Stumped starting issue, suggestions needed

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by michigan scout, Jul 16, 2019.


  1. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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    ok, I got a 47 with a green diamond here is what I have done, new plugs, wires, points, cap rotor condesor, new resistor. coil. I have gone from 6v to 12v. All I get is a hit once in a while or a burp and that's it. I set the points at .0018. I thought maybe the valves were stuck, pulled the head everything looked great, was a little carbon build up so I clean that up but everything moved freely. I did ask in another post about the carb but nobody offered any help/advise. I pulled the carb apart and cleaned it, but it was actually really clean. I have just been dumping some gas in the carb or a shot of Either, I do have a little tank hooked to the fuel pump, and yes, the fuel pump is working. I also brought the number 1 cylinder up to the top, checked the rotor on the cap to make sure it is at position of the spark plug wire going to number 1. I also rotated the wires left or right. ANY suggestions or ideas? I am stumped. I verified spark at the plugs also..Can you not dump gas down the 1 barrel carb like the V-8 and they run for a few seconds???? could this be all carb related...the only thing I can think of is source another carb and try it??? Picture not real clear, broke glass on my camera in the phone so have some black spots
     

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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  2. Dana Strong

    Dana Strong Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Did you mean 18/1000" = 0.018 ?​
    If you didn't have the engine running before starting work on it, how can you be sure the timing was set correctly before? Could it be firing between the exhaust and intake stroke, rather than on the compression stroke? If you rotate the engine in the correct direction while looking at the valves, the intake valve should have closed near BDC and the piston should be compressing the mixture as it rises to TDC, where the cylinder should fire.

    So long as you don't actually flood it, and assuming each cylinder gets some of the fuel, I'd expect it to fire a few times or more. Might squirt some oil in as extra lubrication for the rings, just in case you have a bit too much gasoline and that is washing the cylinder walls a bit.

    Edit:
    Another thing to consider is the compression; have you done any tests of it? When you pulled the head, did you rotate the crank to be sure the valves were operating correctly?
    Do you know any history of the engine? Any chance it was rebuilt before you got it and not put together properly, as timing gears off a tooth or more, so valve timing is wrong? Is the spark really strong, blue colored? Plugs gapped right? Only so many things that can not be set correctly or working right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  3. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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  4. frozenh2o

    frozenh2o Farmall Cub

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    Like Dana mentioned, you have to verify that when the distributor rotor is pointing at #1, that cylinder #1 is on the compression stroke. Pull the valve cover and see if both valves for #1 are closed (you should be able to move the rocker arms and feel the valve clearance, just like when you are adjusting the valves). Then verify you have the firing order correct, making sure you verify the direction the distributor rotor turns.
    Remember, it doesn't take much for these things to run. Open the choke, shoot some ether down the carb. If you have compression, and fire the spark at roughly the right time it will run.
     
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  5. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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    There is no valve cover, It's a flat head, unless you are talking about the side cover of the engine which is impossible to see unless you pull the engine, maybe take the inner fender off?? I have rotated the engine so #1 piston is at the top of the block and then verified that the rotor (rotates counter clockwise) is at the #1 plug wire.
     
  6. frozenh2o

    frozenh2o Farmall Cub

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    Haha flathead, ok no valve cover on top. Well on the chance that you are not on the compression stroke on #1, rotate the engine one revolution and use that rotor position as #1 and move the spark plug wires to match the firing order.
     
  7. Dana Strong

    Dana Strong Lives in an IH Dealership

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    If somebody before you put it together wrong, it could still be wrong, off by 360*.
    Long ago, I did this many times on a Rambler 196 straight six. You don't have enough room to remove the cover, clean the surfaces, and properly put it back on when done? If you can do that, you should be able to either use a mirror to see, or do it just by feel. Get the engine at TDC for #1 and try to rotate the pushrods. Then turn the engine a little bit (maybe 10*?) and feel the rods again, then repeat. If on the compression stroke, both rods should be loose (able to rotate) until about BDC, when the exhaust valve should open so its rod should get tight. If 360* from Compression TDC, the intake should become tight as you rotate past TDC.
    Another way is to remove just #1 sparkplug, make an adapter of some kind so you can blow air into that cylinder. With the air cleaner off, you should be able to tell if air is going back through the intake valve, or rather into the exhaust (listen at tailpipe), as you rotate the engine in small increments as described above.
     
  8. Greg R

    Greg R Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    1st thing to check is spark. Pull a plug wire. With the ignition on, crank engine and hold the wire terminal about 1/4" from a ground point or plug terminal. You should see a yellowish to blue spark jump the 1/4" gap. If it doesn't or you have to move it very close to ground and get a faint weak spark, there's an electrical problem.

    To verify timing, I strongly suggest you go through a static timing procedure. Rather than long paragraphs explaining detail, I've uploaded a page from the manual. It's simple, no special tools needed other than a test light. If you don't have one, get one or make one. They're indispensable for these old rigs.
     

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  9. John Trumpe

    John Trumpe Farmall Cub

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    Why not pull number one spark plug and put your thumb over the hole while rotating the engine in it's operating direction with a wrench ???? You can feel it come up on compression. When it stops pushing your thumb, it should be at or near TDC. Then check your rotor to see if it is pointing at number one wire.

    If it is, set the crank pulley for the correct advance BTDC. Then back up the distributor or retard it, and slowly advance it until you just see the points begin to open. Lock it down. You are now static timed. John
     
  10. mallen

    mallen High Wheeler

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    Many have already said this, but the suggestions are all over the place, here's the concise list. Stop, forget what everyone else has said for a second, and follow these steps. (Most of what everyone said is either included in these steps, or should not be bothered with UNTIL these steps are completed)

    0) Do NOT crank the engine more than about 15 seconds or so at time trying to start it. I have seen many vehicles with simple problems like a bad coil (or not so simple problems like a warped head and no compression) that have burned starters from someone cranking and cranking and cranking trying to start it or fix it. Stop and let it cool for about 30 seconds or a minute between attempts. Also dont go dissasembling things (like the engine!!) before you do THESE tests. You DID use a new head gasket, right?
    1) check compression. You can borrow a compression tester from most parts stores. They charge you a deposit and you get it back when you bring the tool back. Dont just assume this is ok, you pulled the head, even if it was before you cant be certain it is now. Check it, then you KNOW!
    2) check for spark. You should have a nice strong blue spark.
    3) check that the distributor is pointed toward the tower of the first plug in the firing order when that cylinder is at the top of its compression stroke.
    4) Check that the wires are all routed properly, starting at number one as verified above. Find the firing order stamped into your intake manifold and go off that. Double and triple check this as you have said that you have moved the wires around trying to see if that was the problem. (You should NEVER do that. Its a sign of "flailing around" Now you have created another question, did you screw something up as you were changing wires around. (Happens all the time, Ive done it myself which is why I say dont do that) Rather than randomly moving things and hoping to find a problem, find the order, find the number 1 position on the cap, and verify that it is wired correctly. Then you KNOW 100% that it is wired correctly)
    5) Verify with a timing light that the timing is correct. (If your getting spark, you can verify with a timing light even if the engine only cranks but does not start)
    6) make sure you have fuel to the carburetor. You should get a squirt of fuel from the accelerator pump when you stomp the pedal. If this is the only problem, a squirt of starter fluid will make it start for a few seconds. Also make sure the choke on the carburetor is working.

    If these things are all good, then the engine should start. If the engine does not start, one of these is most likely bad. Be methodical about your diagnosis rather than jumping around trying this and that and you will find the solution. If you narrow it down to which of those is the problem, we can help you figure out the exact thing you need to fix.

    Edit: Added a bit about checking the plug wire routing. Also added step 0, dont fry your starter.
    Follow those steps in order. One of them will come up with something broken. Report back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  11. Greg R

    Greg R Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Well I suppose in a pinch maybe, but when you're in a shop you can choose a better way. Parallax errors, lighting/shadows, can and do make it harder than needed. Using a test light is way easier visually and gets you in the ball park for fine tuning quicker.
     
  12. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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  13. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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  14. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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  15. jeff campbell

    jeff campbell Lives in an IH Dealership

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    No response darrin ? Wtf ?
     
  16. mallen

    mallen High Wheeler

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    If you click on "click to expand" , he has responded to each of my items in a red colored font. He has checked he has fuel to the carburetor, and a good spark, although he said that there is no fuel squirt from the carb, he tried it with starting fluid and got nothing. So its likely either timing, or compression that is his main problem, and then after that the carburetor, but he should get something with the starter fluid.
     
  17. mallen

    mallen High Wheeler

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    Just thought of one other thing I did not mention. Pull a spark plug after you attempt to start it and see if it is wet with fuel. Also look down the carb into the intake manfold with the throttle fully open and see if it looks wet. If your needle valves were sticking and fuel was gushing into the engine when you crank it it could flood it so bad that it does not even try to start. (dont put your face over the carb to look for it when your cranking, because its not uncommon for an engine to backfire through the carburetor and you dont want your face there if that happens)

    But make it a priority to check compression. You could have gotten a bad seal on the new head gasket, the valve timing could be totally off or the timing chain broken. Lots of things inside the engine can get you to a situation where you have no compression. An engine that is "bad" or "blown" and cranks but does not start does not have compression. Otherwise it would start and run, however badly.
     
  18. jeff campbell

    jeff campbell Lives in an IH Dealership

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    All thank you sir ! Nice.Cool.
     
  19. michigan scout

    michigan scout High Wheeler

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    compression is
    1-65
    2-88
    3-92
    4-70
    5-92
    6-70
    what do y'all think?
     
  20. Greg R

    Greg R Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Not too bad. Did you do a wet or dry test? Maximum cranking speed with the carburetor wide open? Squirt some oil in the cylinders and see if the numbers even out.
     

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