Help! Engine rebuild is overheating...

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by jonny05, Mar 21, 2016.


  1. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,729
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Daze Crick, Jefferson
    That's the same water pump I have. The 392 has identical external dimensions of a 345. Both of which are slightly taller and wider than a 304, but no longer from front to back. Here are the attributes of the two Hayden clutches as previously discussed:
    p/n 2705 "Standard Duty" - Overall length is 3.11 inches. Fan mount height is 1.53 inches
    p/n 2747 "Heavy Duty" - Overall length is 3.34 inches. Fan mount height is 1.62 inches.
    According to those specs straight from the Hayden catalog, the difference in overall length between the two is just a fuzz under 1/4th of an inch, and roughly 1/8th of an inch less than what I mentioned to you previously. Based on that, I'm estimating that I have approximately 3.9 inches of clearance between my WP and the Champion radiator in the standard mounting configuration. Why you would have any less than that same figure beats the living hell out of me.
     
    hunch98 likes this.
  2. IHbuff

    IHbuff Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    SE Alberta Canada
    I just breezed through this thread quickly, no one has mentioned timing as far as I could read.. 15 degrees retarded??!! Thats retarded!!! It should be at 15-20 ADVANCED with the vacuum advance hooked up. No vacuum should be TDC to 7 BTDC. My 345 has 22-25 degrees at idle IIRC. I think we found your problem....

    When I redid my 345 it took a solid 10 mins to get to temp (170) the first time
    will take up to 20 mins if its less than 10 degrees (C) outside. you have a HUGE but simple issue I think, Fix the timing and I betcha it will cool off!

    Let us know!



    If someone mentioned this already, sorry!
     
  3. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,729
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Daze Crick, Jefferson
    Yes, it has been discussed and the OP had his retard and advance mixed up.
     
  4. IHbuff

    IHbuff Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    SE Alberta Canada
    Oh. my apologies then. I only had a moment and as such I read the thread quickly. I shall read it in its entirety before I try offering more advice. Thanks and good luck!
     
  5. scoutin1

    scoutin1 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2002
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Surrey, BC
    I have a friend running a 392 in a 80 Scout II with two electric fans side by side that basically cover the radiator. Unfortunately, I don't have specs for you but I do know he has never had overheating issues. Your problem may be fan size as 12" seems a little small.

    One other thing to look at is whether your water pump pulley is the correct size. Was it or the belt modified in a way that could cause it to have lower rpm's thereby creating less water flow?
     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Newport News, VA
    Might be a bad seal between head and block or a crack that lets combustion gases into the coolant.
    How about renting the radiator pressure tool from AZ? Pump it up and see if it leaks down.
    Seeing it overheats quickly makes me think it is not a bad fan-clutch-radiator.
     
    IHbuff likes this.
  7. Tom Mandera

    Tom Mandera Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Messages:
    4,399
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Helena, MT
    I'll offer a free option.

    This last 392 I built, was the first IH I remember building that DID NOT overheat when I first fired it.

    Until now, they ALL needed TWO 10 minute break-in periods, because they overheated during the 2000rpm cam break-in.

    Why?

    I build tight engines. :D

    After the two break-in runs, then some driving, it would start to get hot from time to time - and yes, started to drive me a little nuts trying to solve it.

    But then, just when I was ready to do something drastic - they would stop overheating.

    Why?

    The rings seated, and the excessive initial wear (known as "break-in") stopped adding unnecessary heat to my engine, and the whole rig just settled down and got to work.

    It took a few thousand miles. Maybe 10 or 20 on some of the engines.

    This latest 392 I built is on the sloppy side in many places - it was "supposed" to be a re-ring, but these things tend to get out of hand in my shop..
     
  8. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Newport News, VA
    Tom, I rebuilt my 392 Palmer IH and started it up a few days ago. Runs with no blowby. I used the moly rings. Engine is .030 overbore, I did not bore it out, this was done maybe in the 1980's. . I sprayed the piston skirts with KG Gun Kote. Built up layers til I went from .006 and .007 clearances to .003. Gun Kote is a phenolic resin good to 730* F
    I also ground out the exhaust ports in the heads. There are some videos of it running, plus showing clean exhaust out the back of the boat, This is a tight motor, oil pressure is up there, at 1000 rpm it is at 40 psi hot.
    At 1000 rpm, it burns 1/2 gallon in 20 minutes of run time, so this is 1.5 GPH with no load.
    Has anyone done any fuel consumption tests per hour at various rpm?
    Engine starts easily.

    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=NVZlQTNmblNxOXJUd1JHT3dMUDRCR0EtQ2ZmeGxR

    This port side reverse rotation 392 I rebuilt a few years ago.
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=MXFfUjIzY0NXd080dWVyeTNQX0V3a2J2bWk3cGRR
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  9. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    Ok, well i finally got back into it after a busy family and work schedule, as well as, i called the engine manufacturer. They looked up and promised that the correct intake and head gaskets were installed on my IC motor after looking up my build. So that will at least goto the bottom of the list. As for IH Buff, yes, i borrowed a real timing gun and brought it to 4 advanced. no changes.
    Ok, after running it a couple times today after work, took out my fuel pressure regulator, and reinstalled the gauge, I get 4-5 psi. good there. This is where I found a little problem. I squeezed the top hoze and the pressure is tight. I can not collapse it after a few minutes of running. any of the 3 that is. Too much pressure it seems, and when i get to about 210-220, right before i shut it down, the lower hose starts dripping, which proves there is too much pressure. the engine manufacturer had me take off the cap, just half way, to see if it makes a difference (i think he was going for exhaust gases, but no difference and no bubbles in reservoir.) I also dont see a change in reservoir level... I am starting to think, Scoutboy74, that this champion radiator cap is not relieving pressure. **Mind you, there is still no thermo in it from the last time we talked.**

    Also, I looked at some very old pictures I took of my motor before I tore it down. It really looks like the original radiator is more recessed into the front clip than this champion. It looks like this champion sticks out closer to the motor. Thats why I think I have the clearance problem.
     
  10. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    Thank you for everyone's input! its at least given me some confidence to keep moving.
     
  11. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    Pulley is original, there is no AC any more, not even sure if the belt went around that way or not. I wouldn't think that would make a difference tho. It ran without overheating before rebuild, and no AC still.
    I am figuring that the fan IS too small, I just don't think it is causing the overheating under 10 min.
     
  12. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    forgot to mention, the engine manufacturer recommended that I buy a vacuum pressure gauge, and time the motor off of direct intake vacuum pressure. I was going to buy this and give it a try even though i think being 4 adv is close enough, and shouldn't cause this type of problem. just to make sure though, im going to do it.
     
  13. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,729
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Daze Crick, Jefferson
    Is there some type of spacer between the Champ mounting brackets and your core supports on one or both sides, or do they sit perfectly flush? I did have to trim some tin in a couple areas of my core support to relieve some interference, especially on the passenger side. There is a lengthy Champion radiator thread floating around this forum discussing the need to do this in many cases since the Champion is not an identical clone of the stock radiator in every dimension. It was obvious to me during my install that I would have to do this to make it fit properly, so I did. That's what it took to get the Champ brackets to sit flush against my core support on both sides. Installing some sort of spacers between the brackets and the core support to take up the space was something that held no merit for me. Another thing I did was swap the Champ rad cap in favor of my Stant Lev-R-Vent 13# cap which was nearly new. I don't have any reason to believe that the Champ cap was faulty. This was simply a preference thing on my part since I like the pressure release feature of the Lev-R-Vent style.

    I agree with you that 4 degs advance should be just fine for this engine and should by no means be inducing the overheat.
     
  14. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    No mods needed for the radiator to sit flush. it is just obviously closer to the motor, like the mounting brackets on the radiator are just shorter "L"s. tempting to sell the radiator and buy original, i definitely don't want to do that.
    just bought that radiator cap.. after you said that about buying the cap, i realized that maybe my cap IS a little hard to get on and off. (cap which came with radiator)
     
  15. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,729
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Daze Crick, Jefferson
    I see. You know, I considering hiring a top shelf welder in my hood to relocate the brackets for me. Then I realized doing that would be at the sacrifice of my precious fan to radiator clearance and quickly dismissed that notion from my mind. Probably would have been a spendy mod anyway. The tin trimming didn't cost me anything but a couple hours of my time to achieve a perfect fit and keep the clearance.
     
  16. BinderBookie

    BinderBookie High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2014
    Messages:
    2,647
    Likes Received:
    1,258
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    A Farm in Ohio
    I doubt that too.

    Have you tried driving it? Even a short distance? Might be worth a try to see if things change in any way.

    It's really coming right back to something internal or water flow related. Even skilled and knowledgeable engine builders can make mistakes. Of course with this came, you have to play Sherlock Holmes and follow his, "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth." credo.

    Continued wishes for a solution!
     
  17. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,729
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Daze Crick, Jefferson
    Along a similar vein, what happens if you run it with the rad cap off?
     
  18. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,708
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    La Habra, Ca
    I'm an old school guy, never liked electric fans. I know, some people think they're great, others, not so much. Personally, I'd put a stock fan and shroud on it. I'm not a big fan of those new fangled aluminum radiators either. I'm just not sure they have enough capacity for a 392. Those engines didn't come in Scout's so I think with the smaller radiator, it's gonna run a bit hotter. Not saying that's your heat problem but I know at least 2 guys off the top of my head, with IC392's in their Scouts, one who had major heat issues until he scrapped the aluminum radiator and electric fans and went back to a stock 5/8- 3row & stock fan/shroud setup. Both guys I'm thinking of run this setup, neither runs hotter than 190-195 under normal conditions.
    Many rebuilds ago, I decided I would never fire a new engine without attaching mechanical OP & Temp gauges to it first. Not cheap gauges either. With the OP gauge, you can run the pump with a drill motor and verify system pressure before you ever turn the engine over. With the rocker covers off you can likewise verify flow to the top end. It's a good practice. Too late for that now, but the gauge will still give you valuable information. I also add a vacume gauge to the mix so I can monitor the engine. I have them, not in the dash but in the engine bay so I can keep an eye on things while I'm tinkering. I ended up liking this arrangement so much, I installed them permanently so now, I have all that information at hand all the time. Either for reference, verifying the electric dash gauges or tune up, it's a very handy tool to have.
    You obviously know a new build will run hotter than an engine that's broken in. I'd say, rejet your 1406 to 1409 specs for a while. This will give it more fuel but not so much that it will be overly rich. It should be happy. Have you checked your vacume lately? You should easily be able to get 17-18inhg immediately. That will improve as the rings wear in.
     
  19. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    I have been thinking about it a lot actually. Haven't yet, drive lines still not installed and neither is my kick down lever needs adjusting along with my shift cable. I think about it so much because of the slight possibility that there is an air pocket or something along those lines.
     
  20. jonny05

    jonny05 Farmall Cub

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2015
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    san diego, ca
    i ran it with it half open like i mentioned before, but not completely off. last time i went to start it up, it baffles me, i pulled the radiator cap and it overflowed immediately, like it was still under pressure from the last run... weird. i should try it thought just for S's and G's. I figure it would just overflow slowly, as temp came up. ill try and let you know.
     

Share This Page