The EVOLUTION Project

Discussion in 'D and C Extreme' started by Damian Grihalva, Dec 30, 2006.


  1. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    You know Ricky, its only about a 5 hour drive up here. Once this one is done, I'll be happy to set up that Traveler! I loved my Traveler turned Terra. Sitting on 37s it was awesome.

    That being said, I hope I never meet your wife in a dark alley late at night ~ I just may not come back out alive! :D :D :D
     
  2. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Hey man, if I can no more than put a smile on your face and keep you entertained, I'm doing my job.
     
  3. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    UPDATE: Coil-over shocks shipped last week, should be here soon. Sorry for not updating this.
     
  4. Ricky77

    Ricky77 High Wheeler

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    Oh man I can't believe I'm asking this.

    D I'm driving out tomorrow to look at another traveler, the one in Carlsbad had way too much rust!! The wife has decided that I can get another IH just as long as it isn't a rust bucket like the last 2 were. I talked to a guy in Jemez Springs (about an hour from me) and he's got one that has been in NM all of it's life and other than some faded orange paint there isn't any rust to speak of, so he says, and I'm going to look at it.

    Here is the current delima. I can't afford to buy the scout and have you coil it and set it on 37"+s because I'll want to go with dana 60's or something about that big for those tires. I don't like to put anything larger than 35's on the stock 44's since I don't like breaking stuff. So with that in mind can you set up a coil over for 35" tires and still give me several inches of travel? I know it seems stupid to coil something just for 35's when I could do an SOA with 2" lift springs in the driveway and clear the same tires but that damn coil over looks way too cool not to try.

    Thoughts?
     
  5. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    I totally understand what you're saying. Going with big tires can definately snow ball into bigger and more expensive things. This build is a perfect example ~ with the 37s we're going with full-size truck axles (HP44 and 9") which are both stronger and wider to handle the extra height/tire without being tipsy on the road. While setting up the front end this weekend, the decission to go with a Ram-assist steering system (like Snoopy's) to help turn the tires easier was made. So, yeah, definately a snowball effect.

    The coils can be built to handle any tire size. I won't go with any thing smaller than 33s ~ totally different design and function for smaller (under 33) tires. Truth be told, the 4-link system was designed for 33" tires to begin with ~ it just so happens that we've never used it for that size.

    So to answer your question, yes. A 35" tire would work perfectly with this system. As far as travel is concerned, the smallest amount of wheel travel in any of my linked system was P3 w/ 44-48" of articulation ~ and we set it up for street use (higher spring rates). What could you expect in the wheel travel department? I'd say at least 40" while keeping it built for street.

    As far as being stupid to coil something for 35s, I'll disagree. Look at every single truck and SUV on the market today. I can't think of a single one built without coils. Jeep Wrangler is now coiled front and back with 31s. Even the new SuperDuty's and Dodge Ram HD's are coil'd up front. Toyota's TRD Taco's and FJ's are coil-overs from the factory with 31s, and ~ even though I think the H2 and H3's are a joke ~ they are coils up front. The most similar (size and weight wise) SUV I see is the LandRover Discovery and Defenders. Those have been coiled front and back for decades and are among the worlds most rugged and capable SUVs ever built ~ and they are considered a luxury. I mean, they come with cages tied to the frame, the rear axles are full floaters! and if you were to park one on a scale I'd bet its within a couple hundred pounds of a Scout ~ most likely heavier.

    Simply put, coils are more comfortable on the road than conventional leafs and dont normally sag. They flex better, cost less and are infinately more tuneable (just check out the spring rates available on the new JKs ~ that's the new Wrangler).

    One reason this thread is the "Evolution" build is that we are some of the last guys to seriously integrate coils and links into our suspensions. My goal is to show the capability of coils ~ not that we don't have enough examples already, but we don't seem to grasp that they WORK with rigs as big and heavy as ours are. With any luck, we'll see some shops besides myself looking seriously at these suspensions, and just as we evolved from 4" lifts to SOAs, we can evolve from SOAs to Coils.

    And, by the way, I completely agree. The link and coil systems are just to dang sexy and cool not to do it. [fade to 'memory lane'] When I started out in bumpers, and I always thought how cool it was to see my bumpers on scouts in shows. One of my first customers won several best-in-shows with my bumpers attached. I enjoy seeing my stuff in mags and in signature lines of various boards ~ and I love it when I see people use my products as specific selling points when selling their rigs. Most recently a customer won 'best engineered' award at the Nats in Ohio, my suspension products, bumpers and a few other things were on that rig. I can't and won't rob that victory as my own since he did many big/little things that earned him that title ~ but I'm happy to have been apart of it. [fade out of 'memory lane'] I simply can't wait for these conversions to take a hold on the IH community. The day's of my eye catching bumpers may have passed for some, but now its time again to step it up. I'm telling you that people will see these conversions at shows, on the street and out on the trails and something's going to click. The 'Bling' factor is definately cool ~ but its goes farther than that ~ Wifes will start driving in our scouts because they are more comfortable than they once were. Jeep guys will stop gawking at us and start checking our stuff out and even admit that its one of the coolest things they've ever seen. That's my vision, if you will, that's the goal.

    ...It'll just be too dang cool.

    I'll stop there, I probably sound like some religious nut talking about the rapture when I get on these kicks. Its just something I know will happen ~ something that should have happened a long time ago. Ricky, if you want to make it happen, I'm up for it. I've given Matt (owner of EVO) a special deal to allow me the priveledge of building his scout with this new suspension, and I'm willing to make a similar deal with you. That being said, nothing is for free, it isn't the cheapest suspension job out there. But when you want the best of the best, its all that and more. I'm sure you'll need to talk it over with the wife, but the offer stands if you're interested.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2007
  6. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    UPDATE: Coil-overs got last Friday ~ everything but the dual-rate kits to put the coils on the coil-overs. :shaking: :rolleyes:

    So Saturday was spent installing the front axle. Links are mounted, truss is massaged and mounted, upper link is mounted. I'm waiting on some brackets for the trackbar. The steering box is getting rebuilt w/ ram ports added.

    Pictures coming soon.
     
  7. Redbeard

    Redbeard Farmall Cub

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    kind of a random question-

    I'm not sure if I got my facts here right so please correct me if i'm off my rocker. You're trying to make the scout more "modern" so I deff understand the coils.

    I guess my question is, is it going to be a big ol lifted truck? The posts I've been reading make it sound like you're just trying to modernize, so is it going to be fairly stock heigth? In your kit is the height of the truck going to be dependent on the coil-over choice?

    Hope that jumble of thought made sense. Couldn't figure out how to word it correctly...
     
  8. Elijah G

    Elijah G Farmall Cub

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    Total novice here so dont laught to loud. Just befor the coil spring ford SD come out i saw leaf to coil sring conversions using the leaf spring mounts for the link mounts. Seem like a simple way to go to coils but wheel travel seemed to suffer. Had you had any thought into a design like that. BTW reading your stuff got me to do the soa on my terra. Thanks i think! :D
     
  9. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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  10. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    No I wouldn't use the leaf mounts for link mounts. Yes its easy, but those break off way to much/easily to put the load on them souly.

    The thing is that I've been told that the stock front leaf mounts were made to break in event of a bit crash. The theory was that its better for the axle to drop down and under the rig.

    The net effect was that no one really hit them that hard and now 30+ years later the welds are fatiqued and break when wheeled hard. So its all new mounts and frame sleeves. However, I have a design that doesn't require the removal and replacement of the stock crossmember, nor is it going to require so much grinding/welding on the inside of the frame.

    This build is a proto-type. A test the waters, generate interest, and see what we run into kinda thing. The next conversion will have some slight revisions that will allow a more clean and easy install. Which means less work.
     
  11. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Has it been long enough since the last progress pictures? I have to tell you its been WAY to long for me. I've been at a stand still on this project waiting for the SAW coil-overs. I finally got word that the remaining parts came in, and we started back up.

    Matt came over and we started on the front axle. This WAS out of a 76 Ford (which is a driver-side drop) so we had it converted to a passenger drop w/ standard D44 end-forgings. Since we have a full-width 9inch in back, we kept the stock Ford width on the front axle too. This yields a matched pair (width wise) of axles.

    Once placed under the rig, we trussed it, and tack welded the link mounts in place.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Oh, while I'm at it, here is a good shot of the difference between a High Pinion D44. As you can see, the axle's pinion and yoke are well above centerline.
    [​IMG]

    The key reason for going with a High Pinion axle (also called reverse cut) is to get this extra clearance, but that's only the start of the advantages. The key advantage is the stronger R&P as it puts power to the tires on the strong side of the ring gear. The height really helps as well, keeping things up and out of the way. Pinion angle is at a mere 6 degrees to run a standard CV shaft ~ a standard front D44 would be running at 19 degrees. :eek: Quite a difference.

    As seen in the first picture posted, the pinion is actually ABOVE the lower links ~ tons of protection there. :cool:

    The axle was then removed and welded up outside of the rig (easier :p ) ~ I seem welded the truss and link brackets and then custom made 'truss extentions' out of 2x6 box tube (3/16" wall). The coil-over mounts will be next.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here's an 'out of the rig' shot of the pinion. You can get a better idea of how high the pinion on HPD44s are.
    [​IMG]

    Track Bar mount.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Axle's back under the rig.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Started stripping the frame and inner fenders for the coil-over mounts.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Tomorrow I get to build the tube work (aka inner fender) on the driver side, build the coil-over upper shock hoops with 1.75" DOM and start mounting the shocks. More updates soon, stay tuned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007
  13. Ricky77

    Ricky77 High Wheeler

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    Looks good D!

    Maybe I just don't understand the coil over concept but why do you need that much trussing and bracing? Is that axle going to take that much abuse?

    Ricky
     
  14. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    The truss over the housing was for the upper link mount. The extentions to the end-forgings (those outer C's) was just for strength and fun. I've had that idea in my head for a tuff-truck or arena racing (like Mandera does) axle for a while. Does it need it, no. But at least now he won't have to worry if he's loaded up and hits small bumps/jumps.

    Coil-overs can be mounted with small tabs, in fact, these ones will be mounted with small tabs as well, the trussing is just for beef. And you know IH ~ you can never have too much beef!

    Speaking of which, when are you going to bring your scout up here for a similar suspension?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2007
  15. Ricky77

    Ricky77 High Wheeler

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    As soon as I can find a decent rig. Tomorrow is my 5 year anniversary and the scout fund went into a new flagstone patio and letia overhang (that I had to build and install) as well as a pair of 6x35 flower gardens, not to mention the 4 tons of sand and 2 1/2 tons of gravel I had to haul in and level. I don't understand why that woman thinks that something like a marriage is more important than an International. *laugh* Fear not brother as soon as I can get a good rig to start with you'll have a bigbody to coil up!
     
  16. Scott Sinner

    Scott Sinner High Wheeler

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    I'm confused :confused:

    The front is a Ford low pinion D-44 that you swapped the tubes and turn over to make a high pinion???

    Is that all you do, no slinger issues?
     
  17. Ricky77

    Ricky77 High Wheeler

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    It's a high pinion Ford. The tubes were switched to make it a passenger side drop. HTH. :)
     
  18. Scott Sinner

    Scott Sinner High Wheeler

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    Here's a little tip, reread parts of the thread and Poof there's the answer!

    It makes more sense now.
     
  19. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Wow man, I need to do that to my back yard. Its about 1/billionth acre of mud :eek:! I just don't understand why women like pretty back yards over pretty scouts either. All in good time!
     
  20. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Bingo! We basically built a HP44. Funny thing is, without any tube or link mounts, the stock (non messed with) HP44 upside down looked like a low pinion passenger drop. I say that because I had the HP44 and a LP44 in my truck bed at the same time ~ without the difference in spring mounts I took a double-take a couple times thinking "where's my HP44!?!?!"

    D
     

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