT start with it pulled!

    I'll call around in the AM to see if I can locate a couple...

    Another symptom I forgot to mention... when warm, it has become a bear to start! Requires the throttle to be opened about 60-75% then fires up. This is a change over the earlier twist of the key/zero throttle manipulation from the first start & first week of starting...

    Also, high/cold idle is down to about 800rpm.

    Sorry to throw out so much info, just thinking it may turn on a light with someone! :beer:
     
  10. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Sorry to have been out of touch for so long! :D

    With Bill "vacationing" in VA last week, I decided to post the timing ordeal over on thirdgen. I hoped to add a few eyeballs and give Bill a chance to stand down for a few days! :beer:

    A couple guys jumped on the opportunity and came back with some good info, but nothing new. They requested a few pics and once posted, became concerned over the dizzy's pickup wires running *over* the ignition coil... :hammer:

    Last Thursday evening, I moved the EST away from the coil (jumpered a ground wire) and placed it over in front of the TB. After checking to insure it would still run, I yanked the bypass wire and was finally able to get it to start! :clap: Ended up setting it on 10* (much less and it didn't idle well), but that appears to be a bit too much (starting/idling with electronic advance is rough), so I'll mess with it this week to see if I get it a bit closer. Decided to mount the EST to the oil filler tube, so some modification to it's bracket will be in order...

    *IF* it'll stop raining long enough, I hope to make a few data runs. As we get closer to to the east coast wheeling season, I need to get this puppy buttoned up! Aside from tuning, there's a few suspension mods needed that should tie me up until the middle of next month... hoping for a "shakedown" run to insure it works offroad!
     
  11. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    OK folks... my apologies for the long delay in updating. While I wouldn't exactly chock it up to "economic stimulus", I've been busy! Unfortunately, it hasn't been with TBI... :(

    Anyway, caught a few minutes this evening to test some shielding techniques.

    I pulled the dizzy leads between the DS & EST... only to find they weren't as twisted as I recall! :eek: However, was able to get about 15 twists into the leads. The length was then wrapped with some strips of AL tape (appears to be either HVAC or flashing related). I started with a 50% overlap that gave a double wrap and double wrapped it for 8" from the EST end. I also sanded the mating surface between the coils OEM bracket & the bracket made to hold the EST and treated it to small amount of no-lox (grease) to insure the EST was getting a good ground. The EST was was remounted angling up from the coil, "shield" was grounded, leads were connected, and draped well shy of the coil.

    I fired her up to insure everything was good before disconnecting the bypass. Shut it off, pulled the bypass and she fired back up! A quick check of the timing showed an advance of 10*. I loosened the clamp and was able to bring it back to 2*-3* BTDC. Checked it again with the bypass connected and found it at 15* with spikes up to 20* as rpm increase.

    Does that sound right? Or off?
     
  12. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    sounds about right.
     
  13. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Thanks Bill! I'm hoping to sneak in a few more minutes this evening to check all the connections (pretty sure the knock sensor lead was pulled off in earlier testing) & pull the ECM fuse (to kill off any codes).

    I hoping the stars align and will allow for a nice long data run later this week/weekend. I'm getting antsy that it come down to the wire getting it dialed in before I can make a shakedown or my annual Jeepster JAM trek!

    Anything else I should do beforehand TBI wise?
     
  14. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If the fuel system is not all new, then I recommend checking the filter(s) and carry a spare. The constant return system will shake everything loose.
    I also carry a spare used ignition module.

    But I drove in some pretty remote locations to get GM TBI parts, like Europe.

    I also carried a fuel pump but after about 5yrs I never needed it.
    The original is still strapped to the frame.
     
  15. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    What I meant to ask was anything additional I should do before trying to get a few data runs captured. At this point, getting the fuel (& SA?) tuned appears to be the next/final step of this journey.

    FWIW, the fuel system has been completely re-plumbed. With exception to the GM SS flex lines & TB, it's all brand new. The pump & filter have less than 2 hours total runtime on them. I have a spares for most of the modules & some of the sensors. I'll likely make up a "TBI toolbox" (spares, DVM, FP gauge, etc) to cover mine & my brothers (future install) rigs, since everything (shy of the ECM chips & injectors) will be identical and we rarely wheel both rigs simultaneously. We figured it would cut down on cost to "share" a common box.
     
  16. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    OK, Short term goals..
    Definately get the fuel dialed in.
    You can manually bump the timing up just by rotating the dist.
    When you get to the point you start to see knock in the sensor knock table then you know to stop.
    Then check the base timing and see how many degrees you are off of 0 (assuming you are using the ASDU).

    Are you using the ASDU for your base bin?

    If so then you should also look thru the basic chip setting FAQ to reduce the retard tables, turn off the EGR...etc.
     
  17. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Roger that! It's so bad the entire house (garage is underneath) smells "rich"!

    No, I think you said it's ARPC (305 truck manual). Aaron said he bumped the EGR temp on up, so it wouldn't factor in, but he may have forgot...

    Is reducing the retard tables a given for all mills other than GM or something you've found on the IHs?
     
  18. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    I was able to take it out last night for 15 minutes with no TBI related issues, but the 9000s dialed-up almost beat me to death. At some point, the VSS threw a flag (Err24), followed at some point by the ESC (Err43) and the SES came on... at least that's working! Decided to take care of a few minor issues and pulled the fuse to clear the codes in prep for today's run.

    Despite a long chore list and son's impending first prom :wacko: , I was able to make a 30 minute logging run. Figuring the ESC43 would resurface, I drove around normally with a few WOT take offs on even ground (stop signs/lights). VSS flag popped about 10-15 minutes in and just needs to be pulled in the bin :eek:.
    As I suspected, the ESC43 code stayed away until pulling a 40* hill on the way back to the house (intentionally went back that way near the end, since I believe Bill said after the 43, the ECM would go into limp on the timing?) where I was running 50-55mph and went WOT near the base (thrown around time 1571sec/26min).

    Not sure how that causes the 43, but it seems to throw ONLY WHEN there's a steep grade at WOT :cornfused: Outside of that, everything appears to be fine... other than chronic richness, correct?

    Anyways, the data...
     

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  19. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The fuel is very rich and I don't see any knock.

    I noticed the error when it hit async mode. Hopefully with that bin, when you get the fuel tables set it will eliminate that. It's normally when the PW is too big.

    I reduce the retard tables during tuning so it doesn't interfere with how the timing is working.

    I add a little timing each burn and keep the retard to about 3-4 degrees just to protect the motor.

    If the ECM throws 9* of retard it really affects the motor.
     
  20. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Yeah, it's very noticeable. Thinking it'd be wise to change the plugs afterwards since it's been pretty rich for the past month.

    Async mode?
    PW, as in pulse width?
    Too big, like it's getting too long of shot to the injectors?

    I bumped it up to 5*-6* BTDC yesterday and it felt a little stronger. Was still able to bring the 43 back on the hill at WOT. Still NO knock counts from starting , where it was getting about 10 and a few randomly. Does that point to sufficiently retarded?
     

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