MiniBuild 18 ~ Putting Scout II axles on an 800

Discussion in 'D and C Extreme' started by Damian Grihalva, Oct 26, 2008.


  1. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Over the last few months I've built several SUA (Spring UNDER axle, aka. Stock orientation) Scout 800s with Scout II axles. I'd like to share some of the ways I do that by taking pictures from all these milder builds and putting them in one place for your viewing pleasure.
     
  2. JOBIE

    JOBIE Farmall Cub

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    Lets see em'...
     
  3. Blargh23

    Blargh23 Farmall Cub

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    ^ Yeah that.

    I'll eventually be swapping the rear D27 for something beefier in my ride.

    At the same time I'll think about going with something with discs for the front.
     
  4. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Alright. This one will be short and sweet as I'm only trying to quickly document how I would put D44's from a Scout II onto a Scout 80/800. Please understand this shouldn't be used for a comprehensive explaination. My goal is just to show one way to accomplish the goal.
     
  5. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    A stock Scout 800.
    [​IMG]

    Although they are a nice looking ~ definately original design with uncommonly good off-road performance, there are several reasons to put Scout II axles on a Scout 80/800. Here are a few:
    1) They turn sharper ~ making it easier to turn around without backing up
    2) They are wider ~ this makes them more sturdy when lifted, as well as allow bigger tires without excessive rubbing on the frame/springs (which is common on early model scouts)
    3) Better Brakes ~ Swapping old small drum brakes with more powerful disc/drums give MUCH better braking performance. They also don't pull to one side when in quick/emergency braking. They also don't fade after long hills or water crossings
    4) Ease in turning ~ Some will say that, after the conversion, steering feels like power-steering. Even though its not, in comparison to the stock high-friction hard-to-turn manners, the open-knuckle design is MUCH easier to turn. Expecially in parking lots or at low speeds.
    5) Parts availability. Scout II Dana 44s have Ford brakes, and standard gears/lockers/bearings. Not just cheaper to buid, but maintain.


    Thats why you should consider the swap. Here's a quick 'HOW'.

    Early Scout frames are wider than Scout IIs. Therefore you must move BOTH front and rear perches. This requires welding. The rear is easy. Strip the axle's stock perches then put it on the springs with new perches between it and the springs. I normally LOOSELY put the u-bolts in place as well.
    [​IMG]
    Then, using a measureing tape, center the axle on the springs. LIGHTLY tighten the u-bolts to keep the axle centered. Then use your jack to possition the pinion angle (which whould point up at the same angle the t-case yoke points down).

    The front axle is also fairly easy but much more involved. First you have to make the new U-bolts fit. To do this, simply grind a path so that they will fit securely around the housing.
    [​IMG]

    Test fit the U-bolts.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Then measure the old perches distance from each other (center of hole to center of hole) and determine how wide you much place the new perches on the Scout II axles. I find its about 1" ~ but double check your measurements.
    [​IMG]

    Instead of recreating the perche with weld or what-have-you, I simply take a small perch (Warior Industries 175) and cut off one leg. I then place it on the housing to match the amount it needs to be wider than the Scout II perch. Then I tack-weld it on.
    [​IMG]
    Please note. Its easiest to use the stock perch to set the angle. This will give your front axle the stock amount of caster that is built into the Scout II front end from the factory. You can ADD caster with a pair of shims if you'd like more.

    Put the other perch on, but you shouldn't have to weld it at this point.
    [​IMG]

    Re-install the front axle. The springs center pin will/should fit into the passenger-side perch you've already put on. This will position the axle on the springs. You may want to put the U-bolts on to keep the pinion angle right.
    [​IMG]

    With the shackles tight, you should be able to position the driver-side perch between the axle and spring. This should be the final placement of that perch ~ HOWEVER, make sure by taking several measurements to confirm the axle is centered under the scout. YOu can do this by measuring between BOTH perches and the outer parts of the axle. Standing back and looking can also be an easy way to see if something is immediately wrong.

    Once you are SURE that the axle is centered, tack weld the driver-side perch, remove the axle for final welding, clean and paint it, and re-install.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2008
  6. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Reasemble the axles, put the tires on and take a look.

    Here is a Scout 800 with STOCK AXLES with 33x9.50 tires and about 5" of lift.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a Scout 800 with SCOUT II AXLES w/ 31x10.50 and about 4-5" of lift.
    [​IMG]

    As you can see the lift is about the same. HOWEVER, the axles are much wider than stock giving a better stance and over-all better driving manners (steering, turning circle, and stopping).

    A couple more pictures.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    :gunsmilie:As you can see, its a pretty quick writeup.

    However, its time to cover the DRAWBACKS to swapping Scout II axles under a Scout 80/800.

    STEERING LINKAGE! You will need to MAKE (or have made) a custom linkage to connect the Scout 800 steering box with the Scout II knuckle. I've cut down my X-duty linkages and welded the stock Scout 800 pitman arm attachment point INTO the X-duty linkage to accomplish this. That way you don't NEED to modify the pitman arm OR the knuckle.

    BRAKE SYSTEM. FIRST: Scout II axles require different front and rear brake hoses. I ALWAYS replace them with new steel-braided hoses for a Scout II w/ a LIFT. You may need to re-plumb the rear axle with new hard line to match the connections at the frame.

    SECOND: Scout 80/800s Master Cylinders are too small for the job. You will need to swap in either a 68 Corvette MC or a stock Scout II MC in place of the stock unit. This is relatively easy and they DO bolt up with little modification ~ if any at all. However, you MAY need to change/modify the push-rod that connects the pedal to the master cylinder AND re-do some hard lines to fit the new MC. NEVER REUSE THE STOCK Porportioning valve. If you do not plumb around it, or replace it with a new Scout II model one, you will experience a heavy DRAG on your brakes. This can lead to overheating the brakes and/or fire.

    Professionals normally can do the needed brake system swap for about $500 (labor) + parts. Parts can be about $100 if all you want is to run the Scout II MC and plumb around the stock porportioning valve ~ or up to $400 (parts only) if you're replacing the calipers, pads, lines, new MC, rear shoes, rear cylinders, hardware, ect. Its up to you on how complete a job you do ~ but I recommend doing it right the first time.

    EBRAKE! You can remove the stock Scout 800 e-brake cables and have them installed into the Scout II rear drums if you choose to. Remember, you should use a Scout 800 Dana44 e-brake cable to do this. Check with your favorite suppliers for this if you don't have one. This will allow you to retain the stock e-brake system with the new axles

    :gunsmilie:
     
  8. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Getting a ton of requests for these pictures lately, thought I'd boost this build's status by putting it near the top.
     
  9. Mark B 70SR2

    Mark B 70SR2 High Wheeler

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    Damien, is there an issue with moving the spring hangers inward 3/4" on the front, instead of grinding the axle and moving the perches outward? I am close to making this swap, and wanted to use the sII swaybar as well.
     
  10. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    As long as you have enough room on the frame, there is no problem with that. However ~ to most people that means more welding to most customers ~ which is the drawback.
     
  11. 69scout

    69scout Farmall Cub

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    hey quick MC plumbing question.

    so i'm doing the corvette MC conversion. it says here that you can "plumb around" the scout 800 proportioning block ???

    dont you need some sort of reisiduel valve to the rear drum brakes? to keep the line pressure when using a corvette MC? or no?
     
  12. 69scout

    69scout Farmall Cub

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    hey quick MC plumbing question.

    so i'm doing the corvette MC conversion. it says here that you can "plumb around" the scout 800 proportioning block ???

    dont you need some sort of reisiduel valve to the rear drum brakes? to keep the line pressure when using a corvette MC? or no?
     
  13. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    The problem with the stock 800 Porportioning valve is that it holds preasure in the lines. This will cause the brakes to drag ~ expecially the discs in front, and if you do discs in the rear. This is the reason I say to plumb-around it ~ or in other words, get rid of it. If you have stock Scout II axles, you can also simply replace the P-valve with a Scout II unit.

    Also, NO you do not NEED the residual preasure valves but they are a really good idea and will keep the pedal nice and high. Besides, they are only about $30 each.

    My recommendation is:

    1) get a Scout II P-valve and run it instead of the stock unit
    2) Go all new, run the front brake lines straigh w/ 2# residual, and rear with an adjustable p-valve + 7-10# residual to the rear (adjustable p-vlave in between the residual and the MC).

    The best solution is #2 in my oppinion.
     
  14. Jonathan Bair

    Jonathan Bair Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for posting this thread, its my next project after the floor pans! I have started acquiring parts to do this, the axles, brake parts etc, need to find the lift springs. I want to put 34x9.50 TSL Bias under it, will I need more than a 4" lift? and if so,can this be achieved with extended shackles, or reverse shackles? Also, the axles are out of a ratty parts 78 terra, should I plan on re-doing the bearings, seals and rotors? I am assuming the driveshafts will have to be modified as well. Thanks again....
     
  15. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    2.5" lift springs, extended shackles and 6 degree caster shims should be in your plans. This will give you the lift you need for those 34s.

    As for the axles, if they were good when the Scout stopped running, they should be good now. However, I normally change all goo (grease the bearings and change the diff fluid). Repacking the bearings will give you the oppertunity to change the seals as well as check bearings and the ring/pinion.

    Most of the time you don't have to worry about the ring/pinion, but inspect it when you have the cover off while changing the fluids. When I brought home MiniBuild #12 (the shop builder) I found that the noise from the rear was waisted carrier bearings instead of the ring/pinion. Everything else checked out so I washed them down, and lubed them back up. Use brake-clean to spray any debris out of it (if needed) then add some synthetic fluid. You should be good.
     
  16. I am new to the scout family so bare with me. I just got a 1970 scout with the 304 V8 and Someone had previously done a reverse Shackle lift on it. What they didn't do was tilt the front differential furthermore they just welded a jeep drive train bar in between the two u joints. ( not sure it that's what you call them or not) I want to get new axles so I can have disk brakes so I'm assuming getting both new front and rear axles are the way to go. I believe they are at 3.73 What year would be the best fit for replacement axles for this? Any suggestions would be great. I have a feeling I will be asking a lot of questions as I venture into this new world.

    :cornfused:
     

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  17. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    What you have there is a fubar SOA. But honestly, I've seen much worse.

    The way I normally 'fix' things is redo it. Start from scratch and (after cutting things off) put everything back on where I want them. That way you don't run into any PO-funk.

    The instructions found here were adapted for people putting SII axles on 800s in the stock configuration (SUA), meaning the axles it on top of the leaf springs, not on the bottom.

    I'd say, the first thing to do would be to decide on what tire size you want, and how much wheeling you're going to do. If you're looking at tires 33" and larger, then the SOA would be a good plan, and you can take a look at Project 1 in my Extreme Buildups for more information on that. If you're looking to stay with minimal lift, and no larger than 33 (or narrow 34s) then you can use the 4" lift we used on this and set the axles up for SUA as we showed here.

    So its time for the hardest part of the build. Deciding the end goal. I'll be happy to help you whichever direction you choose. But you need to choose first!

    D:rockon:
     
  18. I would like to have 33's on this and do the SOA on a Scout II axle and most likely switch it over from a manual to an automatic transmission. I figure if I'm going to be making changes to the drive train I should get it all figured out at the beginning rather than figure it all out later.
     
  19. Damian Grihalva

    Damian Grihalva High Wheeler

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    Take a look at 'Austin', 'Danan's Egg-hundred' and 'Atencio' in our photo gallery. All three are running the suspension and tire size you have chosen. The SOA is the best way to go. I recommend building the suspension just like Project 1 (AJ) on our site, except without the lift springs and 36" tires ;)

    I'm an automatic guy myself. The TF727 is a great trans even without the over-drive. Getting one from a Scout II you should be able to bolt it in. All you'll need is the kick-down lever and linkage.

    D
     
  20. I look for that this weekend when I'm out looking for my axles. Maybe I can get it all from one scout II.

    Thanks Damian. And I'm just a few miles north of ya. Just up here in Denver.
     

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