The Quest begins...

Discussion in 'Injection Tech' started by Caver Dave, Jan 30, 2009.


  1. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Thanks again Bill! :beer:


    Thank you sir! I'm shooting for a happy medium between NOT getting completely burned out trying to accomplish it too quickly and NOT being left out once the springtime rides begin!


    I'll definitely print the PDF (also have access to a nice lamination machine) for the "onboard" copy! Hoping it'll stay unused, along with a copy of the Governors letter to DMV/LE personnel stating after 35 years (from date of manufacture) the rig no longer needs ANY type of inspection to be licensed! :D

    I was wondering about doing that, but wasn't sure if that would cause any issues? That could save me a week of evenings & burnt fingers over doing the cut/splice! :beer:
     
  2. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Well, made a little headway this evening (despite the honey-do list)!

    Got the FP cover installed, but got sidetracked from draining a little coolant to install the CTS... :oops:

    Decided where to "breach" the firewall. Since it has a narrower firewall (than a Scout) and I pooched myself with battery placement last year (OEM was out on the PS fender! :hammer:), I had to go further inboard than I liked. This will let me split the "engine" circuits straight down to the block and send the "others" (power, relays, etc)) around to the inner fender.

    Hole cut at 2.125", smoothed with die grinder to knock down the sharp stuff
    [​IMG]

    Grommet from last weeks '89 Sub donor measures 2.1875" (Split on 1 side to fit over bundle) and fit nicely! May have to trim the ID a bit depending on bundle thickness at that point.
    [​IMG]

    Also cut an elongated slot in the ABS glovebox where the ECM will sit. Started by sticking the main plugs thru the firewall, into the glovebox and connecting to ECM.
    [​IMG]

    Since the grommet would restrict feeding the excess back to the inside, I lined the hole with some edge molding from something (hope it wasn't important, cause it's 5" shorter now). Started by "combing"/separating the circuits into location specific groups and connected everything already mounted (coil, EST, injectors, & TPS)... approximating some unmounted items (CTS & IAC since I still need to splice the plug).
    [​IMG]

    I need some assistance on mounting the ESC & MAP sensors. They will both mount on the factory bracket (easily modified), but just not sure WHERE to put them!

    I recall reading some info (not sure of source) regarding MAP location... IIRC, too far away from TB creates/causes an issue? :confused:

    *Might* be able get them (crammed) under the air cleaner on the PS aft of the coil & EST. The DS is already tight (from brake booster & TB linkage) and the firewall is already clogged.


    Thoughts?
     
  3. R290

    R290 High Wheeler

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    That firewall has space from the last pic? I used the stock hose and just mounted the Map sensor where it would fit on the fire wall. My ESC is in the glove box with the ECM. I would leave some extra wire in the glove box so you can service the ECM. Maybe face the ECM the other way with some wire looped under it? Just forget putting anything but the ECM in there for now. I even moved all my relays into the glove box too. Oh fyi I don't have a glove box liner, so there a bit more room. Maybe the ESC and relays could go behind your glove box liner. I found that by moving that stuff out of the engine area it made the install look a lot cleaner. here a pic. I have the air cleaner off which hides a lot.
     

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  4. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Map should be at or above the level of the vacuum port due to vapor accumulating in the hose and running downhill to the sensor.
     
  5. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    I'll explore those options tonight. The more I think about it, there may be room just aft of the coil/EST. IIRC, the factory mounting plate for ESC/MAP attached to the intake bolts(?) and was bent to fit between the air cleaner & valve covers. If I can get them down low enough to not completely kill air circulation and not be too crowded... That keeps that section of harness fairly "linear" and the MAP run fairly short.


    That makes complete sense! Is there another condition possibly caused by too long of vac line to the MAP? Still can't recall where (maybe 3rdgen?)/what (throttle lag?) the specifics were.

    My brother is going to be in (my) town this weekend, so we might make some serious headway towards the first firing!
     
  6. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    We talked about the vacuum line length on justih before but nothing specific. Only theory. Consensus is shorter is better.
     
  7. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    My brother arrived this AM. We worked on getting everything ready (while watching the ACC tournament) for a test fire this evening. There's still a few small things left to do before we check for fire, but...

    We have SES!

    Needs some fuel in the tank, but also tested FP operations by putting a test light on the FP circuit (FP remains disconnected) and it lights for 2 seconds after key on! I have the setup instructions printed and will do those before a test fire.

    Thanks! :beer:
     
  8. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    No joy in Mudville! :helpsmilie:

    During initial cranking everything acted right, have fuel pulse (can see it spray), but NO SPARK.

    While checking key on voltages (see, knew you'd ask), the coil went "poof" and had a blow out. Thinking that may have been the culprit, swapped the coil in with no change (still have fuel, NO SPARK).

    Continued with key on voltage check... If it's OK, I'll post the deviant/missing voltages, rather than recite them all?

    B7 ESC 9V - have nothing

    C11 MAP signal 4.9 - have nothing

    C13 TPS ref .6 - have .02

    All other key on voltages are dead on... something tells me B7 is the cause?

    Swapped the ASDU ECM with no change in above voltages.

    :beer:
     
  9. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well a little basics...
    You have spark...at least you have an input from the distr pick up and it is triggering the ignition module.
    The IM sends a distr ref pulse to the ECM telling it there is spark so it will start firing the injectors.

    So...you have ignition.
    What you need to check is the IM wiring and the coil wiring.

    You can even unplug the 4 wire connector on the IM and you would still have spark.
    So the B7 will have nothing to do with spark...yet. That's after it's running.

    But the reason there is no voltage there may be a problem.
     
  10. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Bill, I do NOT have SPARK.

    I do have fuel pulse/spray from the injectors (seeing it more obvious than I anticipated).
     
  11. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Your misunderstanding me.
    I understand you may not have spark at the plug.
    But you do have spark as far as the ECM is concerned.

    So the problem is from the ignition module to the coil or the coil to the plugs.
     
  12. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Alrighty Bill... think I understand what you said now. :D

    You're saying the EST *IS* getting a signal from the dizzy and *IS* telling the ECM to fire the injectors. Correct?

    I have 12V measured at the coil & EST (jumpered from the coil) during key on. What else is there to check? :cornfused:

    Not sure it matters, but I have spray from drivers side inj, none from pass. side.
     
  13. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Are you using the factory wiring and GM coil?

    Did you track down your other voltage problems yet?

    They may be related or may not.

    For the injector.
    If you have 12V at both on the red and white wires, then the ECM provides the ground on the grn and blue wires.
    So take a test light and hook the clip to 12V and then probe the grn/blue wire to see if it pulses when you crank.
    Normally the signal will be fine and it's just a sticky inj. You can tap on it with the handle of a screwdriver while cranking to unstick it....maybe.
     
  14. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Yes. The connectors are all GM factory, including the jumper from coil to EST.

    No. I rang the wires for B7 & C11 and they're fine. Should I have ohm'd them out also? Just NOT getting voltage from either ECM.

    Swapped the ESC & EST with absolutely no change. Confirmed 12V not only on key on, but on start/crank. Also, I did NOT have C9 connected... but no change after jumpering it to solenoid "S".

    Cool... I have another set of 5.7L injectors if a little :hammer: doesn't get it going.
     
  15. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Do you have the 5V on C14?
    If so then do you have the 5V going to the map and TPS?

    Did you check the grounds from both?
     
  16. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Yes

    Yes.

    Battery negative/ground to C13 = .016V
    TPS - D2 to C13 = 5V
    MAP - A11 to C14 = 5V

    A11 to battery negative = 12V
    D2 to battery negative = 12V

    This indicates the grounds, via ECM are good, correct?
     
  17. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    OK, after a bit of research, I found a post from "Docvette" on the hotroders.com forum in response to troubleshooting fuel with no spark...

    I assumed the white wire (opposite the 12V feeding the coil) was "the ground"... WRONG! :hammer: According to him, this is tach signal ONLY. I clipped the white wire and HAVE SPARK! That means that the coil is grounded via the mounting base, correct? And by grounding the white wire (tach signal), I was shorting the coil = no :censored: spark

    Unfortunately, it's 0330 here and the neighbors (not to mention my wife) would string me up if I was to attempt firing her up now. :nono:

    I'm ready for some rack time myself, but what would you bet the missing voltages (B&, C11, & C13) check fine when the sun comes up? :D

    See you all in the AM with an update!

    Bill, THANK YOU for hanging with me as long as you did! :beer:
     
  18. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    why would you modify/deviate from the factory diagrams? :no::cornfused::oops:
    The tach lead is shown on the factory diagrams and on the 1 page PDF diagram. No wires are shown to ground.

    only blk/wht stripe go straight to ground.

    That's why I asked if you were running a factory harness, to eliminate the need to go wire by wire.

    But at least it proved me correct and the problem was on the output of the ignition module and coil.

    No, this would indicate no ground at all.
    If you measured from A11 to battery POS +, then yes they would be good.
    But a better check is an ohm meter from A11/D2 to the engine. 0 ohms
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  19. Caver Dave

    Caver Dave Farmall Cub

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    Went out this AM, looked everything over again, twisted the key and she fired right up!! Idled a bit high, but adjusted the stop in a bit to about 800rpm cold and it drops 600rpm once it hits 180*.

    Appears to be a bit rich (as expected). Hopefully, it'll dry out/warm up this week and I can take it for a few datalogging spins to see what needs tweaking.


    Yeap, stupid mistake on my part! :eek:
    Thanks for staying with me though. It was greatly appreciated!
    It did give me valuable insight into troubleshooting. The correlation between fuel & spark is now permanently ingrained! Hopefully, it's all downhill from here...

    I'll check this out better later this week. A bit cooked from hours in the garage. Wouldn't "missing"/out of range signals from the MAP/TPS make it throw a code? SES comes on at key on and goes out after starting :confused:

    Thanks again! :beer:
     
  20. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Sounds like it's working right.
    The readings you got may have more to do with the time then the actual readings. :sailor:
     

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