Help me walk through diagnosing a starting problem.

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by bdgn01, Apr 4, 2011.


  1. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    Scoutboy, thanks for the clarification. Please excuse me for being dense here.

    The screwdriver goes from the large post (where I've got the battery cable coming in) across to the smaller 'S' post (on the far side of my starter). Correct? (Last night, in the dark, I didn't see the 'S' terminal. I just did some hunting for a picture of a clean, non-grease-covered solenoid front, and the light bulb finally went on).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  2. blueblur1984

    blueblur1984 Farmall Cub

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    "When I say no juice, I mean that I'd have idiot lights and radio but no response from the engine. No click, no grind, nothing."

    I had this EXACT problem on my scout II last month. I did the starter solenoid, battery, bhc and none of them fixed my issue. Finally I traced the wire from the starter solenoid, through the firewall and it wound up at a relay. This relay had three wires...one to the solenoid, one to the ignition and the third to the transmission. I replaced this relay and refilled my transmission and now it starts like a champ.


    Now I just need to put my dash back together. :confused:
     
  3. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Auto equipped rig right? OP has a 4speed, so your issue doesn't apply to his.
     
  4. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    OK, when I cross the two posts, I get a lot of pretty sparks but nothing else. I verified that I'm touching the main post (where all the leads come in) and the one marked 'S', which has one wire going out (it's on the top in the picture above). Thoughts?
     

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  5. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I see a crap ton of corrosion on all the solenoid terminals and the blue/green wire looks all twisted up like a tootsie-roll candy wrapper at the terminal end. I think were I you, I'd D/C the battery and all wires from the solenoid. Then remove the starter/solenoid as one unit for some thorough terminal cleaning. You can bench test the starter out of the vehicle with a battery and some jumper cables. That way you'll be able to rule out the starter and solenoid with an out of vehicle pass/fail test. If it passes, you can then re-focus your attention on the extremely suspect circuitry. Wouldn't it be nice to rule out those two components for sure?
     
  6. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    OK, that's my next course of action. I'll keep you all updated, and thanks for the advice!
     
  7. BennettMoe

    BennettMoe Farmall Cub

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    Bill, If you are still stuck this weekend, I might be able to come over with an extra starter and solenoid to test it with. Hopefully I'll have my trans leak figured out by then too.
     
  8. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    Bennett, as always, if you have the time, I have the beer. I'd much rather learn at the feet of the Jedi than just fumble around on my own.
     
  9. 250gibson

    250gibson Binder Driver

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    You likely have a bad solenoid, bad starter, or both. Try jumping the large B post on the solenoid to the unmarked post directly across from it. If the starter spins without engaging, then it is a solenoid problem, probabally corosion on the contact plate. Which may be able to be cleaned off by R&Ring the solenoid.

    Note: Judging from the picture, the starter/solenoid combo is not the original OEM delco starter. It appears to be the common autozone and the like chinese made replacement for such, which are very prone to failure
     
  10. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    I pulled the solenoid last night, and meant to take a picture this morning, but didn't have time. It's pretty lousy with corrosion, and has no markings of any kind whatsoever. So I think this may be a starter/solenoid replacement mission now.
     
  11. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Looks like typical Nixon Administration era to me.
     
  12. BennettMoe

    BennettMoe Farmall Cub

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    I should have a used spare in the garage from Hanky's old engine if you want to go that route. I'm free on Saturday until about 2:30 or so.
     
  13. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    Bennett, let me know what time you want to get started and I'll have coffee, doughnuts, breakfast, and/or lunch ready. I can't get a decent starter here until Monday, most likely–the local parts store is selling some kind of off-brand, so I'll give you money for the spare. Just let me know what you prefer. The offer is extended to anyone else who'd like to join us!
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    ---Tell ya what. Let me know what time and I'll have some coffee in me and start installing my starter as well. Can't be there but no reason why we can't be working on the same stuff at the same time. Then we can see how many starters go out in the next couple of weeks, with the IHs having some sort of telekinetic network like they do. Always seems when a part goes out, it goes on a bunch of others' vehicles. Look around, the first domino was pushed a couple of weeks ago... lol.

    ---Reading over replies causes interest in the NSS Relay comment. While there may be a jumper on the NSS Relay, StoneThrower has a T-19 and the reason I found the NSS Relay and Horn Relay was the same and 1st mentioned it here, was because I had to swap them... However, I cannot verify that unplugging the NSS Relay will prevent starting on the M/T system, cause mine is presently being worked on. The point is, the NSS Relay is installed and hooked up, so I won't say to ignore the possibility.

    ---Swapping starters sounds like a great idea. I like that idea more than buying new and setting the old one aside and again, I won't give another core part to Cardone or any other rebuilder who cleans their parts with anything but a hot tank. This media blasting crap is going to make all of our parts extinct, not endangered. Like I've said before. With each rebuild for Cardone a housing is coded with a color dot (I have not yet received word on color coding) and after so many rebuilds, when the housing with x-color on it comes in, it gets torn down and thrown in the recycle bin. IH is not on the list, so the melted down core will go toward a POC or some other vehicle which is not in the IH family.

    ---My local rebuilder uses a hot tank, just like the trans man B. Arrington does (local drag racer as well). A big dishwasher of sorts that would probably scald the skin of a turkey. The hot wash does not blast away any metal, so a core can be rebuilt until it naturally wears out or breaks. He charges me $35 for a Scout starter, gives it a year warranty. From the first turn of the key, you can tell the starter has been rebuilt to spec. It just sounds right on, or... "dead on nuts". With the manuals, a collection of bushings, brushes, feeler gauges, etc., anyone can rebuild one, as it only takes about a half hour. Tell you what, the only thing the line-workers from NAPCO (main company contracted for Cardone) have out of the tools I mentioned... is the half hour.
     
  15. blueblur1984

    blueblur1984 Farmall Cub

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    Ah...good point.
     
  16. Dennis Bernth

    Dennis Bernth Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't have a four speed, but I'm taking note of Thomas' post and giving him credit for knowing what he's talking about.....I would assume (yeah, I know) that the manual trans Scout II's have an NSS/reverse light combo switch, so it would make sense that they would also have the same relay under the dash as Thomas says. It would also make sense from a production standpoint for IH to use the same basic wiring harness for all of the Scout II's, and leaving off the NSS relay for just the manual tranny versions would be a pretty big change in the wiring, especially since they should have an NSS anyway. So before you eliminate that NSS relay out of hand, a dive under the dashboard may be appropriate to see whether or not one is there. As Thomas said, it's same/same as the horn relay, so if your horn relay is good it's an easy swap to see if that fixes the problem.
     
  17. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    With many thanks to Evil Mr. Clean, I think my starting issue is resolved. He picked me up on Saturday morning and we did a junkyard run to find a radiator for his pickup. (for anyone interested, there's a 70's series pickup and an 80/800 Scout with an 8-cylinder up in Mt. Airy at Crazy Ray's). Then we headed back to the house to swap out my starter with a spare he had in his stockpile. With a minimum of fuss (that top bolt is a PITA to get a wrench on cleanly) we put the used one on, cleaned up all the terminals, tightened everything down, and she fired right up. So I'm guessing the solenoid died. We then compared ride height with his new lift/spring combination before breaking for lunch.

    Many thanks to everyone who offered help, and Mr. Clean for his time and assistance!
     

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  18. BennettMoe

    BennettMoe Farmall Cub

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    My pleasure! Glad it worked out. :yes:

    Those pics make our trucks look just about the same height, but when you were beside me on that pavement, you've defintely got me by an inch or two. Those Triangle springs definitely have a little more arch than my Rough Country's, though I have extended shackles and you don't. You score a slight advantage in tread depth, but otherwise they are set up the same: 2" body lift with good bushings, 4" spring lift and 32" tires.

    Time to go mudding! (that it, once I solve this transmission leak thing). :censored:
     
  19. bdgn01

    bdgn01 Farmall Cub

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    Yeah, we need to park them on a level patch of pavement and shoot a comparison picture to show the difference in spring/shackle/tire size. The differences made us both scratch our heads until we figured out what we were looking at!
     
  20. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Glad you got it going again. Don't scrap that old starter. Like you say, it may just be a solenoid issue. Even if the starter is shot too, it's worth having rebuilt by a competent shop. I still maintain that you have a number of obvious (and probably some not so obvious) wiring issues lurking and poised to rear their ugly heads at the most inopportune time. Hopefully you plan on addressing those properly in the not too distant future.
     

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