Sad Scout--death rattle?

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by David Banner, Oct 2, 2015.


  1. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    Running down the hwy at my usual 75mph from a parts run...
    First I notice a slight loss of power but all feels smooth...
    Full throttle and only going 60mph so I let off the gas and then I hear a rattling sound...
    Then I see the oil pressure drop to ~30psi (mechanical pressure gauge--usually keeps 40psi on the hwy) and the temp gauge starts climbing...
    I completely let off the gas and pull over--the oil pressure drops to zero...
    come to a complete stop--engine's still idling smoothly but with a distinct rattle--oil pressure is zero--I shut it down.
    Engine temp continues to climb (up to 3/4 across the oem gauge) and some coolant boils over.
    Starter motor turns the motor over slowly... :no:
    Buddy brings tow dolly from U-haul and drags my Scout home...

    Now that it's cooled off, the motor quickly restarts and oil pressure builds to 40psi but there's a definite knocking noise that weren't there before, and the oil is now black and burnt smelling (rotellaT 15-40)...

    I guess the next step is to pull the oil pan and inspect for bits and pieces?
    Is there anything I should do before pulling the oil pan like a compression test...?

    The motor was professionally (I got papers!) rebuilt in '97. So there's either 60k or 160k miles on the motor.
    :drown:
     
  2. Erik VanRenselaar

    Erik VanRenselaar Y-Block King

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    My Scout's 304 got a 'death rattle' when a camshaft lobe went flat and dished a lifter. The original cam bearings finally gave up, causing low oil pressure at cruise speeds. The gunky oil drainback passages from the heads didn't help, either. Fortunately, a new camshaft, lifter set, timing set, and camshaft bearings made everything better.
     
  3. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Man that stinks , Hopefully the block is still ok, No spun cam bearings or other damage .
     
  4. Darrel

    Darrel Y-Block King

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    Do the papers itemize everything that was done? Maybe they reused the cam bearings. For some shops new rings and bearings with no machine work is "rebuilt".
     
  5. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    For fun I dug up the old paper work--it's pretty comprehensive actually.
    The work was done by L&L Performance in Aurora (don't know if they're still around) in 1998. The rebuilt engine is one of the reasons I bought this Scout back in 2003...
    Anyway, Ground the crank, bored the cylinders, balanced the pistons, replaced 8 exhaust valves, and, new cam bearings and freeze plugs. $2031.68!!!! That was some serious money back then! That's about what I paid for the (two) Scouts (the seller didn't want to separate the pair of yellow Scouts he had...).
    I'd say a pretty proper and through rebuild--and obviously done well, or it wouldn't have lasted this long. But I have no idea how many miles the PO put on it in 5 years before I bought it. I assumed only ~30k but maybe it was ~130k... That would mean either about 60k or 160k on the motor now.
    I Always kept the oil up in it. There were years where it mostly sat while I was deployed and a couple years where it got more miles plowing snow then commuting to work, but if a motor can't safely sit from time to time it's just not a good motor in my world...

    Either way, if the block has to come out something that weighs about 400lbs less and performs better is gonna go back in... :whistling:
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  6. Darrel

    Darrel Y-Block King

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    That does sound like a nice build, too bad it came apart. Are you thinking LS swap? :devil2:
     
    scout2000 likes this.
  7. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    Well, just like hydro-boost from an Astro-van. It's cheaper, and more effective in every way...

    However the juries still out--I haven't determined the cause of the rattle/knocking yet so it's premature to say what I do next...
     
  8. 76-scout-MATT

    76-scout-MATT High Wheeler

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    well don't buy a cherry picker ....and I still have your engine stand ... sad to hear that you are having problems ...Matt
     
  9. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    Thanks! Tomorrow, after I get the 'new' gas tank in the Saab, I'll start the diagnostics on the Scout...
     
  10. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    OOhh booy!
    Or "I don't know what that is, but it sure ain't right..." (Said to me by an Army Ranger after we made an emergency landing near Delanaga, GA. after I opened up the engine compartment of my beloved Huey..." But I digress...
    1009051809.jpg 1009051809a.jpg 1009051816.jpg
    All the chunks are magnetic--bearing material for sure--like a torn sheet...
    From the burnt oil crusted on the #5/6 rod bearings I'm guessing that's where the damage is--that black oil smells like death of an SV...
    I believe the crank was already turned .010ths over on it's rebuild 60k ago...

    What's my next step? Remove the rod bearing cap and try to assess/measure the damage to the crank?
    I'm told the rod bearings can be replaced with the block left in the Scout--if one rod bearing went bad how do I trust the others...? I've got some learning to do...
     
  11. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Remove cap, make sure that is the offending culprit, dang sure looks bad !! Looks like the main bearing took some flak also ..Ifn you can feel anything but a newborn babies bottom on the crank journal
    Don't even bother going any further ,It's gotta come out

    Oh ,To answer your question ,Yes all rod and main journals (except rear Main) can have new bearings installed without pulling motor ,
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
  12. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    Thanks. That's the kind of technical advice I can work with... :hammer:
    I can't imagine the crank isn't gonna be scored with the amount of metal lying in the pan but I guess we'll see tomorrow.

    Is there such a thing as cleaning the crank up in place and replacing the bearing just to keep the Scout locally mobile while I decide what I wanna do?
     
  13. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Locally mobile is the key words , , Maybe ---- show us some more pics of the rod and main bearing journal with the caps off
    I would not have to much hope for any quick temporary fixes
     
  14. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    I think this is the end... :drown:
    But those what know better can try and read the pix below... Neighbor (who's outa town) what know's machining better than I will put eyes to it next week...

    debris plie.JPG crank.JPG crank2.JPG crank3.JPG bearing caps.JPG

    The center ridge/gouge combo with my digital caliper indicates .028 to .032ths of difference from the surface of the journal. I can't tell if some of this is bearing material "welded" to the journal or not. There's also some rough areas off center. You catch your fingernail on 'em even through a 7mil nitrile glove--not smooth...

    So with the bearing caps--shouldn't I be able to see an oil groove across the whole cap? You can see where it used to be on the left...
    Also, it was pretty hard to turn the motor over by hand--even after the bearing caps were off. Yes, all 8 spark plugs were already removed.

    Seriously now--I realize the crank is probably shot--it's already been turned once (I don't know how much but at least .010 right?)
    If I clean the crank up with emory paper and replace the bearing caps I should be able to drive the thing a few hundrend miles...? Not looking to rip anybody off! But I would like someone to be able to test drive the 727 which only has a few thousand miles on a professional rebuild.
     
  15. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Yep looks like a bunch of friction welding was going on , Damn those IH cranks are tough !!! Pull your main cap down and see what it looks like (the burnt one)
    while your at it see if you can find one in decent shape (it will be marked if undersize) putting it back together even with spending many hours trying to clean up
    that crank ,In my opinion is a lesson in futility , It may last 100 miles maybe 1 minute
    I have seen some pretty bad looking cranks clean up at .020 Should be able to get undersized bearings to .060 ??
    Here is what a fresh one looks like ,
    20150703_122717 (1024x768).jpg no oil grooves on connecting rod bearings (just plain shells with lock tabs )
     
  16. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    image1.JPG image2.JPG

    Mine don't look fresh...
    I presume this is "normal" 60k wear? Fingernail test says the journal ain't smooth--covered in fine circumferential grooves.
    Damn shame--the crosshatching on the cylinder walls looks great...

    The main bearing says standard--so I guess it just needed a polish on the rebuild.
    Further forensics (my neighbor's back) suggests that there was so much metal trash in the oil pan that it blocked off the oil pump pickup--that's when my oil pressure dropped to zero...
    It looks like this engine would need at least two new connecting rods and probably a new crank. The upper half all looks good. Can anybody give me a swag on the cost of rebuilding this engine? Worth rebuilding this engine or look for another engine to rebuild?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
  17. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Cranks ,cut and ready to go can be had for less than a $300 bill , but so can a good used engine
    At 60k an IH SV engine assembled and serviced correctly should have so little wear it would be almost
    immeasurable. I am not a good person to ask on the cost of things ( although I love a deal)
    anything that costs me more than a few hundred bucks I try to forget about :1eye:
    Cost will boil down to how much you are willing/able to do yourself ,and how many shiny new parts you want .
    I would take a little break get more opinions ,weigh options etc. Lots of seasoned IH guys here
     
  18. Dennis Bernth

    Dennis Bernth Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    My concern would be where the 'junk' come from that plugged up the oil pump pickup to start with? If it was something like over use of RTV that might be understandable why it failed, but if it was plugged with metal n' junk, then something 'failed' before the oil pickup plugged. For some reason that journal seemed to be the only one affected, that indicates to me that flow was blocked to that area only. If there was a total loss of oil volume (and pressure) you'd have noticed that on the gauge. I think the engine had pre existing issues, if it was me I'd find a good runner, do seals, gaskets, core plugs and flush her out, and install. I've had good luck doing that, but YMMV depending on how many loose engines are in your area.
     
  19. SJR

    SJR Farmall Cub

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    RTV killed a Ford I had a long time ago. Oil pressure would go up and down, checked the oil level and it was good so i kept driving it thinking it was the gauge. Going about 60 when I heard a loud bang, then silence except for the squealing rear tire. Threw a rod right through the side of the block, glad i wasn't going around a curve. Someone had used RTV sealant as the oil pan gasket and had gotten a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" glob of it in the bottom front corner of the pan. Enough of it had come loose that it would block the oil pickup until oil sloshed around enough that it would clear it for awhile.
    Not that this is what happened to yours, just another RTV misuse use story.
    Sorry to here about your engine.
     
  20. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    No rtv on the oil pan gasket. No rtv in the oil pan.
    The rod bearing metal is for sure what temporarily blocked the pick up screen.

    I don't think oil flow can get stopped at the rod ends the way a spun cam bearing will block off flow to the rockers.
    But I'm not as intimate with the SV motor as I guess I'm gonna be...
     

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