Project Rusty AF - '74 Scout II

Discussion in 'Binder Builds' started by Dutch, Oct 16, 2019.


  1. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    I am a long-time lurker, but never posted before. This forum and the contributors are an amazing resource. I'm not sure how much I can add. Hopefully, it is more than comic relief.

    I had been looking for Scout project for a long time and finally found one (my first ever Scout). I bought it sight unseen from a good dude in Colorado. He was kind enough to send loads of pictures, a video, and answered all of my hundreds of questions. The name of the build is homage to him. In his ad, he described it as "Rusty AF".

    About the Scout:
    1974. 258 I-6. T-18. This was a one-owner Scout, bought new in Colorado, and lived its entire life there. The clock has been turned over multiple times. Engine and trans have been replaced multiple times. Other than that, this Scout is bone stock/original. It runs and drives, albeit a little rough. The body has a bunch of dents and is indeed rusty AF. Front cab mounts, front floors, rear corners of bed, fender lips, etc are all smoked. Thankfully, the tinworm seems to be confined to the lower 6" of the body. Hardtop, windshield frame, hood, and upper part of quarters are all solid.

    About me:
    I have been wrenching as a hobby since I was a kid, but have never done any bodywork. I am a wannabe metalshaper-- I have very rudimentary hand tools. I am also a wannabe TIG welder. As yet, I have only been practicing this witchcraft on coupons and scraps. I plan (hope?) to fabricate/repair what is there as much as I can instead of buying replacement panels.

    My long-term plan is predicated on whether shooting at a rabbit in the back yard results in black gold bubbling up from the ground. I am aiming for a stockish, mall crawler on the outside (is that what the cool kids call them?) with possible engine, trans, xfer case upgrades way down the road. I have no desire to climb any rocky mountains with a 45-year-old truck.

    Short-term plans, that I will hopefully complete before spring, are to rebuild the front cab mounts, rockers, floors, and patch the bed. Also, fluid changes, ignition tune up, carb rebuild, brakes. Essentially, just make it more drivable and safe so I can cruise with the wife and kids, and, with any luck, they will have fun in it and stop telling me that I am going through a midlife crisis.

    I know, I know. Pictures or it didn't happen.

    Scout.jpg
     
  2. 77GlacierBlue

    77GlacierBlue Farmall Cub

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    Looks good but it looks like you got it wet. No point in fixing all that rust if you're just going to keep getting it wet :shifty:. I recently did similar rust repair (mounts, rockers, floors, quarter panel patches, etc) and it was a lot of fun. Enjoy it. More than likely your wife and kids will still make fun of you even after you've completed the restoration, ask me how I know :beer:.
     
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  3. rotten

    rotten Farmall Cub

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    Welcome and good luck. I'll be watching and learning.
     
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  4. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    It was pouring rain when the transport guys dropped it off. The holes in the floor made it so the inside was actually wetter than the outside.
    So, I am putting together my plan of attack on the front mounts/floor, though I have a bit of time before I am able to dig in. From all of my studying, it seems that anytime there is a metal-air-metal sammich on a car, a rust factory is produced. This includes lap welds-- epoxy primer and/or weld-through primer may help, but I would assume some of this is burned off. Enclosed cavities like the bottom of the A-pillar/toe kick area-- even if it is totally sealed, I think some moisture/humidity is trapped in there and rears its head with temperature changes. For these, I would think having a drain hole at the bottom and an air vent hole at the top would be beneficial to allow the moisture to equalize. Open cavities like the inner/outer rocker combo catch mud and hold moisture. If I am ripping all of the stuff out, I am thinking of ways I can eliminate these cavities with the replacement parts. I'm posting this in advance with hopes that more experienced can poke holes in my plan.
    The executive summary is that I want to create a "uni rocker" that condenses the inner rocker, outer rocker, and finished floor (the part that would normally sit on top via lap weld) into one panel/piece. Same for the wedge, cab mount, and finished floor over the "uni wedge". The uni wedge and two floor braces would create a ladder look. The open rectangles between these would be filled in with sheet metal that ends at these parts and is butt welded. Said another way, the tops of these parts are the finished floor.
    Looking at this link (scroll down for SII) and using my exemplary CAD skills, here is the direction I am heading.
    http://www.binderblues.com/main/techinfo.html
    Uni Rocker Profile:
    Uni Rocker Profile.jpg
    This would be bent/curved out of sheet steel.
    (A) - Simulates the factory pinch weld and gives me vertical steel for deflection.
    (B) - Same on deflection. Maybe I can bend this up and use it for the weather stripping? Weld on a "T" so it goes up and down?
    Uni Wedge:
    Wedge Cabmount Combo.jpg
    This is the front view. I was thinking of using rectangular tube and cutting this out to be an upside-down "U" shape.
    (A) - Connects to trans tunnel spine.
    (B) - Cab mount bolt. I was going to fab tubes into the bolt sleeve here to recess the bolt slightly into the floor, make it vertical, and make a base to rest on the body bushing.
    (C) - Profiled to match the inside of the Uni Rocker for welding. Also acts as a gusset to keep the shape of the rocker.
    Same deal, the top of this part is the finished floor. The upper-front edge of it is where I would butt weld the front of the floor that angles up. The other two left-right floor braces would be very similar to this, but smaller.
    I'm still working through what gauge metal to use. I was thinking of adding together the thicknesses of all of the factory parts that I am condensing and rounding down to the next gauge (thicker). It won't be exact or perfect as the shape of my parts are different. I am trying to stay away from overdoing the gauge for cost, added weight, and difficulty in working it.
    Any and all opinions are welcome. Crackpot or genius?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  5. Zach Andersson

    Zach Andersson Farmall Cub

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    Love this thread, as this used to be my Scout....well rather my mother's Scout and then mine once I turned 16. I came home from the hospital in this now RUSTY AF beauty in 1975 ;-)
    Here's few pics of it when it was new:
    Spring 1974
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    20 years later in 1994 before a trip down an epic canyon road in Utah (mineral bottom)
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. 77GlacierBlue

    77GlacierBlue Farmall Cub

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    That's really cool. I wish I had that kind of history on my Scout. All I know comes from the things I've found during restoration (mostly various shell casings :gun_bandana:).
     
  7. Jrc55

    Jrc55 Farmall Cub

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    Welcome to the scout rehab!
     
  8. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Zach - Thank you very much for posting and sending those pictures. That was a very nice surprise. My doubtful wife even said, "now, that is pretty cool."
    Thank you all for the welcomes. I have read all of your build threads at least 5 times. That is some great work and an inspiration.
    She has been fighting me, but I am not deterred. There has been a lot of disassembly, cussing, vacuuming up rust chips, and assessing.
    First, a rust montage:
    Pass Rocker II.jpg
    Pass Rocker.jpg
    Driv Bed Back.jpg Pass Bed Back.jpg Wedge.jpg
    I have about 4 hours in just removing the 6 body bolts that were there. The rear frame X member was pushed into the tank. The tank is dented, but doesn't seem to leak with the current amount of fuel in it. The wet stuff is PB Blast. I had to break out the can opener to access the nuts on the J-hooks. Put this item on the "fab/replace" list.
    Rear Frame X Member.jpg
    My goal now is getting the body straight enough that the doors and quarters are pretty close to in line, so I can brace them up. Here's what I have:
    * Front/radiator body mounts - Old bushings, but solid mounting on top and bottom. Driver's side bolt removed. Passenger loosened.
    * Driver side floor/wedge - There was a PO floor patch done. Inner rockers look like they were replaced too. Wedge looks like it was never put back-- nothing there.
    * Pass floor/wedge - Appears to be all original. Rusty AF, but enough structure in the rocker to hold the A- and B-pillars. Wedge is pictured above, and not holding anything.
    * Bed step-up mounts - Rust through on the brace, but outboard of the mounts. Old bushings. Mating surfaces seem solid. Driver's bolt removed. Passenger loosened.
    * Rear mounts - pictured above. Effectively non-existent. But, this area doesn't seem too far away from where it should be. Maybe a little low. Also, the tie-in between the rear body X member and the back corner of the quarters are smoked. Lifting the rear floor doesn't really move the quarters until I go up 2" or so. At that point, she starts to make strange noises around the hardtop. I did a double bolt-ectomy on the body mount bolts back here.
    * I'm told the hardtop has never been taken off.
    I have been focusing on the driver side, as the passenger door is taco'ed and that side seems stock enough to act as my guide. When I got her, the driver's front quarter to door was/is good-- straightish across the top with a good gap at the hinge side. However, the back of the door (to rear quarter) sat about 0.75"-1" low. In cutting out about 1/3 of the floor patch, the door now only sits about 0.25"-0.5" low. I tried gently jacking up the bed floor at the tailgate to pivot the front of the rear quarter down-- no joy. I also tried jacking up the rocker toward the front and the back-- still no joy. All of these actions made it seem like everything was locked in and moving together. Measuring the door opening and windshield frame/rear quarter jives with what I have seen here. My best guess is that the driver door was removed for the previous rocker/floor replacement and these new parts threw it out of whack.
    I'm thinking of bracing what I can on the body to the garage floor, removing the floor patch completely first, rocker second, then trying to get the door and quarters in line for bracing. After that, I can put in new poly bushings and start replacing the bad.
    Does this seem like a good plan? I am nervous that the whole truck might come crashing to the ground with a rust-dust mushroom cloud that would be seen for miles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  9. 77GlacierBlue

    77GlacierBlue Farmall Cub

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    Sounds like a plan. It made me laugh when you said "vacuuming up rust chips". There will be a lot more rust where that came from so don't get it too clean. :dig:
     
  10. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Very true. I have been plugging away with more disassembly and think I have a good handle on where all the rust is. Fingers crossed.
    I am one rusted bolt away from freeing my rear body cross member from her grip. I believe the Blair Spot Weld Cutter has been mentioned here before. But, I have to add that it is absolutely amazing. I got the 11096, which has a spring-loaded drill bit center that keeps it from walking. I read that lube is recommended, so I ordered a 16 oz tube of Slick Stik in lieu of the 1.something oz Blair lube. The hardest part was discerning spot welds from rust pitting on the back of the bed-- I have a couple swings-and-misses to prove it. I found that a wire wheel on an angle grinder didn't really show them well. 60-grit sandpaper by hand highlighted the dimples pretty well. Otherwise, minimal drama on this.
    On the door alignment... I did a lot of head scratching, reading here, soul searching, etc. Most of this has been said elsewhere, but in different places. This is what worked for me along with the body bolt situation outlined above:
    * Loosened driver's side radiator mount bolts. Removed passenger side rad bolts.
    * Tried to remove the steering joint (where the rag joint should be, mine is a cobbled u-joint), but she won that battle. Still attached.
    * Removed the lower, vertical clutch linkage joint. Just a cotter pin and a pin. This is what I had not done before and, I think, the cause of the entire body and frame moving up when jacking the rockers before.
    * Removed fuel tank - Mine was likely a rare case where the bent frame cross member could have been catching on the tank (body-to-frame grabbing).
    * Removed a couple of random muffler hangers that were screwed through the frame. Left the ones connected to the body. Again, rare case. From the receipts given to me by Zach, I know that this was done by Midas. Shame on you, Midas.
    * While my gaps on the hinge side of the doors were probably a 6 out of 10, I took the time to get them much better than that. Passenger side is as good as I am going to get it (I'll call it a '10' in my mind). Driver's side needs to move straight up 1/16" to 1/8"-- pretty tricky working by myself.
    With those done, I proceeded to jack up the rockers under the A-pillars. Here is what magically happened:
    Pass Door Align.JPG
    I lost 30 minutes of working time as I strutted around the garage with my arms raised in a "V". I didn't measure, but I'd guess both doors were about 1" low on the striker side after fine tuning the hinge side. I raised the A pillar probably 3-4" to make up this 1". She looks like a proud monster truck now that her slouch is gone.
    I would highly recommend trying a bunch of different things to get the doors aligned before firing up the cutting tools or removing the hardtop. From what I've read, things can go sideways pretty quickly once you start removing that much structure. Also, my driver's inner rocker is solid. Before, I thought that the rocker wouldn't have enough 'give' to make up the amount of rise I needed. i.e. that the rocker was stiff enough to raise the whole side of the truck when jacking the front of it. I was wrong... mine quickly shifted just how I needed it to when jacking the A pillar (after I disconnected every frame-to-body link, except for two pass side body bolts that are loosened).
    Now I have a pile of new sheet steel and a couple of paths to take. I need to brace the door openings and I might run jack-stud 2x4's from the door braces to the garage floor. With no rockers or front cab mounts, I'm worried she will taco again. Then on to rockers and floor. I also need to rebuild the rear frame cross member and the outer thirds of the rear body cross member. Her butt is sagging a little bit now. My step-up center brace also needs attention. Note to self: Don't write out what needs to be done...
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  11. 3Duckdaddy

    3Duckdaddy Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for adding pics. It looks like you have a great plan laid out. Could you do me a favor and take pictures of how you have things braced right now? I just got a project Scout and am in the same boat. I haven't started tearing into it yet and would just like to formulate a plan.
     
  12. supercrouton

    supercrouton Farmall Cub

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    Welcome to the wild, wild world of Scout II rust repair :cowboy: Your wedge (on the red can) looks a lot like mine did; more air than original steel. Once you get a good start on the rust repair, it gets much easier. But it is intimidating if it's your first time fighting this much rust. Good luck to you, and we will be looking forward to your progress.
     
  13. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    Thanks, Supercrouton. I have read your build multiple times too (3 years of searching for a Scout leaves a lot of time to covet). Very nice work. It is my first time taking on a project like this. I have been through all of the "Stages of Scout Grief", but have been riding on "acceptance" for the most part.
    3Duck, good luck on your truck. I joke a lot on it, but it hasn't been too bad yet. It is nice that these are relatively straightforward. Here is what is holding my body up:
    * Body mounts by radiator - solid mountings, old bushings.
    * Front cab mounts/A-pillar/vertical line of windshield - This is where I jacked the rockers on both sides until the striker side of the doors were flush. 3-4" for me and I still have a little fine tuning to do. Held up on both sides by jack stands under the front of the rockers. If you don't have enough metal down there to hold up the truck, I'd assume a more intricate bracing/jacking system would be needed. Note that I didn't really use the gap between the bottom of the door and the rocker as a guide. Too much rust and too many dents. I am pretty sure that the striker side will tell the tale. Jack is just sitting there. Jack stand is in the darkness.
    A Pillar Jack.JPG
    * Step-up body mounts/just in front of the rear wheels - solid mountings/old bushings.
    * Rear tailgate area - I jacked up the rear slightly. Then rammed 2x6 wood between the frame and the bed cross member that is near the front of the (now removed) gas tank.
    Bed 2 x 6.JPG
    I did this to give me a little room to remove/repair the rear frame cross member and the rear bed cross member. Both are smoked and are the foundation of the back body mounts.
    Rear Body X Member.JPG
    My idea on the rear was to get good mountings for these bushings before moving on. Getting the body cross member out with the quarters and endcaps on was ridiculously difficult even with the right 25% of it rotted away. And, I still can't really reach the top welds on the frame cross member. I would not recommend this order of doing it. I am trying to put off removing the hardtop and quarters as long as I can.
    As far as door bracing, I am still in the head-scratching phase as I jockey for garage time. Also, keep in mind that I am not a pro and am going off of what I read here and elsewhere. I have 1x1x0.065 square tube and silicon bronze TIG rod at the ready. I was going to braze these in with hopes that it won't deform the good areas on the body where I am attaching them. I plan to put the bracing far enough inboard to be able to leave the doors on for as much of the surgery as I can. Or, at least have the ability to install the doors to check for fit as I work. Armrests, handles, and door cards are removed from the cab side of the doors. My initial layup looked like I can mount the braces flush on the inboard side of the weatherstrip lip. I was going to do a horizontal brace across the door opening just below the dash and dodging all of the things poking through the door. Then I'll run some 45 degree braces from the horizontal brace down to the same lip. These 45's will only be 16" long or so, because I do all of my metal shopping in the drop section of my Metal Mart. It is a delicate blend of me being cheap and metal off the shelf being so expensive. I may join each door's braces together horizontally and brace them to the garage floor with 2x4 wood. I'll post up a picture when I get it done. I'm still a little worried about what is going to happen when I remove the A-pillar jack stands and cut the rockers out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  14. 3Duckdaddy

    3Duckdaddy Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the great description. That helps a lot. I still haven't picked up my Scout yet. I'm making room and doing some repairs on the shop. I'll let you know how it goes. Keep up the good work and pictures are always appreciated.
     
  15. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    I ordered up some body mount bolts and have bushings in hand. My goal is to install new body bushings (where I can) and get the door gaps/body lines 100% before bracing the doors and removing/replacing the rockers, front cab mounts, and cab floors. My gap between the door and the B-pillar tells me that the rear body is too low, so I have been working on the back mounts and structure. I fabbed up a rear frame cross member (70% complete). I'll post pictures of how I did that later. I placed it on the rear frame and stepped back expecting to start a celebratory moonwalk as I admired my work. Instead, my faced dropped as I could plainly see that this piece is angled down about 3/4" on the drivers side. I pulled out a tape measure for some rough measurements. Sure enough, my frame on the driver's side is bent down just after the rear axle relative to the passenger side (which I don't know to be straight either). My guess is the area in question is the different colored surface rust (V shape) that can be seen in my picture above with the 2x6 wood. I probably should have guessed this given the state of the rear bumper and frame cross member. Nonetheless, it is a major gut punch.
    I called 10 local frame shops. 8 wouldn't touch it. 2 would look at it, but it wouldn't be until January and the guess of cost is $500-$800. Not a great option from a cost perspective, but I like the idea of keeping the truck in as few pieces as possible. Conversely, I found a new-to-me frame online for $300 and an entire parts Scout (unknown frame condition, sheet metal makes mine look mint) for a little more. It would be nice to restore and paint the new frame while it is bare, then remove, restore, and place parts from the old chassis to the new as I get them done. However, I will likely be forced to sleep in the garage if the wife can't park in there. Also, I have a nasty HOA who would certainly disapprove of International yard art. Somewhere in my internet searching years ago, I thought I found an outfit that remade Scout frames new. However, I can't find it now. If I am going through the effort, this might not be a bad option.
    So, like I used to do with my high school book reports, I am going to put off the frame issue for now. My plan is to block and shim on top of the rear frame to where it should be so I can build a new rear body cross member/sill and have it sit where it should. Then soldier on with bodywork.
    Questions:
    - Short of a gallon of gas and a match, does this seem like the next best idea?
    - Does anyone know if the service manual (CTS2304) gives accurate enough frame measurements for me to pull this off?
    - Can anyone tell me the height difference between the horizontal frame under the front seats and the rear extensions? Are the rear extensions level to the ground/parallel to the frame under the front seats? I found the below, but these are a bit rudimentary and the text does not mention the rear extensions. Worst case, I think I can get close from the picture.
    http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?attachments/scout-ii-frame-height-jpg.43823/
    http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/scout-ii-frame-dimensions.66164/
    - I have been focusing on door gaps and the distance between the garage floor and the faint body lines near the top of the quarters as my guides. Is this the best way to make sure my elevations are correct? i.e. are the body lines level to the ground and parallel to the frame? Might be a dumb question.
    Thank you very much for any opinions and guidance.
    Incidentally, I am not a huge fan of the Energy Suspension Body Bushings 6.4101G. All of the supplied washers are 7/16" inner diameter. Stock, some of the body bolts are 7/16" and some are 1/2". I had loosely planned on converting them all to 1/2" if it were easy. Even going with stock bolts means drilling out some of their washers and losing the zinc coating there. Finding new washers like that (grade 8, zinc) has been impossible so far. The closest I found is Fastenal 33228 and 11101281, but these are low-carbon. So, I am going to drill out all of the Energy washers, I think.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  16. Dutch

    Dutch Farmall Cub

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    I did a lot of thinking on it and since this is my first attempt at such a big project, I decided to buy a new-to-me frame. I figure I need to get the old girl on terra firma if I am going to have any chance of getting this thing back together straight. A visit to Brendan at ihscout.com and a bunch of help from my pops, and the frame is in the garage. The new one has deeper rust pitting than my current one, but it looks to be straight. He is a good guy with a lot of stuff. Right next to the frame he had two doors and a tailgate that were in pretty good shape. Both the outside and door cards were an exact color match to mine. It was all I could do to keep from spending thousands of dollars there, so I didn't buy those. I started regretting that decision as soon as we hit the end of Brendan's driveway.

    My initial plan was to use Eastwood internal frame coating and SPI epoxy primer on the outside, which would have been a ton of work and quite a bit of money on materials. I have been studying like crazy and have decided to hot-dip galvanize the new frame. There is a place right near me that will do it for $250, which is their minimum for 600 lbs. This includes a couple of cleaning dips (acid and/or base, I can't remember) that eats all of the rust inside, outside, nooks, and crannies. My one sticking point is how to paint it after the zinc-- smart people call it a duplex system. Below is one of the guys that swears by it. He also recommends Anchor paints. A quick call to Anchor did not instill a huge amount of confidence that this was the right product though. From what I can tell this poster is somewhat local to me and used the same galvanizer, albeit 15 years ago.

    Long post, but you can ctrl-find "galvanize" on it.
    http://www.einstyn.com/einstyn-hardtop-02.htm

    https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-body-shop/97067-galvanized-frame-phase-2-pics.html
    https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-body-shop/96218-galvanized-my-67-frame-pics.html

    The other rub is that the motor mounts don't match my I-6. I'd love to just go straight to the engine/trans swap so I am not hacking up and welding on a newly galvanized frame, but that would require me selling a kidney. So, before galvanizing I think I am going to move the springs and axles over, then move the tub over and continue working on the rust. This is at least somewhat inexpensive and will keep me out of trouble for a little while. I am hoping that doing bodywork on a frame without an engine will not throw off my lines later.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  17. 3Duckdaddy

    3Duckdaddy Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the info. I just looked into galvanizing in my area. I'm in central Illinois and AZZ galvanizing in Peoria will do a frame for $306. Talked with the salesman Ryan and he says they have done frames before and it would take about a week. AZZ.com has a list of places around the country. I'm really thinking this is the way to go. Paint afterward and the frame will be around forever.
     
  18. patrick r

    patrick r Binder Driver

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    Painting over galvanized metal is tricky. Consult with experts (I’m not one) before doing it. The last thing you want is for it to fail in a few years. The same with welding it.


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  19. winchested

    winchested Y-Block King

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    Ya if you weld on it after it has to be coated with a cold galv zinc spray paint.

    Joe Torres had his galvanized right?
     
  20. patrick r

    patrick r Binder Driver

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    There are respiratory concerns when welding galvanized steel.


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