Lift

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by pnwscout, Nov 3, 2016.


  1. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    Hi y'all,
    Frist time doing a lift bigger than a 2" shackle lift. I'm picking up a rough country 4" lift kit was wondering if I should put on drop pitman arm or not and has anyone ever made one the ones I found seem a bit pricy. Thanks for looking and any advice
     
  2. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    No. Those dropped pitman arms aren't a good idea on an otherwise stock steering setup. They are shorter than the factory Pitman arm. So it will slow down the steering rate, meaning more turning of the steering wheel per angle change at the tires.
     
  3. INT77345

    INT77345 Farmall Cub

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    on mine i got an adjustable drag link, you can make it a little longer then stock drag link, and that helps get the angel better and the steering wheel in center
     
  4. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    That won't change any angles. Or the geometry involved.

    That dropped Pitman arm is really just a Jeep part that happens to fit a Scout steering box. There isn't too much to gain other than stronger leverage at the box and "slower" steering. The slower steering is fine if you want to run a smaller steering wheel though. Or if you are perhaps building a rock crawler.

    OP, what are you hoping to gain by using the dropped arm?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  5. INT77345

    INT77345 Farmall Cub

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    i dont want to provoke an argument, but yes, longer drag link will make less of an angle
    lift raises pitman arm, shorter drag link = steeper angle from point A to B longer drag link = less of angle
    now not by much but less helps

    lift raises pitman arm shorter drag link = compensating by moving pitman arm to right by turning steering wheel to the right.
    longer drag link= keeping pitman arm centered
     
  6. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Oh, THAT angle. You mean horizontally. Yes of course. But the trade is slower steering (the dropped arm is shorter by a few inches), which many people find they don't like.
     
  7. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Not to say that an adjustable drag link isn't a great idea anyway. I've been running one for years. It's nice for centering the steering wheel after a lift.

    But if you really want to fix the drag link angle, do a cut-and-turn. Rotating the yokes back by 5-9 degrees will raise up the mounting point in the steering arms quite noticeably.
     
  8. INT77345

    INT77345 Farmall Cub

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    and the corrected knuckle caster from the cut and turn will yield a night and day driving difference. Over the years, the cut and turn and reverse shackle have been my favorite and most bang for the buck modifications that improve driving experience
     
  9. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    I appreciate the info on all this I was just hoping to reduce the chance of bump steer but ill take a look into the cut and turn when I install this new lift kit just waiting on it to come in.
     
  10. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    trying to reduce bump steer

     
  11. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Yep. That's definitely the usual reason the cut-and-turn: fixing caster. Huge improvement in driving stability. I've never seen anyone else mention side benefit the drag-link angle improvement. It was just something I noticed after doing my C and T.

    It's funny. For the two best improvements I've made in driving and handling, I always say it's the cut and turn and the swap to much better, tuneable shocks.

    It might help with bump steer, but steering will be slower. That issue aside, definitely look into getting the adjustable drag link, as INT77345 says. It's a nice thing to have. In addition to helping the drop-angle geometry slightly (an aspect I'd ignored earlier) it will save you from having to pull of your steering wheel in effort to recenter it after the lift.

    I found this thread on Pirate discussing some of the pros and cons of the dropped/short pitman arm:
    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/2362185-short-long-pitman-arm.html

    So read up on the cut and turn process, and see if it's for you. It doesn't necessary cost much money, but it does involve a lot of labor. It's something to consider if you plan to keep your Scout for a while. Otherwise, look into using caster shims. They're not as desireable but way easier to implement.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  12. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    After reading up on that cut and turn ill see how the truck drives after the lift is installed but that looks like my best option and I have all the equipment to do it. To those who have don't this mod which is better leaving the axel on the truck or taking it off and putting it on the bench? Thanks guys for your input
     
  13. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Definitely remove it from the vehicle. Most of the work (disassembly) could be done with the axle still clamped to the springs. But for grinding away the factory welds, you kinda need 360* access and the leverage of standing over the axle while you are doing that. some people put the axle on a bench. I chose to put it on some jackstands. And also it's better to do the welding in a way that you're able to rotate the axle around as you work.

    You might think about caster shims first, in case at CandT would make the project too huge. They will get you some of what the CandT will get you: improved caster and less bump steer. The downside is they'll point your pinion down, kinda messing up the front driveshaft angles a little. And they won't give you as much +caster as you probably want, ideally.

    One question: With these 4" springs are you going to be using those longer shackles are going back to stock length shackles? Because that will affect the caster. You are better off with shorter shackles in that regard (but you won't have as much lift).
     
  14. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    I'm getting the 4" lift from rough country through scoutparts.com it has new springs but I'll have to use the stock shackles they do have new ones to buy and I also have the ability to make new ones as well to get more than a 4" I'm also going to put 35s on it
     
  15. tahoedonner

    tahoedonner Binder Driver

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    You're going to need more than a 4" spring lift to fit 35" tires.
     
  16. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Okay. You said in your first post that you did a "2 inch shackle lift". I assumed you meant you'd done it on this Scout. I also assume that by "2 inch" you meant 2-inch longer shackles (5" vs 3") which would only raise a truck 1 inch, technically speaking. And not that you went with shackles that are 4 inches longer than standard. That'd be reckless.

    And on the 35" tire thing, not a practical idea if you're only going 4" up. You could get by on it if you stayed on nice smooth roads where the axles won't do hardly any articulation. But if you took it off road you'd find those tires rubbing pretty horribly at the front and rear in very short order.
     
  17. pnwscout

    pnwscout Farmall Cub

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    I did a 2 inch (4 inch longer) shackle lift on my old ranger a long time ago sorry for the confusion. From what I was reading to do 35's I would have to trim the fenders a little. I know 33's will fit with no modification and be able to take it off road with no rubbing. what the widest y'all recommend I was looking at 10" wide but I was also looking at doing an offset wheel when I get new tires
     
  18. INT77345

    INT77345 Farmall Cub

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    just something to think about...... my 33's with 4 inch lift would rub on the inner wheel well, for me trimming the fenders would not have helped. have you thought about a body lift ? i run 4 inch springs, extended shackles and a 1 inch body lift. very little rubbing with 33 inch tires. and i do alot of 4 wheeling. also as an alternative to 35 inch tires have you looked at this size ?
    • Size: LT285/75R17
    • or 34X10.50
    both looks good on a scout and are very close to 35

    this is 4 inch lift 1 inch body lift and extended shackles 33 inch tires
     

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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  19. Patrick Morris

    Patrick Morris Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Very nice, clean looking Scout there INT77. Yep. 35s will rub on the rear inner wheel wells at the rear for sure. That's not an easy area to "trim". Requires some major surgery. My friend did it to his Scout so his 33s would not rub. And he's running 4" Rancho springs + 5" shackles. (Call it 5" of lift, total.) And the front, the tires will hit the front edge of the fenders. But that's actually an easy area to trim.

    Heck, I am running maybe 3.5-4" all around, with just 32" tires, and I needed to do some work front and rear to keep mine from rubbing when fourwheeling. I removed the lip at the rear of the rear-inner fender.

    Another thing that helps, on top of everything else, is lowering the bump stops. I did this front and rear. The picks below are from my checking fender clearances etc. Using opposing ramps to get the axles crossed up a little. You can see that I used much bigger bumpstops than the little factory things. And you can kinds see how the rear tires stuffs up in there. If that was a 35, I'd have been hitting sheet metal.
    Of course, a body lift will help to alleviate this as well.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. INT77345

    INT77345 Farmall Cub

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    Awesome. Lights Patrick.
    Yes thoes extended bump stops are a great idea to keep tire from shacking hands with wheel well. Looks like a man could trim them to what ever length they need for their scout. Original. Poster---- that looks like the simple and cheapest solution to keeping 35s out of your sheet metal. Go that route and if you decide for more lift or less tire later the bump stops can be removed or trimmed down for what ever your needs will be
     

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