MiniBuild 18 ~ Putting Scout II axles on an 800

Discussion in 'D and C Extreme' started by Damian Grihalva, Oct 26, 2008.


  1. OK Damian,

    I know it's been awhile, but I just bought my house and now have the space to start working on this scout. I'm getting ready to go and get my axles and transmission and am even considering an Atlas transfer case at the moment.

    I'm basing my life off of the following example from your web page.

    # 35" Tire = SOA w/ 2" lift springs (no rubbing - axle upgrades recommended)

    # 36" Tire = SOA w/ 2.5" lift springs (no rubbing - axle upgrades recommended)

    I will most likely go with the 36" What type of axle upgrade do you recommend for this? Part of me wants to just drive this to the springs and have DandC take to it. I will be lifting off the body and pulling the engine and drive train. So maybe if you wanted to give me an offer before I hack it apart :)
     
  2. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Congrats on the house man. Very cool. My wife is wondering when she can park in the garage, and lets just say that its 'my' domain there!

    Currently I'm not taking any more projects, but I'm here to help where I can.

    For 36s, and to keep it cheap, I'd stay with Scout II Dana44s. Sure, you can go bigger, but at what cost? Are you really going to beat it so hard that Dana44s won't last? Probably not. I'd seriously go with Scout II axles, and alloy shafts. I'd build it just like we did AJ (project 1 on our site). It's probably the best build (staying SOA) for a daily driver and weekend wheeler. Just make sure you gears properly, as far as lockers and ratio. 36s will be fine with a little trimming.
     
  3. ARMed

    ARMed Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for this post! I have a 1974 Scout II that I plan on swapping the d44axles, and braking system out of to put in my 1963 Scout 80.
    I have a couple questions:
    ~Did you use the 800's stock drive shaft for this swap, and can I use my Scout 80's stock drive shafts as well?
    ~Front axle angle... is this found just like the rear axle angle (equal but opposite the t-case yoke)?
    ~Finally, the 1974 Scout II that I will be taking the axles from has a factory "offset" or block between perch and axle for driveability, I think? does this need to be transfered as well?
    Thanks again for this post and the detailed pics. It has given me a good idea of what is involved for this swap. I have limited experience with suspensions and axles, so this helps alot....
     
  4. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Glad you find this post helpful.

    If they work, use them, but count on having to have them lengthened/shortened to fit your application.

    I personally do not use the stock shafts. The slip on them is normally EXCEEDINGLY short and worn out. It will be possible to over-extend/compress them if you're not careful. A NEW standard (non-cv) shaft should be about or under $200 each, so it may be a good idea just to figure that into the equation.

    Technically Correct.

    With shafts you can get away with up to 7* difference without technically feeling any vibrations. Since your T-case yoke should have a 3* angle to it, I recommend putting your FRONT axle yoke at 0* (or horizontal, if not a little higher) to help with clearance or at least easy the joint angle due to the front shaft being so much shorter than the rear. If don't correctly, you will not have vibrations.

    Yes, but it will go on the drivers side front perch. Why? Because the passenger side perch will be welded to the top of the housing. This will put it higher than the driver side. Using the shim on the driver side should (then) equalize the Scout and you shouldn't have any 'scout lean'.

    You may need to double then up or put another shim on the rear driver perch to fully equalize the Scout and make it sit level.

    That's what its here for. I understand that many Scouters don't have the funds to send their scouts to me for work, but with a little time and patience, you can do it on your own. Glad it helped and hopefully it'll help others as well.
     
  5. egdinger

    egdinger Farmall Cub

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    Damian what brake lines do you use when you do this swap?
     
  6. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Scout II stuff.
     
  7. Nevada S. Smith

    Nevada S. Smith Farmall Cub

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    Damian, good thread-lot's of info. I have a 66' 800 that has a fubar SOA done by PO. I have a parts rig 77' terra that is trashed, but has matching front and rear scout II D44's. I'm interested in doing this swap as well, but staying SUA with 31" tires. I want to know if you use the scout II springs with the D44's our do you use the 800 springs? I plan on buying 2.5" or 4" lift, just need to know if I need SII or CJ5 springs. This rig will be used for daily driving and mild off-roading.
    Thanks,
    Nevada
     
  8. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    I'm glad that you like this thread, and have found it useful. Truly, that's why I took the time to put it together, I just wish there were more photos.

    Now, to make sure I make this next point as clearly as I possibly can. I will say:

    I would sooner put MACK TRUCK springs on a Scout 800 than Scout II springs. DO NOT DO IT ~ unless, of course, you are planning on road-racing the thing. Seriously. Scout II springs are too long, too stiff and NOT WORTH IT.

    I have had conversations with 'guys' who were contemplating this on their rigs. I advised against it, but they had heard 'so many' successful stories (from the vendor who sells such a kit) that they couldn't resist. It was a "sure thing". After TENS of THOUSANDS purred into the rig, they SOLD it because it just wasn't what they wanted. Road too stiff, wasn't what they wanted.

    Honestly. I can't stress it enough.
    DO NOT DO IT!

    Now. Here are my long-held reasons for NOT putting Scout II springs on a Scout 800.

    1) They are too long. Too long means that you have to replace BOTH of the spring mounts. And in order to keep your wheel base at 100 inches, you will need to move BOTH mounts at each end of the spring to keep it. This may mean lengthen the front of the frame forward, and the rear frame backwards. (Strike one) I dont' mean to be rude, but take a look at what guys do when they lengthen the frame. RARELY do you see it tastefully done. Normally, its a hack job. (strike two)

    Think about this for a second. 800s are short, the springs are short. If you put LONGER springs on, where does the center pin go if you don't move the shackle hangers fore/aft of their current location? Seriously. Unless you are prepared to lengthen your frame, you're wheel base will get shorter.

    So now you've lengthened the frame, you still have no better wheelbase, which is why *I* lengthen the frame. So why did you do it?

    Now, thing about what happens to the springs frame mount. (meaning the solid mount where the shackle isn't). What MUST you do to keep your 100" wheel base? That's right, you have to move it toward the middle of the vehicle. What does that do? It puts it on lower on the slope of the frame ~ what does that do? Give you more lift. Why is that bad? How much more will the back springs be on the 'hump' than the front? So you'll get uneven lift. My money is that the rear will be higher than the front. Cool, if your a hot rodder! (Strike three).

    "Now that's all I'm going to say about that."

    The second reason, and perhaps just as colossally terrible as the first reason, is that Scout II springs are stiffer. So what does that mean. Well:

    1) Your ride will be stiff.
    2) Your flex will be severely compromised.
    3) Your lift will be more than you wanted.

    When I say it'll be stiff, let me help you understand. SCOUT IIs ARE HEAVY. They're longer, they've got more 'ammedities', they've got more sheet-metal. Therefore, the springs have a heavier spring rate to make up for that.

    Now put those springs on a Scout 80/800 and what will you get? A stiff bouncy ride that even a reverse shackle will not smooth out.

    WHY DO PEOPLE DO IT:
    Two reasons come to mind.
    1) Springs that are longer and wider normally flex better or hold up to abuse more. While this is true, you have to take a good look at spring rates. Scout II springs are only 1/4" wider. Seriously, not doing much there. Longer yes, but the rate is SO much more its inherently a really stiff spring, and Scout 800s just don't have the weight to soften them at all.

    Second, you think that you can use the stock spring mounts, which means you think your saving work. Think again. With all the FAB work you need to mount the springs to the frame, I HIGHLY doubt your in the positive, besides ~ you'll have to get more caster anyway...how are ya going to do that? Presto, you're savings on 'work' has just been obliterated.

    ALSO ~ DO NOT USE JEEP SPRINGS ON SCOUTS! For some reason we have let ourselves be told that the early 70s CJ springs will work on Scout 800s, after all they are the same width, and within reason of the same length (like +/- 1/2"). BUT THEY ARE THE WRONG SPRING RATE. Jeeps are LIGHT, and I'd hate to break it to you, but SCOUTS ARE HEAVY! One guy once joked that IH really stands for "ITS HEAVY" ~ and he was right!

    So for the exact same reason you shouldn't use Scout II springs, you shouldn't use Jeep springs. Besides that, take a look at a jeep, notice how their butt is always low? Now add a SCOUT butt and see what happens. Now your not a hot-rodder, your a gangster hoodlum. Might as well paint the car candy green apple, get some wire rims, and let the sparks fly!

    Seriously. So the next question is 'what would you do Dam?' ~ 2 options in the 'Dom' catagory.

    1) Not surprisingly, the same thing I always done. Call Mr. Scout and get a set of his 2.5" Scout 800 springs. They're not that expensive and do the job with AWESOMENESS! They flex well, they last decent, they do what you want. No changing spring mounts, no lengthening your frame, no dealing with a stiff ride. Done.

    2) If you really want to make sure you're done buying springs. Go get a set made. I personally use Alcan for custom springs, but there are several aftermarket manufacturers available. I use Alcan because they've done me right AND (most importantly) they are an off-road specialty manufacturer. Which means, they know how the make things flex.

    They will build you springs to a Scout 800 length, Scout 800 spring rate, and ANY WIDTH YOU WANT~ so if you want a set of springs that are 2.25 or 2.5 or even 3" wide! So be it. Also, they have ways of making springs resist axle wrap, or they can give you Military Wrap springs, and they can make them with more (but thinner) leafs for ride quality...and just about anything else....And get this folks, they'll do it FOR NOT ADDTIONAL COST. However, the drawback, the cost is about $800 a set, which is about $150-200 more than Mr. Scout will get ya for a set.

    Of course there is one more option, and that's ditch the leaf springs and go with our XLC conversion, but lets be honest ~ that would negate any reason for upgrading your suspension later...and what's a scout, if its not in a constant state of 'perpetual building'.:hammer:


    Okay, lets recap.
    a) DO NOT USE SCOUT II SPRINGS.
    b) DO NOT USE JEEP SPRINGS.
    c) For mild lift, you can use Mr.Scout springs as they are good quality and I've used them with great results...in fact, you see them in this very build. Combine these with lift shackles, and 6* caster shims and you'll be golden fir 31s, possibly 32 or 33s.

    d) But by far the best thing to do, is to get yourself some Alcan springs, custom built. Then you can get:
    - MULTIPLE THINNER leaf packs (giving you the lift without stiffness)
    - wider springs, (giving you flex)
    - the half-main upper leaf (to control axle wrap)
    - Military wrap (to give more strength and the ability to limp home if you do break a spring)

    So ask yourself, what's REALLY your budget. Then point, and shoot.

    ~ OH you can also use stock springs, but SOA for 33-34" tires.
     
  9. stu simpson

    stu simpson High Wheeler

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    Plus, Alcan can build caster into their springs. Go ahead and do the 2" width. You may want to mock it all up with your stock 800 springs in order to get close and tell them what you need. 6* seems to be the usual. If you are off a little 1* or 2* can't kill you to adjust. You will have to have your front half and rear half weighed for them to dial in the rate.

    Grendel_Cave just had Alcan make him a set. He seems very happy.

    Count on around a grand for the springs, delivered, and another 500 for the rest of it. That is if it is going to be SUA. Do yourself a favor and leave the D44F SII axle alone and move the hangers in in the front. You get to keep your stock sway bar that way too.

    Damian is right you do not save a dime by doing a half-*** butcher job using SII springs. Lots of folks like to do it and I can't understand why. I drove around in an 800 with SII fronts both front and back and it would have been more comfortable sitting on top the rear pumpkin of a cab/chassis Lodestar going over cobblestones. Brutal.
     
    scout2000 likes this.
  10. Nevada S. Smith

    Nevada S. Smith Farmall Cub

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    I should clarify, I wasn't set on using SII springs, I couldn't tell from the thread which springs were being used in the examples given. Sorry for the confusion. As for the D44F, a PO attempted a SOA and totally screwed the stock steering and or front axle(D27). Both front and rear perchs are same size and the front is sagging, giving the scout that funky late 70's raked look. I only have a 4 banger and If I could figure out a way to fix the front end issues on the cheap and without hassle, I would. I'm only considering the SII D44's, because it's what I have on hand. I have the scout II mc and all I am looking at buying is brake lines, springs, new u-bolts, shocks, and maybe TRE's and ball joints. Thanks for all the good info and suggestions, I'm still researching the options and what will be the best/safest and affordable set-up for my needs and I am always open for advice/feedback. I want this done right the first time and am wading thru the fast amounts of info/opinions in the forums and forming a solid plan of attack, instead of just hacking a bunch of junk together.
    Thanks,
    Nevada
     
  11. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Personally I would think that re-doing the SOA on Scout II axle would be cheapest but take the money labor.

    However, getting a Mr. Scout lift kit, and then putting the Scout II axles under it in SUA (stock) form with the instructions given in this post would also be quick and easy. Just make sure you get 6* caster shims, new bushings and lift shackles. You should be able to get the whole lift kit for under $1000 including the springs, shocks, u-bolts, shackles and shims. That's exactly what this lift had and you can see the results.
     
  12. tubolove

    tubolove Farmall Cub

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    I know this is an old thread but I am getting ready to start a sua with '78 Scout 2 axle and I have read this and other posts a million times and have only one question that I can't wrap my brain around:

    "Please note. Its easiest to use the stock perch to set the angle. This will give your front axle the stock amount of caster that is built into the Scout II front end from the factory. You can ADD caster with a pair of shims if you'd like more."

    I assume that is stock caster AND pinion angle. Now stock caster in my axle is 0*. Adding 6* shims gives me the caster I need but won't that adversly affect pinion angle by 6*?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  13. SR-2

    SR-2 Farmall Cub

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    i followed this thread and it worked out great on my 70' 800. used axles from a 77' installed new bushings in the stock springs. when it was all said and done the pinion was only off little more than a degree. and some how i have almost 5* caster. the only problem is steering. i think a longer pitman arm would be better on the stock gear box. but the scout drives great
     
  14. tubolove

    tubolove Farmall Cub

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    In regards to the master cylinder for this conversion is there a only one Scout II master cylinder or a power version and a manual version? the Corvette one goes both ways so I assume on that one to use the manual version?

    I want to use the Scout II one to try t keep it as International as possible.

    Thanks

    Tom
     
  15. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    I use a standard Scout II power master cylinder withour the booster.

     
  16. Hambone

    Hambone Guest

    Old Forum- Damien are you still out there for a consult with a knucklehead?
     
  17. scout2000

    scout2000 Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Hello Damian,

    I'm in the middle of a brake swap/upgrade.

    I have a Stainless Steel Brakes Scout II disc break kit installed on my 1970 800a. The axles, both front and rear, are Dana 44's from a 1977 Scout II.

    I have the 1968 Corvette manual Master cylinder that you suggest.

    What would you suggest for me for my proportioning valve?

    Thanks for any comments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  18. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Damian no longer owns D&C. There should be a thread(sticky) here that discusses it.
    Your tech question may be better answered in the tech forum.
     
  19. scout2000

    scout2000 Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Hello Bill,

    I didn't mean to offend anyone with my question. It seemed perfectly appropriate to me.

    I have a Scout 800a that I have just completed a Scout II axle swap on, the main focus of this thread. Through out the thread, others have discussed brakes, master cylinders and proportioning valves.

    I have acquired the Corvette master cylinder that is recommended in the thread, and am working to resolve my brake issues.

    I am aware of D&C. Eric Younger is now the person who deals with customers. I purchased the Scout 800 dash kit from them a couple of months ago. I'm not sure exactly what the business arrangement is, but I was able to ask Daiman technical questions thru Eric/D&C when ordering parts and my understanding is that he is still somewhat/somehow associated with D&C. I don't fully understand the specifics here.

    Regardless, Daiman is still a member of the Scout and IH community with expertise in this area. Comments concerning the proportioning valve are appreciated either from Daiman, or any other members who have already resolved this issue.
     
  20. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There's no offense with asking a question.
    I was simply trying to help you get an answer.
    The phone number is listed so if you want an answer directly it may be better to call Eric.

    Or can wait for someone to look at the D&C forum and hope they answer or post the question in the main tech forum for a quicker response.
     

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