The EVOLUTION Project

Discussion in 'D and C Extreme' started by Damian Grihalva, Dec 30, 2006.


  1. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Even after the wifey calls, Matt and I couldn't help but look at the scout in excited anticipation. We simply can't help but think what this scout is going to look like after we're done.

    Matt said he wanted something that will take him farther up the mountain before hiking the rest of the way ~ I think we're going to build something that will, in many cases, make hiking to the top an option ~ I mean, why not just drive? :cool: :D ;) :cool: :p
     
  2. Shiner-Bock-Beer

    Shiner-Bock-Beer Farmall Cub

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    This Matt guy sounds crazy. I have no idea what a "hike" is. Would you ask him to explain why he would get out of a perfectly good Scout to do this "hike?"

    I wish I lived closer to you. I would spend my work days sitting in your shop. Did the DUI's come in this week?
     
  3. Rough74

    Rough74 Farmall Cub

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    Try as I might, I can't seem to get enough articulation to get up this line...
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Matt likes mountain climbing. Its similar to my driving up and off waterfalls ~ but without the vehicle and as challenging for the human body as extreme wheeling is for my scouts. So yes, he's crazy. But since we all own scouts, isn't that like calling the kettle black?

    ;)

    The DUI's were shipped directly to customers and started to leave mid last week.
     
  5. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Nice. I think you got the idea.
     
  6. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Matt came over tonight and we spent some time lifting it 24" off the ground so we can start ripping everything off it.
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    It doesn't look like it, but the tires are like 12" off the ground.

    I took out a drink w/ ice in it. By the time we called it a night, the drink had more ice in it than when it started. BBBRRRRR! :eek:

    I also got to work on the front floor (driver side) and made it look like the passenger side.
    [​IMG]

    Then I dropped (literally) the old axles.
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    And started removing the original suspension mounts in prep for the frame sleeves and link mounts
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    Scout looks a bit torn apart after today
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2007
  7. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Today I'm tearing into the scout and cutting it apart. I've got a few things for sale that may be of interest to someone.
    1. Four 33x12.50x15 BFG AllTerains (10 miles on them ~ literally, the guy drove home from Discount Tire that's it) $500 for all 4, will not seperate
    2. 4" Lift kit, decent shape, w/ shocks: SOLD
    3. Heavy Duty lift shackles, rear two GONE/SOLD

    Prices plus shipping. Parts are used. See pictures above. No warrentees or guarentees whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2007
  8. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Well I drove up to Denver and met they guys from TNT half way between their Cheyenne shop and my Colorado springs shop. They were able to give me a sweet deal on some Summit Machine Large Flex Joints.
    [​IMG]
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    Half of these are for this build the other half are for the YJ project I have going on.

    EDIT: Got a couple packages today
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    All the link mounts and misc crap that I'm going to be toying around with.
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    Frame sleaves bent up and ready.
    [​IMG]

    Now I just need to finish stripping the frame and stuff under the scout and start mocking things up!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  9. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Well, time for more updates. Last night Matt came by and we spent a few hours tearing apart the HPD44 and the stock Scout II front D44. The HP44 is out of a 76ish F150 and is a drive-drop w/ king-pin style knuckles and drum brakes. Well we had to strip everything off it ~ what a pain ~ and get it ready for some customizing.
    [​IMG]

    Once it was stripped, we took the stock D44 and stripped it down to the housing as well. Took much less time ~ Thank goodness!
    [​IMG]

    Today started with a huge sigh. Not one of releif, but one that starts a big and dirty job. If I thought grinding axles was one of the worlds worst jobs, this one is right up there with it.

    First thing throw the big unusable stuff away and sweep...
    [​IMG]

    Then cut and grind the dual exhaust off ~ I saved the DynoMax mufflers since they seem to be in good shape. In the background you can see the axle trash from the previous night.
    [​IMG]

    Next, I cut ~ ground ~ and smoothed the frame till it was bare. No brackets, no hangers, no crossmember. Finished that off with a nice wire-wheelin' of the frame to get the 28 years of road grime and crap clean so I can get good welds for the frame sleeves.
    [​IMG]
    I really should have wore a mask when I did that ~ I mean a filtering mask, not just a face shield. (cough cough... Holy black buggers! ~ sorry couldn't resist)

    Then I dug out my CAD drawings for the link system. I developed this system back in 2000, and it's the same stuff I used on Project 2, Project 3, our 4-link system and Project Rusty. Needless to say, the system is proven, but this time the mounts will be different ~ to give more road worthy manners.
    [​IMG]

    Nexted I grabbed the brackets and started welding them up. As you can see, I used the center of the flex joints to properly space the brackets for use with these joints. You can use any joints you want ~ bushings, flex joints, hiems ~ but you need to make sure that the brackets are properly spaced for whatever your using. I figured this was the safest and easiest way to be 100% that the joints will fit afterwards!
    [​IMG]

    Then it was time to start mocking up the brackets on the frame sleeves.
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    Here's the lower link mounts placed. I took some measurements and I should end up with a 103-105" Wheel base. This will be good since we're going to use 37" tires on this build.
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    As you can see, I moved the reinforcement plates down to the frame sleeve ~ this gives more of a smooth sliding ramp for the lower link mounts ~ Just in case.

    Seam welded up.
    [​IMG]

    Last I decided to cut some gusset plates to fully enclose the side brackets.
    [​IMG]
    yes this can trap water in there ~ which can cause rust eventually, but I figure they are 3/8" thick and will be heavily painted. Chances are it'll take a few decades to cause enough rust to worry about ~ and by then, the body will have fallen off!

    Anyway, that's where it stopped tonight. Shop full of smoke from cutting/welding/sanding ~ two HOT frame sleeves with BEEFY brackets freshly attached and fully welded. Tomorrow I've got the lower link material coming in, and will install said frame sleeves, weld them on, and start prep'n for axle installation.

    Stay tuned.
     
  10. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    YOu know, you BB guys get really quiet when I get into the more hard-core modification/documentation.

    Am I loosing ya? Do you have any questions? Thoughts? Did I just say something that made everyone leave? Or are ya just watching and waiting for whats next?

    :confused:
     
  11. dukguy

    dukguy Farmall Cub

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    Looking good!
     
  12. Wayne_L

    Wayne_L Farmall Cub

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    just patiently waiting to see how the frame sleeves and brackets with links line up ....your not done yet :D
     
  13. reddevil1111

    reddevil1111 Farmall Cub

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    I think about how you approach what you are doing. I see if I can think of a better or stronger way...AND I sit in envy. (I know I shouldnt)I dream of hitting the lotto so I can afford a coil over.
    There is a pride that you feel as an owner of a Scout. It is not there when you own a H**p or a yota. I think its from the lines of the truck, the durability and the headaches.
    Not everyone thinks this is what you should do to a Scout. I belive any Scout in any condition is better than no Scout. Or maybe letting the scrap yards all fill up with our good rust.
    Keep rockin it Damian! Its very impressive and cool!
     
  14. Rough74

    Rough74 Farmall Cub

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    Sure, all the cool stuff gets done when I'm not there. Oh, I'm getting excited!
     
  15. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Oh trust me, I wish your were here to help grind and sand that frame! Holy crap did that suck. I didn't get in till 9:30+. The good thing is that now the frame is bare and although I'm going to sand it again, it should produce sparks, not road-grime dust! :eek:

    the plan is to have the frame sleeves in place today, mock up the crossmember, get that in and start making things solid. :cool:
     
  16. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Thats the truth its certainly not done yet. I should be picking up the upper and lower link materials today and have those cut and mocked up tonight. So you shouldn't have to wait too long. Gee, I hope they line up alright :eek: :eek: :confused:


    ;) ~ I know its a little dangerous welding everything solid before I actually put the stuff in place, but when you think about it. I'm going to need to build these and send them out. So I'm putting myself in my customers shoes. You start out with "X" ~ and it should fit onto "Y".

    A stronger way? Stronger than 3/8" thick brackets and 1/4" frame sleeves? Wow. :cool:

    That's going to be the beauty of this system when its done. Coil-overs are not required. I'm going to be putting them in the front of this rig, but as far as the kit, they'll be standard coils. i've found a relatively cheap coil supplier and I'll be employing the same coil-retention system we've used on my machinist's buggy. It should work awesome.

    In case you didn't notice. All the brackets I've used thus far are straight from RuffStuff Specialties. Virtually all the IH fab guys I know use their parts as their own (shhhh ~ don't tell you know :eek: ). I did this for one big reason. Cost is about the same ~ if you get them through me or through RS, but the simple fact of the matter is that you can see the brackets I'm using, see how I'm putting it together and then do it yourself. If that means you can buy the kit from me :D :D ~ or if you need/want to collect the parts as time and money dictate, and have the gumption to do it yourself. You certainly can.

    So far I've got a few thousand in parts in this project ~ but still.

    'and the headaches' I love it. Well said.

    YET! I'm not going to mix words here. My goal is to make coiled scouts as common as SOA scouts. When I got into this business, SOA was voodoo. The rumors of them not being safe, and all that trash have been properly dealt with and now they are much more common place than ever before. At-home mechanics are doing them every day. The stigma that used to haunt the dreded "soa" is all but disappeared.

    Its time that we move coils into the lime-light. I'm a little embarrassed that the great IH fab guys haven't done it yet. We boast of being cutting edge, "the best" ~ yet we dibble in 30+ year old technology. :( We stand so proud being dressed in mountain man outfits holding our nice and shiney 50 cal. black powder rifles while our competition is weilding Mini-guns! Yes, we can out-shoot them on a one-on-one basis, but we're severely out-gun'd.

    Common' men! The trickest suspensions we have within our community are done by garage mechanics and weekend warriors that are tired of waiting for the vendors to meet the needs. Think about it. JoshC, Rueben, Binder (dont know is name for sure) all these guys have been running coil'd rigs in one form or another for years! Sure I've built a few (P2, P3, & Rusty) and sold a handfull of 4-link kits, but even with that, I've not developed a kit :rolleyes: (And I've had the plans you see above for close to SEVEN YEARS!).

    Coils suspensions are 20+ years old but are finally seeing the off-road refinement that SOAs recieved in the 90s and early 2000s. As a whole, the IH community hasn't tapped this resource and I think its time we did.

    Matt has heard my rant before on how low-tech the IH community is ~ about the only exception I can think of is Mike @ IHO developing the aluminum manifolds and working with AFI for a MultiPort Fuel Injection system ~ To which I aplaud Mike for his guts, brains and 'long suffering' with that project. In fact, that's the reason why we're putting in a HP44 ~ JUST TO DO IT! Why the heck not? Its there, we're there ~ lets put one and one together!

    I'm sorry for jumping on my soap box ~
    :cool: You know I will.

    Sorry for my soap box rant. I just feel strongly about some things. :D

    Anyway, I've seen the feedback and participation that Scott Sinner got from his 4-link system and I just wanted to let ya'll know that I'm 100% willing to answer any questions ya'll have about this (except of course finer details on design and measurements and stuff ;) ). I hope no one feels intimidated or shy about asking questions. That's why this build is here. That's what this is all about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2007
  17. jhnyct

    jhnyct High Wheeler

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    I may have missed it, but are you just using the HP44 center section or are you going to be running DS drop?
     
  18. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    While working on the Evolution project, I tore apart the two front axles today to set them up for making a HP44 ~ Turns out we have more parts to sell from the original

    I've got a newer TruTrac :SOLD:

    The entire Rear axle. Still SUA. But has 3.73 gears and an EZlocker: $SOLD
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2007
  19. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    No you didn't miss it ~ and since its come up a few times on the phone and from pass-r-by's I figure I'll explain.

    HP44 means I'm going to run a "High Pinion" Dana44. Also known as a "Reverse Cut" differential.

    In the 1970s Ford 'invented' the High Pinion/Reverse cut axle. The problem is that when 4x4 designers made the production front Dana44s, they simply took a rear axle and put knuckles on it. Although this works well, the axle spins backwards ~ on the back side of the ring gear's teeth. Which means, the front axle is constantly working on the weaker side of the gears.

    Ford created the "reverse cut" axles that flipped the R&P in the housing which caused the front axle to work on the strong side of the ring gear's teeth. To do this, it looks like the redesigned the axle to run upsidedown ~ literally. So if you visually take your rear axle and flip the axle over (pinion still pointing to the t-case) you can see that the pinion will be above the centerline of the axle ~ hence the designation of "High Pinion"

    High Pinion or Reverse Cut axles have two big advantages. Strength and clearance. The strength part comes from the ring and pinion working on the strong side of the gears ~ hence they hold up to punishment a bit better. The clearance comes from the pinion being above the centerline of the axle (or above the axle tubes). Yes the pumkin is the same size and can be hit on rocks just as easy as a standard/low pinion axle ~ but the driveshaft and pinion yoke don't drag on rocks as easily as they normally would.

    Now that I think of it, there is a third advantage. The pinion being so high allows for better pinion angles and caster without turning the knuckles. Since the pinion is up about 4" higher than a normal axle, you don't need to angle the pinion up so much when doing a SOA or installing a CV shaft. That means that you may get away without turning knuckles ~ in fact, normally you don't see HP/RC axles 'cut-n-turned'.

    Now before you all go out and try to find a ReverseCut or HighPinion axle, there's something you should know ~ and that brings us to the question
    The answer is that we're only using the center section and converting the whole axle to passenger drop. Why is this nessesary? Simple. Ford designed the HP axle and Fords have the pumpkin on the driver side. Meaning that if you look at a ford axle, the transfercase front output is under the driver, not the passenger. That's why these axles are not normally swapped into scouts. In order for one to work, you need to remove the tubes and switch them long side for short side and vise-versa so that the axle housing is on the passenger side. If you dont, you have the change your t-case to a driver-drop t-case like in early broncos or late model (1986+) jeeps.

    To do this, we will be taking the donor ford axle to a machinist and having the tubes cut off it. Then we will have the tubes cut off the Scout axle. Then the machinist will install the axle tubes from the scout onto the ford housing ~ thus making it a high-pinion axle, but it'll work with a passenger side t-case.

    I'll take photo's of it in the morning ~ I've got both axles loaded into my truck and will be taking them to the machinists in the morning ~ right now temps are down to below zero ~ so I'm staying in! ;)
     
  20. Tonka Toy

    Tonka Toy Binder Driver

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    Maaaaaaaann,..... all the great deals come when I'm low on reserve cash. :eek: (kicks the dirt) :rolleyes:
     

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