Project Rusty AF - '74 Scout II

Discussion in 'Binder Builds' started by Dutch, Oct 16, 2019.


  1. TaylorMade

    TaylorMade Farmall Cub

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    MAAANNNN!! I'm so glad I found this post. I'm right behind you on my 79. That rear body crossmember you fabbed is effing awesome! I'm abouttabout order one from eBay for $166 free shipping. Or,I was... After fabbing it yourself, would you say it was worth saving the $$? Would you have changed anything? Also, what body part are the mounts for the crossmember located on (inner qtr, outer, taillight panel), or is it a separate piece all together {pic}?

    Thanks for all the info brother, I'll be following! What part of the world are you?

    Taylor
     

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  2. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Thank you for complement. Be warned though that I am a rank amateur compared to the talent on this board. I would suggest going through some other build threads too. There are some amazing threads, both old and new.

    I would be very cautious with any part you buy without seeing it in person. Even if you see it, it would be best if it were from the desert. I'd also be a little skeptical unless this part came out of a wrecked Scout. Meaning, if that part were good, I would think the rest of the truck was in good/salvageable shape.

    I wish I could give you the hours I have invested in that part. Working on it was mixed in with other things. Best guess is 10 hours all the way to epoxy. I also only use hand tools and I refer to myself as 'methodical'. Others would call me glacially slow. I enjoy fabbing these parts and also want to practice my TIG welding. I view it as tuition and it's better than running beads on coupons. Ask me again when I have some more slowly built parts, and my answer may change. Thinking about my butt-welded firewall brace, I am going to add a fishplate. Not sure why I didn't think of this before. Thankfully, I can do it while it is installed.

    If I could change anything, I would have bought a winning lottery ticket and invested in a nice sheet metal brake. Joking aside, that would make a lot of these parts super easy and would have eliminated a bunch of welding. I did move the mounting for the body bushing down to the 1/4" pad-- not through the floor like stock. I had planned on slipping a wrench in there through the side, but I quickly found out that this is not easy. So, I am going to drill a hole in the floor for access and cover it with a rubber plug.

    I don't know if I understand your question about multiple parts. The cross member runs straight left to right. It is bolted 6 places per side (from memory) to various brackets in the inner end cap. Mine is pretty rusted out, like yours, and I will be using pictures from here for reconstruction. From what I can tell, these brackets don't look too difficult to make.

    I am in the great Commonwealth of Virginia.
     
  3. TaylorMade

    TaylorMade Farmall Cub

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    Well, I thank you for all your documentation for sure! You have given me the confidence to tackle this project on my own. Your boy is really making me want to get a tig now though!

    I guess I should stop beinglbeing and need to tear down the rear a little more to find the other 3 bolts per side. It's just so damn hot down here in Texas this time of year!
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Just jump in and get after it. If I can do it you can too.

    I have never MIG'ed and done only minimal stick welding in my youth. I wanted to learn TIG and understand that it is the bees ankles for sheet metal. A torch is supposed to be knees, but that is well above my pay-grade. Because I am a hobbyist and am cheap, I narrowed it down to the AHP and Primeweld. I opted for the Primeweld due to the analog knobs (personal preference), pre- and post-flow adjustments, CK torch, 3-year warranty. When I bought mine a couple years ago, it came with a goofy foot pedal. It now comes with a proper rocker pedal. As a complete novice with nothing to compare it to, I like it. It hasn't let me down so far.

    I picked up a bunch of different filler rods at weldingsupply.com. They allow you to buy them by the pound, so you can figure out what you like. They were one of the few places that sell super thin rod-- I was going to use MIG wire before I found them. Their packaging is a little suspect though. Mine arrived with each flavor wrapped in that saran wrap packing and labeled. Then all the bundles were wrapped in more of that saran wrap. That's it. I would definitely order from them again in spite of this.
     
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  5. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Take two. Or, take zero depending on where you are sitting. I put the original frame back under her and it fits better. The back mounts might need a little lift. That is, if the rear quarter is supposed to be level across the top. The front/radiator mounts are spot on, as they were when I got her. My theory is that after almost 50 years, the body and frame sort of bend and twist in unison. Also, I have touched two bare frames and both had roughly the same drop in the driver, rear horn. It levels out when the weight of the body is on it. I will be listing the new-to-me frame for sale here and on craigslist, if anyone is in need. I really need the room.

    Holy shnikies, what a waste of time, energy, and money for nothing. The worst part is I pitched this to the family as a running, driving project, which it kinda was until I thought the frame was bent and ended up scrapping the drive train. I was going to get them hooked on the wind blowing through their hair and have them all excited to work on it. Instead, it looks like someone put a stick of dynamite into a Scout in my garage.

    Oh well... I am back to moving forward again. I was at a crossroads on what to work on next-- rockers or front, inner quarters. I started removing the driver's rocker and it was fighting me. Specifically, the front-most angled bracket on the A pillar. I drilled out the four rosette welds, but there seems to be petrified mud between it and the rocker. I may move to the inner quarters, if only to put all my sheet metal coupon welding practice into play in an area that won't be too visible if I turn it into dog poop.

    Does anyone have any tips for doing sheet metal plug welds with a TIG? I have searched a little and not found much. I did find one guy (Bob Moffet?) who put little clips of filler rod down in the hole before starting, but he was filling a pretty big hole in much thicker metal. I'd assume hot and fast, which is a recipe for blow through with my limited skills.
     
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  6. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    Not sure if you've seen his vids, but I highly recommend you watch a few. I posted a link in some other thread somewhere...

     
  7. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Thanks, TravelerMan. I have watched a few of his videos. His technique is very interesting. He and I are kindred spirits on using what you have to get things done. I'm not sure I'm ready to try the way he welds in patches-- with spot welding and cutting as he goes. Mainly because I have been practicing butt-welding with separate pieces and while not super proficient at it, that way is what I have done most. Jody at weldingtipsandtricks is one of my go-to's. In fact, when I stack enough pennies to afford it, I'm going to order a stubby gas lens kit through his site just to put some money in his pocket for making such great videos. He covers just about every process and material in a no nonsense way. Trev's blog is pretty good too. You just have to work the fast forward button a little to get to the white meat.
     
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  8. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    Going through your thread again, I see that your left rear quarter is angled outwards at the top just like mine. Not sure if it is build quality issue, or just due to body rot. Based on the diagram below it seems the opening dimension for the tailgate/liftgate should be 54.8".
    image.jpeg
    Mine measures 53.75" at the top, and 53.25" at the bottom along the top of the bumper. Something is not right, but at least my opening is square to the cargo bed floor on the PS, not so much on the DS.
    image.jpeg
     
  9. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Indeed. When I first fit my tailgate, the top gaps were much wider than the bottoms. I ended up squeezing the tops of the rear quarters together until my gaps were good using the new-to-me tailgate in its home. They do still need a little work because they are very slightly out of square measuring the diagonals-- I can't even tell against the tailgate. On mine, much of the lower structure behind the end caps is rotten, which I think is throwing me off a little. I will get a better look once I remove the rear quarters. Also, the nuts on my rear cross member are not welded yet, so I have a little room to fine tune there. I'm not sure if it's the right way, but I wanted to get the front cab mount and rockers rebuilt first and continue to sneak up on the correct alignment on the panels. I think I need the doors and all four quarter panels on the truck to do it.

    I don't have a picture and this might be hard to explain, but... there is a split seam in the upper corners of the hardtop where the liftgate (rear with glass) goes. On mine, the passenger seam was wider than the driver's, which made me think the hardtop had widened out a bit along with the top of the quarters. These seams are more equal now after squeezing them together. I just remembered you have a traveler (your username should have been a clue), so that wouldn't apply to you.

    I do have plans for a rollbar bolted through the floor and the rear cross member. I may try to tie it into the top of the rear quarters to lock in the angle and stiffen it up. I am pretty far from getting to that though.
     
  10. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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  11. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Thank you, sir. I also have this bookmarked. I imagine many are in our shoes-- there isn't a whole lot there to copy and you have to go by pictures. Scroll down for Scout II body mount cross sections.

    http://www.binderblues.com/main/techinfo.html

    I will be trying to combine many of these pieces to avoid as many lap joints as I can. I found the below. I am going down this path, but trying to turn it up to 11.

    https://anythingscout.com/collections/steel-body-parts/products/wedge-surefit-hd-scout-ii
     
  12. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    Yep got those pics as well, and just noticed them in my manual. Lol. If I were to buy a wedge it would be that one as well. But with the border still closed, and with the poor design anyways (IMHO) of the floor/body support, I'm going my own way. Optimally, a one piece from the firewall lip all the way to the cargo step. Ideally, some formed ribs would be added to stiffen this large flat area, but likely not possible for me using 16 ga. Then spot weld a hat section that incorporates the wedge shape to the underside of the floor. The floor itself would have the factory lips to mount to the center trans tunnel, kick plate, and firewall. A large cutout (perhaps formed) with a proper plug to access the body mount bolt. This of course is all in my head at the moment. Lol...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  13. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    I wanted to wait to post this until it was finished, but you guys might have some much-appreciated feedback on where I am going. This is my 1.5" long uni-rocker prototype. I am trying to combine the inner and outer rocker into one part so that there are no cavities to collect crud and rust.

    This is all .120 wall and I can get both rocker sides out of one piece. The orange tape is where the cuts are. I picked up enough metal for both rockers for about $65 locally.

    1x3 tube:
    Cab Mount I.jpg
    1x2 tube:
    Cab Mount II.jpg
    1.5x2 tube:
    Cab Mount III.jpg
    Rocker parts sitting where they will be welded.
    Cab Mount IV.jpg
    Cab Mount V.jpg
    It is "only" two full-pass welds, not counting the work to adjust the ends where the quarters sit (like stock). I purposely left the horizontal lip on the underside of "A" to help control warpage during welding and to add some lateral stiffness. It is going to make fitting my gussets a pain, but I don't think I can get a weld all the way in on a full gusset anyway. I am thinking of leaving the gusset short-- just between the horizontal parts and not all the way in. Or, I may do away with that lip. Also, I left the bottom of part "C" freakishly long. My thinking was that I don't have a lot of vertical steel to support the main plane of deflection. So, I want to make it longer than stock, but definitely shorter than this-- looks ridiculous. Gotta figure this out. Finally, I ended the inboard side of part "A" at the outboard side of the stock inner rocker. I believe that is where the floor starts to slope up to the trans tunnel. I can't really tell on mine because of rot, but that is what the pictures show.

    Now I am dealing with a couple of nuances. The stock rocker that relates to the vertical piece of part "A" is not truly vertical. It makes my little nub/kickout look much larger than stock. I figure it is more important to keep the dimensions correct on the upper-left corner of "A" (that meets the doglegs) and the nub on "B" (that forms the lower door gap). Also, the long part of "B" is not straight on the stock rocker. I don't think I am too worried about this.

    Next up is welding up this prototype and somehow trying to see if it matches the doors. I'm not convinced I will be able to tell much with a short rocker. I might just have to quadruple check it against the original and press on.

    Oh yeah, I was able to remove the driver's rocker. What a snotty $%@&* that was to get off. The good news is that my firewall brace (Hold My Beer 3.0) held the A pillar right where it's supposed to be even with the windshield and hardtop still on the truck. This is going to make it much easier to make repairs, I think.

    Oh oh yeah, metalsdepot.com has 1/8" x 4" x 24" hot-rolled in their drop section for $4 per piece. $11 shipping to me for 12 of them. I was going to use that for my uni-wedge and other stuff. Throwing that out there if anyone is in need.
     
  14. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    I think it's an interesting approach. I was just going to have some 14 ga bent locally that replicated the stock rocker and C channel. It's been way too long since I could do engineering calcs although it is not really complicated once you do a few. I feel a thinner material that is fully boxed will be inherently stiffer than a thicker material that isn't boxed. You'll still be collecting dirt, but yes, at least you can wash it off, if you are so inclined. My gut feeling is the stock design probably isn't as stiff as it should have been. The stamped curved pieces are critically important though in stiffening the entire structure between the A and B pillars. Those that cob up stuff for those pieces are playing with fire IMHO. Now that proper die stamped pieces are available, I would use them even though they are expensive.

    I'll recall a story about when NovaBus just north of Montreal decided to design and build their new Low Floor System (LFS) bus. They purchased a European designed and built bus from Belgium (IIRC) to base their design on. They hired an industrial designer, and to keep a modern new look, they decided that the windows would all be square. Nice clean flush look, similar to what autos were starting to do at the time. So they go ahead with that design and start building buses and they entire service. Well guess what. The welded tube structure started cracking at the corners of the windows! The bus from Belgium had windows that had curved gussets in all corners. Those curved gussets were/are critical to over rigidity and strength of the entire structure. Think back to the original GMC buses. All the windows have curved corners. In the end, they actually had to change the design to add the gussets, and retrofit existing buses. Sharp corners are inherent areas for stress concentrations. Even very small radii can significant reduce those stress concentrations, so keep that in mind in your metal fabbing projects.
     
  15. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    TravelerMan - Thank you for the comments. I totally agree that the structure of the rocker is super important on a convertible. However, I am pretty committed to not boxing the rockers again. Mine and others I have seen here were stuffed to the gills with dirt and rust chips. I view it as trading some strength for longevity. If mine proves too weak, I could still run an inner rocker, but I would want it to sit inboard enough to give me room to clean the area and not allow it to collect crud. This wouldn't be fully boxed, but pretty close.

    It seems the most effective way to strengthen the rocker is to have a roll cage that is connected to the floor at the A- and B-pillars. That said, I hadn't planned on doing a full cage. More to avoid having my mall crawler look like a mud bogger. One of the only times I would consider looks over function, though I am not dead set on that.

    Incidentally, I called two local fab shops to see if they could bend up my uni-rocker in 11 gauge. One said 'no'. The other wanted to see the part before they would say anything. All I have is my old rusty one and got tired of chasing my tail.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  16. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    First off, I'm a dummy. My "C" piece above was in the wrong way. Spin it around and the lower, vertical part is only 1/4" deeper than stock. Long day in the garage.

    Anyway, another one of my famous "almost completed" parts.

    This is my welding jig and template for cutting permanent ribs (probably a better word for it than gusset).
    IMG_1961.jpg
    Rocker tacked.
    IMG_1986.jpg IMG_1987.jpg IMG_1988.jpg IMG_1989.jpg
    And sitting pretty close to her home. All looks like it'll fit where it is supposed to.
    IMG_1995.jpg IMG_1993.jpg IMG_1994.jpg

    It seems like it will be strong enough, but if not I'll burn that bridge when I get there. This is all butt joints and .120" thick. No lap joints or cavities/nooks/crannies. 7 pieces of steel so far. I need one more piece to widen the extreme front to catch the lower, inner A pillar. I had to get a little creative with that jog just in front of the front dogleg. It does not look exactly like stock, but it does flow well and will be hidden.

    If anyone is interested in doing this be warned that this structural tube warps like crazy when you cut it. It seems like it is more than just the heat from cutting, which should shrink that area. Some of the parts banana'ed out in weird directions. I did the flange-stretch technique by whacking it with a baby sledge with an i-beam backer-- where I could. Where that didn't work, I resorted to spanning the piece across 2x4's and jumping up and down on it. "B" and "C" were pretty easy to deal with. "A" is a fighter, but removing the lower horizontal would make it easier. I like getting my butt kicked, so I left it.

    My last hurdle is to finish welding this without warping the bejeezus out of it. But first, I am going to build the passenger side rocker while I can easily lift measurements off this one and the nuances are fresh in my melon.
     
  17. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    That's an incredible amount of work. Looking good! What are your plans for welding it up? I'd be a bit worried about it warping during all that welding.
     
  18. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    It was a ton of work, but worth it, I think. The fitting and tacking was the easy part (and fun for me). I spent a lot of time straightening the pieces post cutting and stripping mill scale. In fact, I left two exposed surfaces in mill scale because I was fed up with doing it for now. The Walter Flex Cut I mentioned before is great and strips to bare metal in one pass, but the cutting patch is pretty small when dealing with such large parts. Also, this may sound crazy, but it is kinda hard to see where you are stripping. Example - if you make two passes and accidentally leave a little strip of mill scale between them, you can't really see where you are cutting on the already-stripped areas. I end up making 3-4 more passes trying to hit the little strip.

    On the welding, I was definitely going to add many more tacks hoping this would add more rigidity without adding a ton of heat. Beyond that, I am winging it, but loosely based on studying welding thin sheet metal. The consensus seems to be 'hot and fast'. I can handle hot. My skill level doesn't support fast, unless I do lay-wire. Some say back-stepping is the way to go. Others say to just rip through the entire weld as quickly as you can-- because stopping and starting continually heats and cools the piece, which is where you get warpage. I also have pulse on my welder that I have played with on 18 and 20 gauge sheet, which may help. If you or anyone else have any tips I would be grateful.

    There are a couple areas where I was tacking, had a nice looking puddle, and laid down an inch of weld. I couldn't help myself. It didn't seem to get too squirrelly with those, but we'll see.

    I forgot to mention... I have seen on here where guys used structural square tube for their rockers. Keeping the entire square as inner and outer rockers. They then cut off the lower, outer corner and welded in a flat piece to make the angled part of the rocker. That might be an idea for you if you have trouble getting one bent up. Though, I would recommend my "B" piece instead of flat bar to keep it more stock looking.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  19. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    I picked the straightest rocker pieces for the driver's side that I just tacked up-- procrastinating on the pain of the super warped ones. Not so surprisingly, the bananas were the parts that had the welded seam. I spent several hours trying to straighten "A" using the baby sledge/I-beam and jumping on it. It started being out about 1/2" and I was able to get it close after all that time, but couldn't get it perfectly straight. After rethinking some life choices and scratching my head, I remembered something I had read or otherwise seen somewhere on the internet-- a linear stretch die for a power hammer. I have a hammer (el cheapo from harbor freight) and I have some power in my arms, so I took a stab at it. I shaped the face of the hammer using a flap disc on my grinder. The lower drawing in the below is an exaggerated depiction of the profile looking down on the face. The upper drawing is the mark on the metal that striking it should leave.
    Linear Stretcher Small.jpg
    I put the flanges on my I-beam and gave it heck. After about 5 minutes, it was straight as an arrow. Remember this is .120 wall. In hindsight, I think I gave it too much heck (about as hard as driving a nail), as it left some slight bumps. They aren't glaring and will be inside the rocker or under the floor, but another lesson learned. I am pretty confident this rig will work for stretching flanges in sheet metal. Just need to give it many light taps instead of doing an impression of Thor.

    I believe Trev's Blog has episode on shrinking a sheet metal flange with tucks. He may even have an episode on stretching like I did. I'm certainly not smart enough to come up with that on my own. Saves quite a bit of coin over a shrinker/stretcher.
     
  20. TravelerMan79

    TravelerMan79 Farmall Cub

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    Glad to hear you were able to straighten things out.
     

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