The Quest begins...

Discussion in 'Injection Tech' started by Caver Dave, Jan 30, 2009.


  1. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Got home WAY too late last evening for any "wrenching", but the whistle blows 1.5 hrs EST!

    I was going back over the "required reading" for chip mods and saw the BPW discussed regarding displacement/injector "size". I ran the numbers for my 304 & 350 injectors thru the spreadsheet and came up with 135.4.

    Where is this parameter set within the bin... "BPW Const for EGR off"?
     
  2. rick W.

    rick W. Binder Driver

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    If you're using Tuner Pro and $42 it's just BPW constant.
     
  3. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The tuner cat setting is BPW constant.

    The injector BPW calc is off. It might be in the spreadsheet.
    The setting for a stock 350 is 135.
    The setting for a stock 305 is 148.
    The v6 is 158

    A 305 running 350 injectors would be about 120.
     
  4. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    OK, 305 bin'd chip is in. It's still rich, but magnitudes better (isn't burning my eyes! :) ) than the ASDU bin.

    I wanted to double-check the timing... please recall it has NOT been moved since set with the carb at 5*BTDC and ran into an issue. It will not start with the bypass disconnected. I pulled it while running and it shuts off each time. Any ideas why it won't start/run with the bypass disconnected?

    If it makes a difference, as best I can tell, the timing is running approx. 20*-25* BTDC when idling (engine warm) and the bypass connected.
     
  5. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You need to finish the rest of the troubleshooting we already discussed.

    You already know you have a timing issue from the ESC fault.
     
  6. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    My apologies Bill :oops:

    -Fuel Pressure steady 13#

    -B7 ESC Signal 9.27 VDC (ESC to ground)
    B7 rang end to end @ 0.02 ohms

    Tis a bit late to "serenade" the neighbors with the sound of power. Will test the knock sensor in the AM...
     
  7. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Alrighty then!
    - Made some rough marks on the balancer (extended to crank pulley for better visiblity) and checked warm idle timing. She's right at 17*-18*BTDC at idle.
    - Tested knock sensor with hammer (not logged) but did see knock counts via WinALDL.
    - Reset the TPS voltage back to .53 in WinALDL config to match what meter was telling me. (Done while warming about line 212 of logs)

    Took her out for a fillup and drive (approx. 10 miles). I warmed her up in the driveway and took off... wouldn't run over 2k RPM without massive stumbling & occasional popping though TB. Limped her up to the gas station, figuring this was the end of today's fun. After the fillup, she fired back up and seemed to run MUCH better (still weak on accel), but would run over 2k RPM!

    Drive a few miles from there to a local shop to show a couple Jeep brothers the handy work and left it idling for a couple minutes. They weren't around, so decide to stop flirting with (potential) disaster and headed home. Appears everything was fine until I matted it (WOT) going up a big hill towards my development... was pretty weak (no change in RPM or speed) and appears the ESC flag was thrown (line 1916) :(

    It never cut off, despite my unfamiliarity/anxiety in the new MUCH quieter exhaust. Found myself watching the tach on every decel/stop to make sure it was still running! Still appears to be pretty rich through the majority of the ranges.

    Help me understand the reason(s) for the ESC flag!
    - Is it component failure (I have several that could be swapped in)?
    - Maybe because base timing is set too low and the system can't advance it far enough enough... poof? I've been told by several jeepers the AMC engine "like" more base (10*) than the Chevys/IH mills (0*)...
    - Something else like a wiring issue?

    My apologies if there's a troubleshooting step/requested info I've missed... purely unintentional! :sweatdrop:
     
  8. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    :censored: forgot to attach the logs!
     

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  9. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You will definately need more timing then the stock chevy.
    all older engines use more. The TBI chevy used a different combustion chamber and less timing.

    I program my own chips so I create my own timing tables.
    If you just want to run that chip then bump the timing just like you did with your carb set up.

    If you have another ESC then swap it out.
    It took a lot longer for it to set a fault this time.

    You may want to back the min idle screw out another 1/2 turn and reset the TPS.

    What is the timing at idle?
    Rev it to 2000 and check it again.
     
  10. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Bumped to 20* BTDC (with bypass). This SHOULD equate to 10* Base + 9.84* Bias (warm or cold are the same). Correct?

    Will do ASAP! (see next bullet!)


    700rpm 20* BTDC
    2000rpm 20* BTDC

    Correct me if I'm way off here, BUT at 2kRPM, I *should* be getting about 30*BTDC (10* base + 9.84 Bias + 5.05*/1kRPM)?

    IOW, no change at all! Save for a little "wiggling" of the marks until it settles in. Maybe the ESC is bad! I'll be back in 10-15mins to report any differences...
     
  11. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    hmmm.

    First your confusing bias with timing.
    Bias is simply a setting to allow GM to use negative timing in the timing table.
    iN THE CONSTANTS, ALL THE SETTING THERE ARE WHAT THE COMPUTER ASSUMES YOU HAVE SET. lIKE BASE TIMING.
    mOST REQUIRE 0 (dang caps button). But in reallity you can set the distr anywhere you want.
    But the computer assumes it at 0.
    It will adjust the timing IAW the timing table.
    If it has 20 at 600 rpm at 40 map then that's what you should see. But if you set the dist to 10 then you should see 30 at idle.
    So you need to know what the timing table is not the bias.


    If your stuck at 20 then I would say you have an EST problem more then an ESC problem. But with the fault code I would swap it out.
    Autozone can test your EST/ignition module.
     
  12. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Roger that! So if within the 305bin:
    - Initial SA is set to 0* AND base set to 0*
    - Main SA table says 29.88* at 600rpm/30kpa

    Should I be seeing near 30* at warmed & unloaded idle?

    Roger that also! Any potential correlation between a bad EST and the "no run" condition when unplugging the bypass? Swapped the ESC out, but didn't see any difference in timing, idle to 2krpm.

    FWIW, I was didn't log (despite weatherpersons call for sun, it looked like rain, & didn't want to get my laptop drowned), but did take it down the road for a spin. Just the small increase in initial timing (17*-18* to 20*) made a HUGE difference in acceleration! My wife's agreed to make a short datalogging run :eek: with me later (pending sunshine), so will let you know the results of EST & data.

    Thanks again Bill! :beer:
     
  13. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Still no data, BUT...

    both ESTs tested good (x2 each) at O'Reillys (OTC tester). Hauled them 2 doors down to AutoZoo (Wells tester) and the EST I was running tested good (x2), the spare bad (1st 3 of 6 tests failed x2). OK, that means the EST I've been running should be good...

    Came back home for a little troubleshooting. After the issue I had with grounding the tach lead on the coil, decided to insure I had 12V on the EST via the UN-TOUCHED factory pigtail. Between the red (+) wire to bolt holding the EST to heatsink & bracket (-) shows 12V.

    Not sure where to go from here... :cornfused:
     
  14. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Do you have the 4.75 volts at pin B of the ignition module.
    Should come from D5.
    Also make sure your 1V on D4 and pin D of the module while it's running.


    Are you sure the chip has a functioning timing table.
    It's not a modified howell chip or anything.

    If you still have a factory chip you could try that also.
     
  15. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Didn't have either of these voltages prior to now! (neither are listed in the Key On voltage checks)
    4.75V on pin B/D5 is with it running, Correct?
    Will check tomorrow PM and let you know!


    Not sure which BBC it is (almost 100% sure it isn't an aftermarket bin), just that it's a 305 bin Aaron set the EGR On temp to something outragous to disable it. Will send it via email ASAP.

    I gave it up as tuning foder, but do have the performance chip that I (mistakenly) thought was an ASDU from a spare ECM...
     
  16. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Voltage is engine running IIRC on sheet 1.

    Your bin is an ARPC 1991 truck 305 manual.
    I found no difference in stock vs the one you sent me when I did a binary compare.
     
  17. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    You are correct... :eek:
    I'll check them first thing this evening! :beer:

    Assuming the EGR hasn't been disabled, could that be causing an issue with timing/SA?
     
  18. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    nope EGR won't cause the timing issue.
     
  19. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    D4 White EST Pin D = 1.2VDC
    D5 Tan/Blk EST Pin B = 4.5VDC

    What's next brother? :confused:
     
  20. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Let me check the timing table first.

    I had to fly out for a few days so I'm on the east coast right now.
     

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