Ignition help - Frustrated

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Hutch, Jun 25, 2006.


  1. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    I need help! I have been trying to get the scout to fire up to no avail. I was having trouble with no spark at the coil. Today, I checked my wiring again, compared it to another scout with the same set up that I am trying to run (remote starter solenoid, Pertronix, but a 345 instead of a 304) and to all the wiring diagrams in the shop manual and had a little luck but not enough to get it to fire. I am still not getting a spark at the coil, except for one exception...
    when truning the key off, I will get one spark from the coil wire (which incidently it quite strong and shocking :rolleyes: ) This was first experienced when testing the coil by pulling the coil wire from the distibutor and grounding to the enginge. When cranking I got nothing, but when the key was turned to the lock position it fired one spark. With a timing light on the coil wire, there is nothing at all until again shutting the engine down, when I get the same single spark. Wire to positive side of coil reads 12.6 V, until cranking when it drops to 9.5-10 V or so.
    So far the only good thing to come out of this problem is a new digital multimeter!
    Any ideas on what is happening here?
     
  2. George Womack

    George Womack Y-Block King

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    It's possible that your ignition switch is faulty, and is sending current to the ignition circuit only when the key is in the ON position and not when in the START position. Disconnect the ignition wire from coil + and connect a test light or voltmeter between it (the wire) and ground. Then check for voltage with the key in both positions. As another test you can run a jumper from battery + directly to coil + and see if it starts then.
     
  3. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    Don't know if I'm going to be helpfull or not but does your remote solenoid have 4 posts... 2 large on the outside at 180 deg to each other and 2 smaller posts on the face? the battery cable hooks to one large os post and the other hooks to the starter? one of the small posts hooks to the start wire?

    If these answers are yes (here's where I'm not sure about a 77 Scout) but some starting circuits require a second wire attached from the 2nd small post on the solenoid to the + side of the coil. This provides 12v during cranking only. Then the 1st small post provides 12v during running.

    If you have this type of solenoid I hook up the second wire and see if it makes a difference in starting the engine.

    HTH
     
  4. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    Thank you George,
    I will do these tests tonight and see what I get, I'll post up tomorrow with the results.
     
  5. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    Tim,
    I do have the four post solenoid, but was under the impression (which may be the problem!) that w/ an electronic ignition the 4th post wasn't used. I did put the voltmeter on that post during cranking, but I can't recall currently what happened! I will check that out tonight too. I wonder if that post (labled I) has no voltage if that is an indicator of a faulty ignition switch as well? It would be nice to have it be such an easy fix. Thanks for the help.
    Ryan
     
  6. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    Ryan,
    George's tests are the right ones. You've got to have 12v on the start wire at the solenoid which clearly you have since the engine is turning over. You've also got to have 12v at the +coil wire in both the start and run posiition. If you don't have 12 on the coil + wire in the start postion but you do in the run position then the 2nd wire from the solenoid may be of help although you may still have a problem with your key switch.
    The jumper wire from the + post of the battery will help diagnose this problem but you cant leave it in place. So if you hook it up and your engine starts, d/c the jumper and the engine should continue running, if not then, you don't have 12v on the switched + coil wire.

    Good luck
     
  7. timpage

    timpage High Wheeler

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    This diagram may be of help since it sounds like youre using the Ford style starter solinoid. This is the way mine is hooked up on my 1200C, and I do have electronic ignition (Pertronix Ignitor).

    HTH
    Tim
     

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  8. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    Alrighty,
    Had a few friends stop by unexpectedly the other night so I put off testing things til last night.
    I do have the ford style solenoid.
    When the key is on, I have 12.6v at the "S" terminal of the solenoid and at the ignition wire to the coil.
    With a voltmeter between the coil and a ground, I get only 9.6-10v :confused:
    The "I" terminal gets no voltage in any position.
    A jumper from the battery to the coil produced no results. Though I was doing that test by myself ant couln't turn the key and look at the voltmeter at the same time.
    The coil is new.
    I'm going to try to get a friend to come over and keep trouble shooting with me, but any additional ideas or input based on these test results would be great.
    I am starting to think bad solenoid or coil, but this is only a guess, as I am admittedly ignorant about the electronics of the scout. Trying to change that though :eek:
    Thanks.
     
  9. ScoutmanSV

    ScoutmanSV Y-Block King

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    Stock '77 had a resistance wire to the coil, IIRC, & you won't get 12v+ at the coil with the resistance wire. Stock had a 12v wire from the solenoid to the coil only for starting.

    Simple fix > 35 amp toggle, couple feet of 10/12ga wire & a Wells C819 coil (w/supposed internal resister). Tap off the bat +, mount the toggle, run off it to the coil + side & turn it on when you start/run the vehicle. Just remember to make sure it is turned off when not running or you'll fry the Pertronix.

    Works for me in 2 SII's w/Pertronix & 2 w/points. Coils seem to last 10 - 12yrs/100k - 150k mi & points ~25k. The Pertronix are only ~1yr old so too soon to tell how long they'll last .... so far so good tho'. :D

    Sounds like a bad ignition switch & the (ford) solenoid wiring .... maybe a coil going south too.

    HTH,

    :cool:
     
  10. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    So, let me ask you.... when you get 12v at the S terminal, where are you measuring? With the key inthe ON postiion, the S terminal should show 12v if measuring between the S terminal and the B+ terminal on the solenoid but not between the S terminal and ground. The S terminal is where you hook up the "start" wire from the key switch..... is that what you are doing. The I terminal should show 12v measured between the it and ground only with the key in the start position.

    One other thing, did you make sure that your solenoid is well grounded?
     
  11. jeff campbell

    jeff campbell Lives in an IH Dealership

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    tim,the solenoid is PRE-GROUNDED,bolted to the starter ,if that's what your implying.jeff :eek:
     
  12. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Maybe not.
    ?????
     
  13. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    He says he's using a remote solenoid. I'm picturing it mounted to the firewall. It should automatically ground with the mounting screws thru the sheetmetal but maybe not. it's just a thought. You know how notorious Scouts are for loss of ground at the body panels.

    I hope he answers back with which terminal he's hooking the start wire to.

    One other thing I just thought of... I wonder if he installed a buss bar down at the starter? Hummmm
     
  14. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    Yes, Remote solenoid mounted to firewall. Grounding could be it, I will ensure that it is well grounded tonight.

    I get the 12v reading between the remote solenoid and the ground (Incidently I have sometimes been using the screw that holds the remote solenoid to the fire wall as the ground), I have not checked to the B terminal on the starter solenoid. I will also do this tonight.

    Buss bar is installed on the attached starter solenoid at the starter.

    Just to clarify, the sarter turns the engine over strongly, but I am getting no spark.

    Thanks for your ideas and thoughts, if nothing else, my hope is being renewed. I was about ready to toss a match on it the other day. Now I am confident I can figure this out with everyones help.
     
  15. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    I hate when I do this. I've gone off on some tangent that has nothing to do with your problem. Sorry... at least we know your solenoid is hooked up right.

    Lucky for me, I don't know jack about a Pertronix. But lot's of others do.
     
  16. Hutch

    Hutch Farmall Cub

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    That's ok Tim, At this point I would suspect anything! Maybe it is a low tire pressure problem :rolleyes: .

    I'll be taking a good look tonight after I get back from the fireworks stand. Time to start stocking up for the 4th :D woo hoo!
     

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