T35 Bellhousing and Flywheel housing questions

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Wolfemax, Aug 29, 2014.


  1. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    Hi, I'm very new to the IH world, and somewhat by accident. I bought a D354 Perkins from a 60's International cabover for a repower I've just started working on and it came with what I believe to be a T35 transmission. I was expecting an SAE bellhousing but my measurements don't match any SAE pattern that I've found. I've tried to find which pattern it has, but I haven't been able to confirm. I've read on BP (from what I understand) about guys replacing their engines with 6.9/7.3 diesels, and bolting their T35's up to it. Would it be possible to do the opposite - bolt a ZF5 from a Ford 6.9/7.3 to my Perkins? Would I need the flywheel housing as well as the bellhousing (which is integrated with the transmission case on the ZF)? Here's a pic of the measurements of the flywheel housing on my Perkins: [​IMG]

    Any insight is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks!

    This is the transmission:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    I tried looking at the pictures that I posted, and I can't read the measurements, so I'm assuming that you can't either. The distances from bolt hole to bolt hole, starting at the 9 o'clock (or so) position and continuing clockwise are 6.25" 5.25" 8.25" 5.25" and 6.25". The two bottom bolt holes are much smaller than the other 6, and they're 7 7/16" (7.4375) apart.
     
  3. ruderunner

    ruderunner High Wheeler

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    I can't answer your question directly but I can shed some light on the Ford ZF transmission. The ZF for the diesles have a different bellhousing pattern that the Ford gas engines AND they still use an adaptor plate to mate to the IH 6.9/7.3.

    I'm pretty sure the Perkins bellhousing pattern is different from the 6.9/7.3 (MV series engines) anyways so it won't work.
     
  4. Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz

    Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz Super Mod from Downunder Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Your terminology could be off and I am wondering if you actually have a Perkins engine, here is why, you describe it as a D354, yet the perkins is identified as 6354 and the turbo version work really well - just make sure the bleed off lines from the injectors are clear.

    However, calling the engine a D354, are you sure because a D358 is an international engine made in Germany, often known as a 'Nuess diesel' after the plant, if it's one of them, it will have the IH cast into the block.

    Which is better? the Perkin is a way way better engine.
     
  5. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the replies! I'm pretty sure that it is in fact a Perkins engine. Here's an except I found from a different forum, taken from the International trucks book by Frederick Crismon:

    page 331:
    "...while a new D-354 diesel was offered in everything except the all wheel drive models. While the older D-301 six cylinder still offered diesel economy for urban operations, with 112 hp @ 3k rpm, the new D-354 provided 130 hp @ 2,800 rpm, and was intended for heavier vocational use. It was based on the 120 hp Perkins Six-354 model, and was uprated by International.

    Built by Perkins in Peterborough, England, the D-354 weighed 1,095 lbs. stripped, only 300 to 400 lbs. more than the comparable gas engines, but delivered excellent HP, fuel economy, and reliability, plus its compact dimensions allowed it to fit nicely into the Loadstar's engine compartment. The D-354 was an inline six cylinder, 354 cubic inch model with a 3-7/8" bore and 5" stroke, and a comp. ratio of 16:1. Gross HP was 131 @ 2,800 rpm, with a gross torque rating of 282 lb/ft at 1,400 rpm. It compared well with other similar engines of the day which were intended for use in medium duty trucks such as Cummins' JNF-130 and the Detroit 4-53. Unfortunately, there was not a strong demand for these engines in the U.S., and not very many of the D-354 were ordered by customers. Gas was still relatively inexpensive, and the noise and vibration of diesels had not yet been accepted for general use, especially in light and medium urban deliver trucks."

    Here's a couple of pictures of my engine that would support my belief that it is a Perkins:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Speaking of terminology, I want to make sure I have mine correct. I would call the "adapter" that attaches to the engine block a "flywheel housing", and the piece that goes between the flywheel housing and the transmission the "bell housing". Correct me if I'm wrong or if I should be using different terms. Ruderunner mentioned the MV series engines. I understand there to be the SV, MV, and LV family of International engines (again, correct me if I'm wrong), and that they don't interchange. Does the 'MV' designation refer to the bolt pattern for mounting the "flywheel housing" to the engine block? Would my bell housing bolt pattern be the International 5-speed pattern, or something different, or is there a different name for it? Sorry for all the questions, I've been doing a bunch of research, but I'm not confident in the answers I've been finding.
     
  6. Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz

    Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz Super Mod from Downunder Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    International may have called it a D354, out here International called it by it's correct name 6-354 Perkins, you will have way more luck finding information on the engine using 6-354 or Perkins 354 as a search term on the internet, many many of these were sold in International trucks here.

    You are correct, the 'adaptor' bolts to the engine, the bell housing then bolts to that and the transmission is then also bolted to the bellhousing.
     
  7. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the info. I'd actually been looking for a 354 for about 2 years (not very hard, because I don't actually have the vehicle I want to put it in yet), and I'd never heard them referred to as the D-354 until I read about the Perkins in IH trucks a couple of weeks ago.

    Could someone tell me the name of the bellhousing and flywheel housing bolt patterns that I have? Let me know if I need to provide more info in order for you to answer that question.

    Has anyone out there put an NV4500 or ZF5 behind one of these engines?

    Thanks again for the responses!
     
  8. ruderunner

    ruderunner High Wheeler

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    You are correct on the engine family names SV, MV (gas and the 6.9/7.3 diesels), LV and they do not swap between families. There is also one for the IH built inline 6 gas engines which is different from the above. I'd be highly surprised if the Perkins has any of those bolt patterns.

    My guess is that somewhere there is a "flywheel" cover that fits the Perkins and has an SAE bellhousing pattern and I wouldn't be surprised to find a bell housing with the same SAE pattern that can adapt to an IH 5 speed and or the NV4500 and certainly a Spicer 5 speed. The issue at that point is coming up with the right input shaft length. I doubt the ZF has anything like that availible due to the integral bellhousing.
     
  9. bindermike

    bindermike Farmall Cub

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    I have heard that IH made made/used SAE engine adapters and transmission adapters (flywheel housing and bellhousing) for LV and MV gas engines used in medium-duty trucks, but have personally never seen one. I don't have much medium-duty experience, so take that for what it's worth...

    You do not have an SAE pattern.

    Your transmission adapter mates the engine adapter (from Perkins?) to the IH Spicer T-35 transmission. For most purposes, these are pretty much unique patterns and won't have much interchangeability. You could use your transmission adapter for any of the IH Spicer transmissions (T-34, T-35, or T-36). Ratios are:

    T-34/T-494 = 6.21, 3.43, 1.81, 1.00, 0.82

    T-35/T-495 = 7.17, 3.96, 2.37, 1.41, 1.00

    T-36/T-496 = 6.21, 3.43, 2.05, 1.22, 1.00

    Your T-35 should be standard, with the exception of the top cover (shifter) configured for the cabover. You could replace the top cover with one from a straight truck (top mounted shifter). The ratios are decent for a medium-duty truck with a two-speed rear end, but wouldn't be desirable for a highway-driven pickup (especially if you intend to tow).

    Your easiest option, for a highway-driven pickup, would be the T-36, but you would need a high geared (low numerically) rear axle and/or tall tires to make up for the lack of overdrive.

    You may be able to find an SAE engine adapter, flywheel, and clutch from an industrial 6-354, which could provide more options.

    Of course, custom options can mate anything to anything. All it takes is time and money. What is your intended vehicle and use for the engine?

    You might try the 4BTSwaps website. They're B-series Cummins heavy, but have sections for most flavors of diesel engines. There may be some Perkins guys who could provide insights.

    Good Luck, Mike
     
  10. bindermike

    bindermike Farmall Cub

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    Me again...

    I was surfing through some old stuff on my computer, saw a picture of an IH 5-speed transmission adapter (bellhousing), and it got me thinking...

    IF your engine adapter is to the "standard" IH pattern, you could use an IH 4-speed transmission adapter (bellhousing) from an IH pickup or Scout, and then modify an NV4500 with the kit from IH Parts America. http://www.shopih.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ION&Product_Code=CPT-NV4500-ADPTR-KIT&Category_Code=

    Good Luck, Mike
     
  11. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the replies guys, I'm feeling more like I have a direction to go now. I'm going to pursue the IH Parts America route and see what happens.

    Can someone confirm that my "engine adapter is to the "standard" IH pattern"? There's a picture of it on my first post with measurements if you need it for reference.

    I feel I owe you an answer to the question of intended vehicle and use, although I'm a little nervous, 'cause it's not an IH. The plan is to make a FrankenBronco. I've always liked the way they look, especially the '78 and '79 models, but I couldn't justify buying one because of the poor fuel economy. I heard about the Perkins diesel and started looking into it. The plan is to mate my 354 with an NV4500, a right-hand drop NP205, and Dana 61 axles with 3.08 gears. Intended use is primarily a commuter. I live about 45 minutes from my work, mostly highway. We are usually buried in snow here from November to April, so four wheel drive is used frequently. I also intend to haul our small (~2000 lb) camper, and heavier loads if the need arises (maybe once a year, but likely not even that).

    Like I mentioned in my first post, I'm new to the IH world, but I've been very pleasantly surprised with the amount of knowledge and information here on BP, and with the willingness to pass on helpful advice. Thanks!
     
  12. ruderunner

    ruderunner High Wheeler

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    For your intended use may I suggest finding an older F250 diesel and swapping the complete drivetrain. I know it's not "different" but certainly easier to do and parts are easy enough to find. Not to mention that getting a donor Ford truck is going to be way cheaper than trying to make the Perkins work.

    That said, try looking through the diesel section on this site, there may be some useable info there. Also the truck section since my guess is thatthe parts you're searching for are likely easier to find in medium duty vehicles.

    Also, IIRC Patrick66 had a Perkins powered T-all, don't know if he still has it but perhaps he canshed some light on this. Actually not sure he's even on the site anymore but...
     
  13. ruderunner

    ruderunner High Wheeler

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    For your intended use may I suggest finding an older F250 diesel and swapping the complete drivetrain. I know it's not "different" but certainly easier to do and parts are easy enough to find. Not to mention that getting a donor Ford truck is going to be way cheaper than trying to make the Perkins work.

    That said, try looking through the diesel section on this site, there may be some useable info there. Also the truck section since my guess is thatthe parts you're searching for are likely easier to find in medium duty vehicles.

    Also, IIRC Patrick66 had a Perkins powered T-all, don't know if he still has it but perhaps he canshed some light on this. Actually not sure he's even on the site anymore but...
     
  14. Wolfemax

    Wolfemax Farmall Cub

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    Yeah, you're right, using the entire powertrain from an F250 would be a lot easier, and I did seriously consider going that route, but I'd really like to make the Perkins work. My understanding is that the Perkins is more fuel efficient, and considering that I'm planning to keep this Bronco forever (barring some sort of disaster) the additional cost of adapters and whatnot should pay for themselves over time.

    Thanks for the advice and the input. It is all appreciated. If there's anything anyone can add to this, I'd like to hear it.
     
  15. patrick66

    patrick66 Farmall Cub

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    Yup, I'm still around, but check in about once a month since I sold that Travelall. It had that installed when the truck was maybe a year old by the original owner, who was an aircraft engineer from the DFW area. The "kit" was available from IH dealers, which included everything needed to install a 6.354T Perkins to a T-34 o/d transmission, which my old TA has - I sold the truck two and a half years ago to a guy in Arkansas, who just recently sold it to a guy in south-central Oklahoma.

    I got 26 mpg on the highway with the truck, and around 16-18 in town, which is what the subsequent owners also got, as well.

    Now, as far as the parts you are mentioning to make an install work in your IH, I really can't tell you specifics there, as I just do not know.
     
  16. Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz

    Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz Super Mod from Downunder Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    you may be able to get an SAE adaptor from a SV powered bus which has the allison automatic trans in it, then redrill the adaptor ring to suit your engine.
     
  17. arrowmntdiesel

    arrowmntdiesel Farmall Cub

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    Wolfemax,

    Do you have an update on your project. I know it has been just about a year, but I am interested in seeing what you have come up with.

    Thanks,
    Mark
     
  18. bmacguyver

    bmacguyver High Wheeler

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    you would need a #2 sae flywheel housing and the 14" flywheel to go with it as well a a divorced 205 case but another good trans option would be a 7 speed also called a 6+ or 6+1 overdrive, behind a 466e the splits are great and the truck we have one in runs 80 on low pro 19.5's, dont know what rear end gear yet.
     

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