Ignition Questions

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by TheGoldenGreek, Sep 26, 2020.


  1. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    Evening All,

    TL/DR: What's this dizzy?

    A few weeks back I drove the Scout about an hour away to visit a friend's farm so the kids could go pumpkin picking. It was a great day and I had been working on the Scout all summer and wanted to get it out with the top off. It had been running great for the past few months and I had just finished an engine rewire project. At the beginning of the season I replaced my MSD 82023 coil with an MSD 8222 because it would crank but not start and that resolved the issue. Also, the 8222 can be mounted horizontally where the 82023 should be mounted vertically.

    During this drive, truck ran great, then about 1/2 a mile from my destination the engine up and died while cruising at about 20 mph. Initial troubleshooting looked like I had air + fuel but no spark. The coil was extremely hot, unable to touch for any length of time. With the air cleaner off I could pump the accelerator and gas would spray into the carb so I was pretty sure it was a coil issue. So sent wifey back out into town to grab any universal coil she could find at the local chain store. Ended up getting towed to the farm by friend's Wrangler, which I shall never live down.

    Wife took the long way, so after about an hour I tried cranking it again and it fired right up. I thought, alright maybe it's vapor lock but installed the new Accel 8140 when she brought it back just to be sure. I've since mitigated against vapor lock by insulating the carb and fuel lines, but the coil issue has me concerned so was looking into that again as I reinstalled the MSD coil today.

    Per the instructions for the 8222 coil, a ballast is likely required for a "stock or points distributor" (exact wording below) and the MSD PN recommended is 8214 or a 0.8 ohm resistor. I replaced my dizzy back in 2006 with a part from NAPA but am unable to identify it. I see transistors under the cap, so it's an electronic ignition, but probably not an HEI of any sorts. I want to say it's a Prestolite, but NAPA's website today only shows points distributors available. Been searching for a matching image on the forums, but no joy. Can anyone help me ID this dizzy so I can pull specs? I feel the ballast is probably warranted, can anyone confirm? Never had one before and have had the previous MSD coil for at least 10 years which also recommends the ballast.

    Other Info
    I'm seeing some pitting/corrosion on the rotor tip, but it is 14 years old. The coil is wired per the diagram and is wired to an MSD 6AL. The coil's negative terminal is grounded to the aluminum intake with 0.7 ohms resistance to the battery negative. Edit: Coil is NOT grounded to intake - my mistake! It's connected to the MSD 6AL black wire. Engine temps range between 180-195.

    Ballast/Resistor Instruction in the MSD 8222 Manual
    When using the Blaster Coil with a points or stock style distributor, a 0.8 Ohm ballast resistor must be installed in-line of the positive wire. Failure to use a ballast resistor could result in personal injury or component failure.

    Thanks as always, seems every time I get something fixed on this thing something else wants to start acting up. In all the years I've had this thing the engine has never died while I was actually moving.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  2. walkersscout

    walkersscout High Wheeler

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    Looks like a ford reluctor. The pickup I am not familiar with. There can be overheating on the coil if the right resistance is not had, though I am not sure about your particular arrangement of parts.
    What Ican tell you is that you are getting close to a hamilton FI arrangement. I have a brew your own hamilton injection and highly recommended that you finish the installation.

    best of luck
     
  3. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 Y-Block King

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    OP, Your only questions were:
    "Evening All,
    TL/DR: What's this dizzy?" and "Can anyone help me ID this dizzy so I can pull specs?" and "I feel the ballast is probably warranted, can anyone confirm?"

    My answer: Prestolite electronic distributor, and Ballast not required with this distributor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  4. Kurt_M

    Kurt_M Farmall Cub

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    The rotor used with the Prestolite Distributor (internal module) uses a resistor built into the rotor, under the plastic rectangular cover. They are known to go bad, difficult to test it if it opens up only when hot. Guess you could use the old one and if it quits again put a new one in and see if it starts? It is a NAPA AL163.
    rotor.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  5. jordandoc

    jordandoc Binder Driver

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    Looks like a Prestolite, especially if the cap terminals are male. Holley distributors have female terminals on the cap. There should also be a plastic dust cover that goes "over" the distributor housing. If these are not used, the cap doesn't fit tight. You should include pics of the cap and rotor for confirmation. Also, various electronic ignitions require specific coil resistance. Most of them run well with a 1.5 ohm primary resistance. I did burn out a new Pertronix ignition with a 0.8 ohm resistance coil. I believe stock IH ignitions have @ 1.5 ohm resistance coils. The is probably why MSD recommends a 0.8 ohm resistor as the MSD Blaster coil has @ 0.7 ohm primary resistance. The coil resistance regulates the amperage going to the module. Too little primary resistance will cause the ignition module to overheat causing failure or intermittent problems. I solved this problem by replacing all my ignitions with Capacitor Discharge ignitions which only use the distributor only as a trigger to fire the capacitor box which in turn fires the coil...much higher voltage and multiple spark! Bottom line is that the coil resistance should match the range of resistance recommended by the distributor manufacturer. I have also had electronic ignitions do the very thing you are describing although they usually just "quit". One final thought; your distributor should have a ground wire coming from it...this is one that goes to the coil. What did you do with the second wire coming from the distributor? I not keen on wiring the negative pole of the coil directly to the block, especially aluminum! Put a stock coil on it wired correctly and I think it'll work. If you want performance, go to a Capacitor Discharge ignition with a high voltage epoxy bedded coil.
     
  6. 2dafloor

    2dafloor Farmall Cub

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    I never new there were resistors in some rotors... news to me.

    But would this be for noise suppression of some sorts? and not effect the primary side on the circuit.
     
  7. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    I
    Ok. So if it's setup right, the 6al connects to both sides of the coil. Are you triggering the 6al off the existing electronics ignition? You should not need a blast restore with the msd box. The orange wire goes to the positive coil terminal, the black wire to the negative. Nothing else is connected to the coil and no ballast resistor is needed. If your triggering off a reluctor magnetic pickup, then you connect the violet and green wires to the pickup. You usually make a harness that goes from the factory connector to the msd connector. You can get the msd side connector from msd or from digikey. If your triggering off breaker points or an existing ignition system, such as a pertronix ignitor, a holley gold box or a prestolite electronic ignition or whatever else is in there, you connect the wire that WAS connected to the negative side of the coil to the white wire.

    The key here is, ONLY the orange and black from the msd box wires go to the coil. There are no other wires connected to the coil. (Except the HV lead to the distributor cap.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  8. RinTX

    RinTX High Wheeler

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    It would help to narrow down what you may need to do if we see more pictures of exactly what your ignition wiring and components are on your Scout.
    Right now in your pic of your distributor internal I see three wires coming in. Where do they go or come from? (I’m used to only seeing 2)
     
  9. WRENCH MAN

    WRENCH MAN Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Prestolite, GOOD system, the one on my Scout has been running EXCELLENT for about 20 years now! ( I swapped it in) do you have the cover that goes under the cap?, get ECLIN parts from NAPA.
    Run FULL system voltage to the coil, the red wire goes on the + terminal, the brown wire on the - terminal, don't worry about the white wire, it just dangles in the breeze.
    I've got mine wired to an ACCELL Super coil, feed it DIRECT alternator voltage via a BOSCH relay, 8mm spiral core wires send the lightning to the plugs, works AWESOME!
     
  10. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    Seems the Prestolite Electronic Distributor is the winner. I've attached several more pics. Unfortunately, at least for this, the wiring is all enclosed in conduit but take my word for it the coil is wired as follows:

    From MSD 6AL:
    1. Heavy Red = Direct to Battery + with 12 AWG wire.
    2. Heavy Black = To stud in firewall with 12 AWG wire. Good tone w/ < 1 ohm resistance.
    3. Red = 12 Volt switched source.
    4. Orange = Coil +
    5. Black = Coil -
    6. White (trigger) = Distributor Brown Wire
    7. Violet/Green = Not Used (For Magnetic Pickups)
    From the Distributor:
    1. Brown to MSD White (trigger) (Originally connected to coil negative)
    2. Red to 12 volt switched source (same source as for MSD Red) (Originally connected to coil positive)
    3. White wire with bullet connector = Not used. This wire connects to a deceleration throttle modulator lead but to my knowledge is not used on Scouts.
    @jordandoc: You mentioned that there should be a dust cover (manual calls this a "Dielectric Shield") but I do not recall ever possessing this part. The cap fits, but I can turn it slightly after both clamps are in position. The manual doesn't specify it as an optional or "if applicable" part, so I guess I should source one. So if anyone can locate a part number or has one for sale I'm interested.

    The MSD 6AL is a CD ignition and the MSD 8222 is an epoxy filled coil specifically designed to be mounted horizontally - so bases covered there :)

    @Kurt_M: I'll grab a spare rotor. I wasn't tracking an internal resistor on this but that's a good trouble shooting recommendation.

    I think the distributor is set up correctly, and is triggering the MSD as it should. I did make a call to Holley to talk to an ignition tech, and he said the "really hot coil" issue was normal. We'll see if this happens again and I swap that Accel back in I guess.

    Otherwise maybe it was vapor lock to which I've put heat insulating wrap on the fuel hose from the A-frame to the pump and up to the carb everywhere I could get it to fit. I also added an aluminum spread bore to square bore adapter (which I should have had anyway) and a 1/2" phenolic spacer on top of that. So if it's a case of vapor lock, maybe that will be enough. Only way to find out is to drive it. ...I'll bring my helmet.

    Thanks to all for the good ideas.

    -G
     

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    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  11. jordandoc

    jordandoc Binder Driver

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    Ah-Ha!!! I must have missed the part where you mentioned this was a CD ignition. That changes the entire scenario. No ballast is needed! In your initial post you mentioned that the coil was grounded to the intake yet in the above post you say it's not. Which is correct? Neg and Pos wires originate from the CD box...no ground wire except from the box! If you have it wired differently then this may be your problem. Check and let me know, I'm curious. Regarding vapor lock, it's not the problem. With vapor lock, you'll have a "surge". If a motor just quits suddenly, it's usually ignition. Also, without the dust cover (dielectric shield), the cap will not fit tight like it should. If you don't have one, I might have a couple extras or they may be available at NAPA. Finally, do NOT swap the Accel 8140 coil back on the motor. This is an oil filled coil and will not work with CD ignitions (I think you'll fry it) as the primary resistance is mismatched. If anything, get a FAST E92 or E93, Crane LX 92 or Pertronix Flame-Thrower HC coil. They are all epoxy set and designed to work with CD ignitions. They are square and I have mounted them on the inner fender and have even fabricated a flat "table" mount to fasten it to and screw it place of the canister coil (I can send pictures).
     
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  12. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    /facepalm - My mistake! I took a quick look at my wiring before making the post and fell for an optical illusion. The coil negative is connected to the MSD 6AL, that black wire that looks like its connected to a stud on the intake is for the electronic choke :) I just re-did all the wiring too, it was just one of "those" days I guess.

    If you have a spare dust cover I'll buy it from you. I was able to find a cap & rotor at NAPA under PNs ECH AL162 & ECH AL163. But no joy on the dust cover. Please send pics of your mount set up, I'll take a look.

    I never really thought about "coil compatibility" before but wouldn't you know it, there's a chart from MSD which lists which popular coils are compatible with the various ignitions. Attached. Their chart does indicate that an Accel 8140 is compatible - though not "preferred". Spoiler Alert...the MSD coils are preferred.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  13. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 Y-Block King

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    Dust cover for Prestolite distributor: p/n 493084C1 or IDN-17.
    Prestolite Dust Cover 493084C1 or IDN-17.jpg
     
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  14. 2dafloor

    2dafloor Farmall Cub

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    Golden with ignition you should always ground back to the source AKA the battery. I dont think that your problem but it helps.
    I have seen 170 degree coil temps under the hood before so it would be very hot to the touch.
     
  15. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    Did some digging online today for the dust shield. Only thing close was this BW part for 70's era Jeep AMC with a Prestolite. Any chance this part number works: BWD C189 ? Looks right.


    Will call around to Light Line Dealers next.
     

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  16. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 Y-Block King

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    Yes, I'd bet that is the same part.
     
  17. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    @1975IH200 I'll buy that part as an experiment, would be good to know if that's an alternate part number for this, but I'd need a "real one" to compare it with. @jordandoc Think you could mail me one to compare with if you have extra? I'll mail back.
     
  18. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 Y-Block King

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    If it fits your distributor, then it fits your distributor.
     
  19. TheGoldenGreek

    TheGoldenGreek High Wheeler

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    Perhaps. But if we're going to suggest this PN as an alternative to the ones already identified, it would be prudent to compare it to a known working part.
     
  20. jordandoc

    jordandoc Binder Driver

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    Looks exactly like it! I believe the only difference in the Presolite distributor for the Jeep would be the bottom half which incorporates the shaft and shaft housing. The top and "guts" should be the same.
     

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