SOLVED- Ignition issues! was: 1967 S800 4cylinder not running right- ideas?

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Scoutcamper, Jul 28, 2019.


  1. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    I'm about to start pulling my hair out on this one.

    1967 Scout 800, 196 4cyl with Holey 1904, 4spd manual.

    Bckground:
    The original problem was it started suddenly running badly / stalling / backfiring to the point of being undriveable. This happened within about 2-3 miles of driving after running pretty much perfectly since I bought it. I suspect it started leaking past the needle / seat, and likely also had a bad power valve. In addition, the carb was the wrong one for the 196- it was the smaller carb for the 152 that the PO had opened up a mounting hole and bolted on anyway.

    I have done the following:
    1: New plugs, wires, cap & rotor, coil & points- replaced 1 at a time and verified no change in running
    2: Checked compression- all good, 110 - 120 psi on all 4 cylinders
    3: Tried running from gas can of fresh gas- no change
    4: Battery charge is good
    5: Verified 6.5 - 7V at coil
    6: Gotten correct carb & rebuilt it correctly
    7: Replaced soft lines and filters between pump and carb

    With the new carb in place it seems to WANT to run, where before the carb swap it had gotten to the point where it would just fire over a few times and die without even starting to idle, while backfiring occasionally.

    Looks like it's gonna make me create the thread before allowing a video so...
     
  2. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    Here's a vid of the best I was able to get it to run after a morning of tinkering...


    My best guess right now is that it's not retracting the starter gear and trying to turn the starter while running. If this is the case, I'm pretty sure it's a recent development.

    Any alternate theories of other stuff to check?

    I can't keep it running long enough right now to check timing or dwell, but I didn't loosen the starter and have no reason to think it's changed from when it was running great. I set points gap per spec, can't remember number off the top of my head.

    Let me know if I'm overlooking something simple.

    -Josh
     
  3. Bill Bennett

    Bill Bennett High Wheeler

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    Increase the idle speed. Starter sounds ok. Did you use a new gasket under the carb after the rebuild?
     
  4. George Womack

    George Womack Y-Block King

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    I can’t see your PCV valve or hose. Where and how are they installed/connected?
     
  5. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    Good suggestions: I thought I already had the idle speed maxed out, but I was able to get probably another 1 1/2 turns on it. Maybe made a little difference but I'm not sure. I messed around with it for another hour or so, and it gradually degraded back to the point where it won't even TRY to idle. Going to recheck the voltage at the coil since I know that wiring is sketchy, recheck points to make sure I didn't burn 'em up testing, and then the only other thing I can think of is to throw on a cheap "no resistance wire needed" coil and try running out of a gas can to make sure the gas hasn't gone bad, since I last tried that a couple months back.

    Feels like I'm chasing ghosts. I really hate to use the shotgun approach and just throw parts at it though.

    -Josh
     
  6. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    Going by memory and pictures, since I've already buttoned things up and put the car cover on:

    No PCV, but a balance hose from the valve cover to the oil fill tube, and only vacuum connection at the intake manifold is going down to the fuel pump vacuum side.

    I have not removed any PCV or vacuum hoses except the vac advance when I replaced the carb, and I did check that was secure.

    Brand new carb base gasket, and I'm pretty sure it's sealing well.

    -Josh
     
  7. Scott L

    Scott L High Wheeler

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    Check for vacuum leak. As George noted PCV valve and hose. Still got vacuum wipers? Leaks at the valves on the knobs on the dash can be a culprit. Replaced the old 152 sources carb? Got good seal around carb base? Checked for leaks using starting fluid around base of carb?
     
  8. Bill Bennett

    Bill Bennett High Wheeler

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    If you are trying to start the engine in a 'cold' condition, are you hitting the throttle a couple times to provide a 'rich' mixture in the intake manifold? Pull the choke out about 1/2 way to maintain the rich fuel mix and to operate the fast idle cam. Crank the engine to start and push the choke control back in after the motor has run for 30 seconds.
     
  9. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    It was 112 degrees + and direct sunlight in the driveway, in late afternoon- Phoenix, AZ- but I did try choke to see if it made a difference. Didn't help, seemed to make things worse.

    Pumping the pedal (linkage actually, from under the hood) and getting 1-2 good shots of fuel did seem to help things fire off and start idling at first, but by the time I gave up it didn't seem to make much if any difference.

    Also- I am sure I connected linkages so choke is opening completely when dash knob is "in", and throttle opens and closes completely with the pedal, and is completely closed with pedal released.

    Not my first rodeo with carb rebuilding & install by way too many.

    One additional note making me suspect ignition problems: I tried using some starter fluid once things went downhill, and it did NOT make any improvement in it firing off.

    In my experience, a good shot of starter fluid should at least fire you off if you are having fuel / fuel delivery problems but still getting spark.

    -Josh
     
  10. mallen

    mallen High Wheeler

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    Is that an oversight or did you not change the condesnor? Also try this. Take the distributor cap and rotor off. Put a dial gauge on the end of the distributor shaft and apply a little presure in various directions, looking for excessive play. I had that problem and could not get the points to hold their dwell. Id set it right and it would run for a few minutes and then go out again. Whatever you do, do NOT exchange your distributor for a junk Cardone rebuild. Your distributor has a particular set of mechanical advance weights, springs and a particular vacuum advance can. The Cardone is probably has the wrong ones for your application. On top of that, they are just crap quality. I went through three or four before I found one that did not have the above mentioned runout issues. If you do end up needing a new distributor (its not in any way certain you do) , *****DO NOT***** turn in your old distributor for the core. Your best bet is to have the distributor rebuilt.

    First things first though,your telling us all the things you changed, but you have not mentioned all the diagnostics you did that indicated each of those were bad. If your not doing the diagnostics, then your just throwing money away ,flailing around and guessing, in the hope that these engines are so simple (and they actually are rather simple) that you will either stumble onto the problem, or replace everything, before you go broke, or just give up.

    Step 1: Check for spark. Disconnect a spark plug wire at the engine and place put a bolt or something in it, then put that bolt near something grounded like a bolt on the engine or body, but not touching. Keep it away from the carburetor and fuel lines. Crank the engine and look to see if there is a nice strong blue spark. Put the spark plug wire back on. Report back and tell us what you found

    Step 2: Disconnect the coil wire at the distributor and put it near something grounded like a bolt on the body or engine. Keep it away from the carburetor and fuel lines. You should get a nice strong blue spark. Reconnect the wire and report back

    Step 4: Connect up a dwell meter. Have a helper crank over the engine for about 10 seconds while you read the meter. **DO NOT** crank the engine over for more than about 15 seconds at a time and make sure you let it rest for about 30 seconds to a minute before trying again, otherwise you will damage the starter. (Ive seen plenty of cars that had a simple ignition or fuel problem AND a dead starter, because someone just cranked it and cranked it) Report back and tell us what you found.

    This will get you started. If these are good, then we can go on to timing and fuel.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
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  11. Don B

    Don B Farmall Cub

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    I didn’t see condenser on your list so for sure replace that. I would check for spark as well just to be sure. I see you have replaced the coil so I assume it’s ok but I have had a lot of bad luck with the ones they sell these days...even new. Recheck for a vacuum leak if the above doesn’t help. One other thing is a piece of crap that might have been in your fuel lines after your carb rebuild that ended up lodging in your new rebuilt carb.

    Don B
     
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  12. mallen

    mallen High Wheeler

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    Ive had that problem with the crud in the fuel lines myself. I rebuild the carb, and the needle valves were immediately contaminated with bits of stuff again. I cleaned them and it happened again. I then added a second very fine mesh fuel filter, one of the little colored anodized aluminum ones with the sintered brass filter element, and it never did it again. I put it after the main filter, so the big stuff gets caught there and then anything fine gets caught in the second filter.

    I think at this point though, its time to step back and start doing diagnostics from the beginning, as if he does not know anything has been done or replaced. Start with spark, then move on to timing,then fuel. So many parts of the engine have been touched, its hard to know whats going on. Ive been there myself. The only way out once you have done "replace everything" and it still does not work, is to go step by step, and do not assume there is only one problem. Any one of those parts that were replaced could be bad, or misinstalled, in addition to the original problem possibly still being there. Additionally new problems could have been introduced such as something not tightened down enough, or a wire that broke inside the insulation, or any number of other issues. But going through the step by step diagnostic ALWAYS works.
     
  13. Don B

    Don B Farmall Cub

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    Yup, the step by step method is the fall back way to go if it can't be readily diagnosed. The worst thing is double or more failures which makes it more challenging to figure out. One other thing which has happened to me a LOT is water eventually getting into a fuel line and then collecting at the lowest point. Once it builds up enough the fuel won't flow past it and the engine starves. Probably not relevant to this problem but I thought I'd mention it. Some rubbing alcohol in the gas takes care of this.

    Let us know what you find is the culprit!
     
  14. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for all the replies.

    I have been very methodical and not shotgunning parts at it. The tune-up stuff was in the works anyway and I did one piece at a time and looked for change before moving on.
    I did replace the condenser as well when I did the points.
    I replaced the fuel line going to the carb with brand new line, and put in a new clear filter at the firewall, so I am pretty confident it's not more junk in the carb, although I can't rule that out entirely. Looks like it's flowing OK.
    I posted on my "project Wilma" thread when I first started troubleshooting... I am 100% sure the old carb was a problem, but clearly not the only problem.

    I'm almost positive I'm chasing a spark issue at this point since it does not seem to light off any better on starter fluid than it does on gas.
    When it first started going bad a shot of gas or starter fluid evened it out for a bit.

    Moving forward, my next step will be to re-wire from the bulkhead to the coil, and coil to distributor, since these clearly need to be replaced anyway even if they are not the root cause. I'll check for 6.5 - 7V to the coil on the new harness.

    If that doesn't fix things, I'll check spark again, at coil then at plugs.
    If I get a weak spark on no spark at coil, I'll try replacing coil again.
    If I get a strong spark at coil, weak at plugs I will take a closer look at distributor items.
    If I get a strong spark at both I will look at timing and see if vac advance may be going bad.

    Any other suggestions I might be overlooking?
    Below is my post from Project Wilma, for original background.

    -Josh

     
  15. George Womack

    George Womack Y-Block King

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    What coil do you have?
     
  16. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    Standard Motor Products UC12T, a stock replacement per Rock Auto.

    I believe it had the insert in the box saying to keep the resister wire, not designed to run at 12V input, etc.

    -Josh
     
  17. George Womack

    George Womack Y-Block King

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    That's not correct. There should be a hose from the oil fill tube to the air cleaner. This is the fresh air inlet for the PCV system. Then a hose from the intake manifold to the PCV valve which would be mounted on the valve cover. Looks like the previous owner may have messed with the PCV system. I'm still thinking vacuum leak.


    .
     
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  18. Scoutcamper

    Scoutcamper Farmall Cub

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    The PO installed the rubber line from valve cover to oil fill tube, and had an aftermarket chrome air cleaner with no fittings.
    It was running fine on that setup since I bought it.

    I'd like to get an original style air cleaner housing back on there at some point but that's for another time.

    Got rained out so I couldn't do any troubleshooting today. Maybe in he morning.

    Any other places to check for vacuum leaks besides the following?
    -Carb base gasket
    -Vac line to distributor advance
    -Fitting at intake manifold for Windshield Wiper / Fuel Pump (cap off and look for any change?)
    -Intake manifold gasket

    -Josh
     
  19. Randall Barringer

    Randall Barringer Y-Block King

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    Yes, check the screws on the carb itself.
    I had a vacuum leak that I fought on my Travelall a while back. It turned out to be the 3 phillips head screws for the economizer body cover.
    With the engine running, I tightened them and it slowly got better.
    Good luck.
     
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  20. Jeff Ismail

    Jeff Ismail High Wheeler

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    Not discrediting anything anyone else has posted, my one question is what specs did you use to set the point gap at? You have a Delco distributor which runs at a different dwell angle than a Holley distributor. Recheck the specifications you used as it's easy to get the information mixed up and set the wrong gap from the get go.
     
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