M-5H-6 Front Axle questions

Discussion in 'IHC Military Vehicles' started by youric, Nov 23, 2018.


  1. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Hey y'all this is a question I see pop up on here and I've never seen it answered, I just posted the below in a thread on the Triple Diamond forum and wanted to copy and post it here to get more traction..

    Is the only difference between the Eaton FA-50 in '50s and '60s civilian heavy all-wheel-drive trucks and the WWII-era Eaton FDK-1361 (used in the M-5H-6 deuce) the trunnion oil seal?
    I've always assumed they were identical axles, but from all the photos of the FA-50 I've seen and in Rob's walk-through I've never seen or heard any mention of the trunnion oil seal (IHC 108310 H/Eaton 24287) that's shown in all the M-5H-6 manuals and coincidentally have never been able to find one or a modern solution. All the other seals in the military axle are identical to the FA-50.

    Here are two very similar questions: Is there a slight difference in the design of these two axles that eliminates the need for this seal or did they just decide it was unnecessary to begin with?? If the two axles are indeed the same and the FA-50 does have the trunnion oil seal, has anyone figured out a replacement solution? I'm preparing to tackle the axle seals on my M-5H-6 and I want to have everything on hand that needs going into it.
    Since I posted the above on the other forum, I found a photo that Dave Ball posted of a NOS seal (I saved the image and attached it here). If Dave or anyone who has one can get the OD/ID measurements with a digital caliper I'd be happy to do the legwork finding a cross-reference or at least a modern replacement.
    IMG_5229.jpg IMG_5230.jpg DSCN0095.jpg
     
  2. Dave Ball

    Dave Ball High Wheeler

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    I may have one of those seal laying around if I do and can find it I will measure it and post that info. Dont qoute me but I thought I had found a modern replacement in a SKF catalog a few years back at a local bearing house.
     
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  3. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    I've been digging around on this subject for a while now. I found Geof Fowler's 4x4 page (which I was completely unaware of), WOW!! Tons of useful info there- including an earlier PDF version of Rob Peterson's walk-through that had a page that was missing in all other versions I've seen and it deals only with this exact seal.

    Here's Geof's page: https://ih1404x4.weebly.com

    I've attached the missing page of Rob's walk-through talking about 108310 H

    Using the resources on Geof's page I actually found one of these seals. Only one. It's on its way to my mailbox now and I've dusted off my digital caliper to get some precise measurements.

    I've also attached a photo of a cross-section from the M-2-4 manual showing how the seal contacts the bell of the trunnion. Obviously not the same axle, but the same design in a smaller size. The seal is #48 IMG_5588.jpeg
     

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  4. Dave Ball

    Dave Ball High Wheeler

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    Its funny on Rob's page and in his apps page how many parts that are pictured are from my collection. Many pictures are from this forum's archives! Recently the gentleman that made the deal to buy all my parts has gone quiet. What does that mean, it means I will more than likely have several tons of IH parts for sale soon!!!
    I have NOS lockers for m5 might work in late M3, front leather knuckle boots, a couple rebuilt Loadstar 5 speed OD full synchronized transmissions T-34 and several sets of Locking hubs. I also have my running M5-H-6 with a cargo bed and impossible to under bed gas tank, chain boxes and a correct top with canvas. I also have a running GD-233 that comes with a M-2-4 chassis.
    I have a super clean complete rust free open cab for a M3 or M5. Tons of brake parts many NOS. Plus much more...
     
  5. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    Are you retiring Dave?
     
  6. Dave Ball

    Dave Ball High Wheeler

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    Hi George...
    No after some health issues I have decided to dial it back. Shrink the herd.
    I am ok just want to stay that way. :cowboy:
    These big binders sure can Inflict pain.:dig:
    Dave
     
  7. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Dave,

    I'm sorry to hear about any health issues, but I'm glad to hear you're not getting out of it entirely- a lot of us here are counting on your expert advice!

    Hang in there!

    Eric
     
  8. Dave Ball

    Dave Ball High Wheeler

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    I appreciate that Eric, for the last two years I have been lurking here and only butting in when I thought I could help. I will continue to do that. I am watching the military truck forum only. I used to watch a couple others until I started slowing down. I can't weld or use my plasma cutter anymore so that was a big hit for me.
    I still have a very large manual and reference collection. I am happy to help when I can...
    I still believe the WW2 International trucks were purpose built to be the toughest trucks used by the troops. After the war they served again and are still carrying on today.
    The civilian versions are highly sought after and the K and KB series are just as tough.
    Because of this there is a group of collectors that are scrounging parts from a shrinking pile. We all drink from the same canteen.
    In some cases as in rear brakes and parts that are beyond repair the trucks will sit as parts are unavailable. I say to those that have sitting trucks keep scrounging and keep locating rebuilders that can repair your cores. If your goal is to drive one of the baddest trucks built it can be done.
    Keep scrounging!!!
    Keep them rolling
    Dave
     
  9. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    Sounds like a plan.
    If your sale does fall apart, I may be interested in some of your stash. Can't afford most of it but I can dream. Just send me a note at my normal email since I don't really pay attention to the messaging system very often here. And I am hit and miss with even checking the website at times. Especially the for sale area.
    george.yingst@yahoo.com
     
  10. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Seal arrived...


    ...and it's the wrong one. :censored:

    Looks like I'm gonna have to preempt my front axle reseal project with a partial teardown, pulling out the original 108310H seal to get exact measurements and hopefully finding a modern replacement.

    Here's some updates on other avenues I've been searching...

    Old cross-reference search: I've been working my way through piles of old parts counter oil seal catalogs from the 1950s and '60s and it's not mentioned in any of them, neither is the M-5H-6, but the R, S, A & B mid-size 4x4s with the FA-50 axle are and they list every other seal in the axle.
    I don't have any Eaton manuals or parts books and I'm not sure if they would list an updated part number in later years.
    I still have 5 or 6 more books to creep through still, fingers crossed for an interchange.

    New replacement search: One modern seal that looked the closest (in appearance, not dimension) is National 4160.
    Multi-lip, springless grease seal for low speed applications. In the Timken National catalog it is listed as style 281.
    I photoshopped a little graphic comparison here...
    SealComparison.jpg
    I haven't been able to find that style in an other dimensions (4160 is too small), but maybe that's enough to get started on. All the other styles of grease seal, the sealing lips didn't appear long enough.
    Not sure how to go about getting custom seals made yet, but looking into that seems to be one of the next logical steps.

    Merry Christmas, y'all!
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  11. Geoff

    Geoff Farmall Cub

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    Hi Eric, Dave, George et all!

    Dave - I hope you can find a happy balance on the truck vs health issue. Good luck. I have mad respect for all your knowledge and respect. When you start digging through your stash, let us know what FA50 stuff you have and I'll try to find a home for it. Or I'll take it myself until I can find a home for it. I'm on a shoestring budget most of the time, but I sure would like a set of the leather boots, front wheel cylinders and a locker for the RA20 rear.

    As Eric noticed, I did add a page to Rob's original FA50 rebuild write up. The new page was just to tell folks that might disassemble the FA50 to be careful when working with the trunnion seal, since they appear to be NLA. I've only been into 3 of the FA50 axles and the 108310H seals were reusable on all 3. The rubber was a little stiff, but not torn. Maybe Eric will be that lucky. I've always used brake fluid to soften the rubber a bit. If anyone has a better way to treat/rejuvenate old rubber, please let us know.

    If not, I took some pics showing the various dimensions of the 108310H seal. Sorry for the bad pics and cluttered workbench background. Hopefully, this will be helpful. When I have time, I'll try to add this to the FA50 write up and update here and on my website.

    IMG_9495.jpg IMG_9496.jpg IMG_9497.jpg IMG_9498.jpg IMG_9501.jpg IMG_9503.jpg IMG_9504.jpg IMG_9505.jpg IMG_9506.jpg IMG_9507.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
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  12. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Geof, thank you so much for pics and measurements! That's incredibly helpful to my search, the only dimension I'm missing is the overall outside diameter of the steel housing. After spending so much time lately (at least a couple hours every evening at this point) crawling through parts books, outdated seal catalogs and the deep recesses of the internet- looking for that one part- it's pretty wild to see a small pile of NOS seals sitting on your workbench.

    I'm tearing my axle apart this weekend so I can get more pics and measurements. I have my fingers crossed that the seals in my truck will be reusable, but I'm still determined to find a modern solution (for that poor guy who finds his seals destroyed). I've noticed that many Case IH tractors with front drive axles have similar steering knuckles and updated versions of that type of seal, I'll be running one of my old seals to a few different dealership parts counters to see if I can find a match. Fingers crossed.

    ALSO: Geof, I also noticed somewhere on your page that you were searching for a few other seals without any luck. I don't know if that situation is outdated at this point, but I have a small library of old seal catalog from the mid-50s to the early-70s that do a fair job of covering IH axles and transfer cases (excepting only the 108310H). I've been able to find modern cross-references through most of those seal #s that I couldn't find anywhere else. Drop me a line (Geof or anyone) if you're looking for any specific numbers or page scans. Happy New Year!
     
  13. winchested

    winchested High Wheeler

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    You should be able to cross reference any seal you could think of by size to any industrial supplier like SKF, national, etc. Most have their catalogues online and even though the lip type might be a bit different they will likely work 100% fine.
     
  14. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    That's the plan and I thought it would be a lot easier than it has turned out to be.

    The first challenge has been getting all the exact dimensions for this seal. Most are still buried in truck axles, since NOS examples are nearly non-existent.

    The second challenge will be finding a seal still made in those large/odd dimensions that will double seal to a massive steering knuckle vs a shaft that most conventional oil seals are made for.
    We'll get there, just turning out to be a little extra work than most normal cross-references...

    "Anything worth having is worth working for. What isn't worth working for isn't worth anything"
    - International Harvester WWII booklet "Have A Victory Garden" by L.A. Hawkins
     
  15. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    I haven't commented much in here because I've never torn one apart yet so I have no practical knowledge on them.
    Looking at the parts book drawing, does this seal basically do the same as the old felt "wipers" on the ww2 dodge axles? I"ve had them apart and rebuilt a few. If it is, is its basic job more to keep dirt, mud and crap off of the knuckle ball more than keeping anything in? If so, I would think most any seal that fits would do the job.
    If the newer axles don't even mention it, did they just do away with it figuring it wasn't needed?
    Just asking since I don't know. Figure one of you that has been inside one can comment on this.
     
  16. Geoff

    Geoff Farmall Cub

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    Eric,
    I'm glad you asked about the OD. I meant to post this last night and forgot. My calipers aren't big enough to measure the OD. By the tape measure, it's right at 6.5".

    I'll also add a couple of pics of the inner portion of the trunnion housing (I think that's what it's called) from one of the old axles I have. Note how close the ID of the rubber is to the ID of the metal seal housing after taking a set from 50+ years.

    Hope this helps. Thanks for your efforts to search. I'm eager to hear what you find.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  17. Geoff

    Geoff Farmall Cub

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    George,
    Yes, the seal we're talking about serves the same purpose as the felt wipers on many other closed knuckle axles.
     
  18. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    So, here's something pretty darn close...
    CaseIH# 1964236C1 from the APL 345 model axle on the CaseIH 956 and 1056 tractors.
    It's the steering knuckle seal- so it serves the same function vs a generic shaft seal.
    Plus, the dimensions are nearly identical: ID x OD x W = 5.374 x 6.516 x .507
    1964236C1.jpg
    The APL 345 axle is also used in some John Deere & Ford tractors, so there's a multitude of part numbers listed for this one seal worldwide and there are two superceding axle models that it is used in- the APL 350 and 355.
    Planning on ordering one tomorrow and trying it in an axle next week.
     
  19. Geoff

    Geoff Farmall Cub

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    That's very cool, Eric. Thanks for sharing. So how did you find your way to this part number?

    Following up on your comment about multiple part numbers . . .

    1964236C1 converts to NSN# 5330-01-440-8661
    http://www.parttarget.com/5330-01-4...searchoption=sku&originalsearchtext=1964236c1

    On a John Deere link I found this conversion.
    http://www.ermseals.com/products/12...OLLAND-1457531-CASE-IH-1964236C1-2444404.html
    12019619B oil seal for John deere AL68616 NEW HOLLAND 1457531 CASE IH 1964236C1
    SIZE 136.8*165*13
    MATERIAL:NBR

    This one shows a conversion to VPJ2861
    https://www.madisontractor.com/1964236c1-oil-seal.html

    This one shows it as a regular axle seal (rotating around a shaft). I hope it works out. Thanks for your efforts.
     
  20. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    I was searching through front drive axle seals for later model military trucks and tractors. Hard to say exactly what I was searching for when I found it. A lot of my searching through agricultural, military and industrial seals has consisted of tweaking search parameters little by little and seeing what pops up. The descriptions posted online by suppliers and vendors are pretty vague, to say the least, when I found something that looked close, I'd check a bunch of cross-reference searches to verify dimensions.

    Another more conventional seal that may work is National 415938. Check it out and let me know what you think. Cheers!
     

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