M-5H-6 Front Axle questions

Discussion in 'IHC Military Vehicles' started by youric, Nov 23, 2018.


  1. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    I see what you mean about the shaft seal, I originally found it listed as a knuckle seal...

    Well, we'll see what happens!
     
  2. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Spent the last week covered in dirt and gear oil, getting my front axle apart.
    Didn't have very fast internet connection up there, so I had to wait to post all this.

    Here's the results: Close but no cigar. The seal is the same basic measurements, except depth.
    Also to note: my driver side 108310H is damaged, so now the quest for a modern replacement just got real!

    I've posted a bunch of pics of seal comparison, if for no other reason, so y'all have something to look at until I find the right replacement... :wacko:
    The OD is definitely 6.5"- fits nice and tight in the housing, but when mounted in the housing and mated to the bell, the seal has an internal steel structure that prevents it from reaching the bearing race- see last image...

    As Geof said a few replies back: the 108310H's rubber definitely assumes the shape of the bell over the last 70+ years- the difference between the two sealing lips is barely discernible.
    I've kept the damaged seal out to take to a seal house for matching. In the meantime, I've stuffed felt in the housing and reassembled the axle so that the truck can be moved.
    The search goes on...
    SEALSSidebySide.jpg
    SEALSBasicComparison.jpg
    SEALSInHousing.jpg
    SEALSOnBell.jpg

    And here's shakedown...
    SEALWrongFit1.jpg
    Frustrating, but it's progress.
    I read a post from Dave Ball a while back saying that someone across the pond (Tony Corbin I think ???) found a modern replacement for the same seal application in the M1/M2 front axle at a seal house over there- and that the modern replacement was all rubber construction. If anyone has that seal info I'd be very interested.
     
  3. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    As long as I'm posted photos, here's another photo sequence showing the travel of the seal on the knuckle.
    This seal was damaged because of the rough, pitted surface of the bell (shown here) which was caused by a deteriorated axle boot. The pitted area snagged the rubber, pulled it under and caused it to flip back on itself. That said the rubber still formed a seal despited the damage.
    SealTravel.jpg
    I smoothed the bell of the knuckle with an emery sponge to prevent further damage to the next seal.
     
  4. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Here's some further photos of teardown in case it helps anyone about to tackle the same job.
    Backing plate and grease retainer ring held on by twelve nuts. Note original 108320H hub seal on spindle.
    BackingPlate.jpg
    Spindle Removal
    SpindleRemoval.jpg
    Axle Removal AxleRemoval1.jpg
    AxleRemoval2.jpg
    Rzeppa CV axle joint detail
    AxleRemoval3.jpg
    Top Trunnion Bearing - remember to remove and label the shim packs- keep the top and bottom separate.
    TrunnionBearings.jpg
    Trunnion Bell Removal - This is a BEAR. Rob Peterson said he drove a cold chisel directly into the seam, so I did the same with good results.
    I don't remember the FA-50 photos I've seen having the same small cutaways on each side as the M-5H-6 axle as show below, but I was able to use a flat-ground punch to contact those surfaces. This step is more difficult than you may anticipate since the back half of the trunnion housing will do its best to be in your way. It helps A LOT to have someone pulling on the bell while you're chiseling/punching it to maximize outward travel.
    TrunnionBell.jpg
    Parts, mid-cleaning... PartsCleaning.jpg
    Reassembled
    Reassembled.jpg
    The part of this whole job that took the biggest chunk of time was cleaning the decades of hardened dirt and grease from all the parts.
    A gallon of old stinky gasoline, a box of rubber gloves, several scrub tubs, lots of rags, scotch pads, scrapers and picks and a couple cans of brake cleaner got the job done.
     
  5. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    The shouldered studs holding the spindle on explains why I could not get one apart there some time back when I sold an axle shaft out of it. Ended up splitting it at the trunnion bearing to get it apart. The entire brake area inside the drum was almost packed with grease from years of bad seals.
    Hope yours looked a little better when you opened it up. Sure looks good now. m5 axle 1.jpg
     
  6. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    WOW!! That's actually impressive, where did ALL that grease come from? Did they add a zerk on the brake drum? :laugh:
    Mine looked bad, but not that bad.
    If seals on both sides are bad it would make sense that the passenger side has more oil/grease damage, since the gear oil has less distance to travel. IIRC, my passenger side looked worse.
    WheelMess.jpg
     
  7. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    I think maybe they did.
    After pulling the drum and looking at it, I figured I just had to take a picture because I've never seen anything quite like it before. At least it was all well lubed!!
     
  8. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    I've hit a few seal houses with the damaged 108310H I took out of my truck- and have had no luck. I'm not sure whether the solution is really that hard to find or if I'm doing terrible job of describing what I'm looking for to counter people (but I brought photos of fitment and everrrr'thang!).

    I'm not even nearly done looking down the seal house route, but one thing that could work and possibly for a lower cost: someone with steady hands could carefully pry open the steel housing on a NOS seal, remove the rubber and have a copy of that 'element' produced by a 3D printer from nitrile material. I'm not asking anyone who has a NOS seal to sacrifice theirs, but if I can find one myself I know a few folks who are well-versed with the 3D technology. If the price isn't staggering, I think it would make sense to produce a small stockpile of rubber elements. When I find a replacement for my damaged seal, I'll use the old one as a guinea pig first to see if removing the rubber could even be a possibility without destroying the housing.

    Just a thought, back to the interchange search...
     
  9. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Sorry for the delay- been busy with work, but I hit some pay dirt with the interchange search.
    Ran across a stack of old Chicago Rawhide interchange supplements and stock manuals from the late-50s, also some IH cross-reference manuals. So here are two C/R interchanges for 108310H: 19810A and 32608
    19810A was listed in an IH manual as a C/R number but I haven't found it listed in any C/R books.
    32608 is listed in several mid-50s C/R books and I've included excerpts below:
    CRcatalog4.jpg
    This is the first place I found the 32608 number. I'd never seen "Axle Socket" listed anywhere else in all these old seal books.
    CRcatalog2.jpg
    CRcatalog1.jpg

    CRcatalog3.jpg
    This is the only place I've seen the old Eaton number listed with the IH number other than the M5H6 parts manual.

    CRcatalog5.jpg
    This table is pretty interesting and coincidentally the only place I've seen the "HD4" type listed. Later C/R books list up to the HD3.
    Note that C/R lists 650HD38 as the actual part number and 32608 as the stock number. Also that the OD measurement as 6.508" as expected, but the shaft measurement as 3.250", which is confusing since the ID of the seal should be somewhere between 5.25"-5.5". So in this case, because of the specific type of seal, they measure the 'shaft' by means of a spherical radius which gives you 3.250" (and that means a full spherical diameter of 6.5").
    THE GOOD NEWS: More part numbers to search.
    THE BAD NEWS: These seem just as difficult to find.

    Extra: I've picked up several modern C/R and National seals with dimensions that may work in a pinch, but aren't meant for spherical sealing. Haven't had time to tear the truck back to pieces and try them. I also went into Garlock HQ in Houston a few months ago and got connected with their applications dept. I'll be sending them all this info and hopefully they can point out a modern replacement.
     
  10. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Here's a table I've been woking on. It's a perpetual work in progress since I'm always adding info, but if it helps anyone as it is now all the better. I have similar spreadsheets running for the rear axles and transfer case if anyone is interested.
    M-5H-6 Front Axle chart.jpg
     
  11. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    I'm always amazed by people that have the forethought and patience to put together info sheets like this. Very thankful too. I'd say if you can, go ahead and post the others as well. I for one will copy them to my files and eventually use the info.
    Thanks in advance!!
     
  12. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Very happy to say that I have finally found a readily-available modern solution: with some slight modification National 415645 will work perfectly to replace IHC's 108310H.

    Sorry I don't have photos to walk this through as it would make this explanation a lot easier to understand, but I had the truck and axle in pieces over the weekend on a major time crunch and I totally spaced on taking photos.

    Here's the skinny:
    Nat'l 415645 is a two-piece seal with a double-lip nitrile rubber element and a tension spring. You will have to remove the inner steel piece and tension spring to make it work for this. The two steel pieces are pressed together with a small lip of the outer piece holding the inner piece in. You need to grind or cut that lip off, it took me about 5 minutes with a bench grinder. Putting it in a vice and making a clean cut with a cut-off wheel would definitely look better (but I'm not too worried about someone getting into my trunnion housing to criticize my grinding job). Remove the inner steel piece. Remove the tension spring, then insert the seal in the trunnion housing (flat end first) and be sure to oil the nitrile element before assembly, since it seals tighter than the original - if you don't, you'll soon understand what I mean around the time you're tearing it apart again.

    When I started in on the axle this weekend, I had about a dozen different seals collected to see if anything could be made to work. Most did not even come close. Had high hopes that the same seal for first series Land Rovers would be a great replacement since they're 1/4 price of the Nat'l seal and easy to get, but they're just ONE TENTH of an inch too big. There's a HARWAL wiper seal that seems to work almost as well as the National seal, by inserting it backwards- I'll dig up that part number if anyone wants it- but I believe the National seal is the superior replacement.
     
  13. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Here's a few quick illustrations to clarify the seal modification. I apologize that my photoshop skills are lacking.
    Natl415645walkthrough1.jpg Natl415645walkthrough2.jpg Natl415645walkthrough3.jpg Natl415645walkthrough4.jpg
     
  14. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    The pictures are worth the 1000 words. Nice work.
     
  15. Tony Robinson

    Tony Robinson Farmall Cub

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    Hi Eric I am restoring a M3 floodlight truck and am having the same problem on these seals I found a small company here in the uk that makes seals by freezing rubber pipe and then machining the rubber into the seal it was then fitted into a nylon housing unfortunately it was too thick when fitted and couldn't turn the steering they then machined just a rubber seal which fitted ok but when they were fitted and the steering was turned they dragged on the ball and flipped out of the housing. I was wondering whether you could get me a couple of the seals and ship them to the uk for me I will of course pay for them and the shipping costs and am prepared to send you the money through paypal before you send them to me . I can send some pics of the restoration and you may like to know that Tony Corbin is my partner in the M2 on the beach in Normandy best regards Tony Robinson
     
  16. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Tony,
    I would be happy to help, but I think your first best bet would be to search them on eBay from a seller who is either overseas or willing to ship there! I'm usually all over the place for work, so I'm not sure when I could ship. I was able to find NOS seals on eBay for less than buying them new.

    With this seal, the steering will be tighter at first, but not too tight to turn and once you're driving the truck you won't notice. Like I said above, be sure to oil the seal prior to installation (for this exact reason).

    Here's a good deal on one out of Canada:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIMKEN-NAT...533605?hash=item1ef2250e25:g:Ve4AAOSwhzhcM6Ns

    Would definitely love to see photos of the project, send me a private message for my email
     
  17. Tony Robinson

    Tony Robinson Farmall Cub

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    Hi Eric thanks for the info have bought the one in Canada and another in the US hopefully will solve the problem How do I send a private message?
    Tony
     
  18. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Go to the upper righthand corner of this page and click on "Inbox" and "Start A New Conversation"
     
  19. Barry Ring

    Barry Ring Farmall Cub

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    My M3L-4 was the the same, I figured its down to years and years of greasing the swivel hubs and eventually the grease works it way through the stub axle into the brake drum as is has nowhere else to go.
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Dave Ball

    Dave Ball High Wheeler

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    Great work Eric!!! Happy to see there are still some IH freaks out there willing to go the extra mile to keep the old ladies rolling. Hats off to you guys.

    Dave
     

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