Gold box to DUI swap questions

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Harry, Aug 12, 2017.


  1. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Hi All

    I just bought a 77 SSII it has a 345 it runs OK but sounds like it is missing on a couple of the cyls. nothing has been done to the motor in quite some time. I have a DUI dizzy for my 73 scout but I was wondering how easy is it to swap from gold box to DUI ignition. Besides the waterneck swap, do I just eliminate the entire gold box wiring, coil, and dizzzy? all I need is a 12V key on for the DUI.
    I have read alot of articles here on BP but nothing showing the actual swap.

    Thanks

    Harry
     
  2. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Let's stop you at the "sounds like missing on a couple cylinders". If this true, a distributor swap is unlikely to be the magic bullet cure you're looking for. First thing I'd do is find out for sure if I'm firing on all 8 or not. If not, then I'd further try to determine why the non-fires aren't cooperating. Could be lots of reasons why. Loose plug wire boots, faulty plug wires, fouled or faulty spark plugs...are but a few of the possibilities. If you find an issue like those that's easily corrected, you might find your engine is running just fine afterwards. The GB system does have a bad reputation, partially earned, but also partially overblown. Typically when they fail, you've got nothing. They don't just fail on two or three cylinders. So it sounds to me like yours is still working and you've got some other tuning related issue going on downstream from the GB. Does that make sense?
     
  3. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    yeah, I'm going to take a look at the plugs first cause they probably are fouling from the carb running too rich. I have tried adjusting it but really hasn't improved, its a 2210 but after I check the plugs and it doesn't seem better I have a 2300 sitting on a shelf that I will try out.
    I just got the scout 2 days ago, so yes it is running for now not like my 73... I really don't have any history of maintenance on the rig so plugs, are first, then carb.
    The plug wires look new they are Taylors, and I already looked at the cap an rotor and it is almost like new as well. scoutboy74 thanks for saving me some time. I'll let you know what I find tomorrow. Thanks again!
     
  4. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Sure. And I'm not trying to talk you out of a distributor swap either. It may come to that. But you clearly have other things to sort out before you cross that bridge. Actually, if your carb is dumping so much fuel that its fouling the plugs, I wouldn't waste my money on any new plugs until I had the fuel delivery issue resolved. Otherwise, you'll just be fouling the new plugs in short order and you'll be right back where you are now, only a few dollars less rich from the plug expense.
     
  5. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    If and/or when you decide to remove the Holley "Gold Box" electronic ignition system, you will need to accomplish the following:
    1. Disconnect the Battery (-) cable from the battery and set it aside.
    1a. Replace the thermostat housing with the thermostat housing that was supplied with the DUI distributor. Use two (2) new gaskets and sealant (not RTV). This is a good time to be sure your thermostat is the correct type (Robert Shaw) and temperature set point, or replace with a new thermostat. Refill radiator to replace any lost coolant.
    2. Open the plastic wiring loom that is located along the top of the engine, right hand side.
    3. Unscrew the four screws that hold the Gold Box on the firewall.
    4. Pull the Gold Box off the firewall and gently pull the wiring out of the loom with it. Go easy as the wires may be twisted around other wires in that loom (engine temp sender wire, choke power wire, etc.). You may ned to unplug the Gold Box connectors to assist in removing the ignition components. Disconnect the white wire that goes from the Gold Box to the firewall mounted DTM module.
    5. Unbolt and remove the ignition coil and mounting bracket.
    6. Remove the Holley distributor assembly. Retain hold down clamp & bolt.
    7. Go back to wiring: You will find one black wire, which will be a circuit #16 Black wire that is supplying power to the Gold Box. This is the wire that you will want to use as the 12 VDC power to the DUI. Cut this wire as long as possible so that it will reach the distributor. Attach the DUI connector to it. Close up the wiring loom.
    8. Install the DUI distributor, attach secondary wiring, attach the one primary wire with the DUI connector attached.
    9. Attach the battery (-) cable to the Battery (-) post.
    10. Start engine and adjust timing & idle speed.
    11. Top off coolant after one or two engine heat/cool cycles.
     
  6. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Nice write up! thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. I would rather drive her for now until winter comes...maybe a good winter project though...:shifty: OK gotta go pull the plugs and see what we have...I'll keep you guys posted. Again thanks!
    it's been only 23 years since I last drove a scout...man have I missed it! :thumbs up:
     
  7. Darrel

    Darrel High Wheeler

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    That #16 circuit goes through a block on the firewall that may or may not have a good connection. Also as I recall the wire is on the thin side behind the firewall. Point being you need to make sure you're supplying enough juice for your ign module. It will work, but maybe not at peak efficiency. Also read up on how to align the rotor with the compression stroke if you're not already familiar. Make sure the oilite is in place, not damaged, or spinning.
     
  8. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Ok back from the garage, the plugs were in finger tight, plugs look good but they were pretty wet, they looked almost new, so good cap, good rotor, wires in like new shape, and plugs good. on to the carb. So with the 2210 carb, at some point recently it was rebuilt, the acceleration module disconnected not working, the motor is a 304 not a 345 as I was told, not the end of the world still a good motor. So it will idle, but eventually it just dies out and that is what was happening the other night, I tried adjusting the carb, but no luck, I hit every stop light all the way home...stalling, I know there is alot on the 2210, some here are OK with it some are not, is it worth it to swap it out to a 2300 350 cfm, is that too much carb for the 304? either way definitely carb issue.

    Thanks All!
     
  9. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Yes its worth it. No it isn't too much carb. Is your '77 Scout exempt from under hood visual smog inspection where you live? That would be the only reason not to retain the 2210.
     
  10. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Yeah I ordered the 0-80350 version with the electric choke. Got a good deal. An no to visual emissions inspections, just depends where you go...lol. We'll see once it get here and hook it up hoping by friday it should be here.
    Thanks

    Harry

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    OK Did lots of work on the rig today first i had replaced a couple of the dash lights, replaced them with the ultra bright LED's. They look great and they are dimmable too.

    OK on to the carb swap, new Holley 2300 relatively easy install added new key on 12v power wire, used fuse splice from heater circuit. Hooked up fuel lines, replaced throttle cable, and gas peddle arm that was poorly welded by PO.

    Now time to fire up the motor....no start...
    So I checked plugs again had to regap to .030, I checked cap and rotor gave them a quick clean up, still wouldn't fire up....
    Then I checked for spark I put and inline tester and with a timing light off of coil wire and it has a very weak / yellow spark and the timing light fired but was missing on a couple of cycles, ran threw wires... its a spaghetti mess but nothing that LOOKed bad or broken wires.

    Then I went to check voltage at coil between the two leads off of the coil + and - I got a reading of 2.63 Volts....

    So I really need help where do I start with the Holley gold box ignition?
    The truck was running 3 days ago not good but running, now I can't get even so much as a sputter.
    2.63 V at the coil probably not good. So is it the GB module, or coil? or is it the wiring?
    Is there a diagram on BP of the fire wall connection circuits? esp #16 as I have read on here.

    Thanks All

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 11:31 PM
  12. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    I do not understand what you spliced into from the heater 12VDC+ ??
    The carb? Choke?
    Ignition?
     
  13. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Yeah, sorry for not being more clear long day yesterday, I added a fuse tap from the heater circuit to the carb...for the electric choke.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    Quite often, inside the plastic wiring loom, there is a factory lead for the electric choke.
    When not utilized, it is tucked away inside there.
     
  15. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    I really didn't pull apart the loom to check, I'll have to take a look. Thanks
    So I am at the point, do I swap out the holley and install the DUI? Really don't want to toss money for a gold box or a new coil. Unless there is a good way to check the GB and coil,
    Is there a diagram on BP that is more clear than the ih service manual? Dosen't make sense to swap out the dizzzy if the circuit #16 is not getting good power.
    What color is the wire for circuit 16? and is there a way to check for power? can I just use a voltmeter to get in the firewall connector?
    I have a decent multi meter I picked up from Harbor freight....
    Thanks for the help!:beer:

    Harry
    [​IMG]
     
  16. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    The Gold Box has five (5) wires:
    White - goes to DTM module on firewall OR it can be left unconnected.
    Red wire - goes to coil (+)
    Brown wire - goes to coil (-)
    Those two wires are in one connector (red & brown)
    Blue wire - goes to dizzy
    Yellow wire - goes to dizzy
    Those two wires are in one connector (blue & yellow)
    Inside the wiring plastic loom (you will have to open it up and look)
    is the black wire circuit 16. Follow it and you will see where it connects.

    Be sure the Gold Box is electrically grounded to the firewall with the attachment screws.
     
  17. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the help! nice!! Thank you!
    So now if I check circuit 16 and all is good, meaning 12V then it would be and issue with coil or GB?
    Now to check for 12V on circuit 16 just key on to check or cranking over?
    Thanks
     
  18. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    Test coil: disconnect coil wire, disconnect coil (+) and (-) wires.
    Test coil per IH Service Manual.
    Replace if bad, reconnect if good.

    Gold Box - Take to NAPA and have them test it. Let it heat up and test several times.
    Reinstall or replace as appropriate.
     
  19. Harry

    Harry Farmall Cub

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    OK did a little bit of investigating....
    I pulled the GB and coil I am going to bring them over to Napa in the morning to have them test both.

    I found a few things I have questions on, the white wire from the GB... now the wire that leads to it from the firewall connector has a connector of sorts and has been repaired in a couple of spots...is it OK to just cut the connector out and do a nice soldered connection and heat shrink tubing? Or does it really matter? since it leads to the white wire of the GB? and what is DTM?

    Now is that circuit 16? the one where is goes into two wire on the firewall connector?

    OK now I moved on to the coil, so I unwrapped all of the old brittle loom, and guess what? Is that the 12V electric choke wire?


    OK now I took off the leads to the coil to remove it and yep corroded not looking too good I'll clean those up nice and add some dielectric grease to those...
    Took off the GB from the firewall...the ground looked ok needs to be cleaned up...but what about behind the GB on the firewall should I clean and scuff it up for that one screw add some dielectric grease?

    And last question looking at some pics and memory from my 73 shouldn't there be a ground strap from the motor to one of the two bolts on the firewall?

    Thank you for all the help! I really appreciate it, plus I am itching to drive it soon!:yes:

    Thanks

    Harry
     
  20. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 High Wheeler

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    Good work there. Clean all connections and protect as noted.
    Make proper wiring repairs as necessary.
    Get new plastic wiring loom from the auto parts store.
    Probable Choke wire in bundle: check if it has 12VDC with key "on" and 0 VDC with key "off". If it has 12VDC with key "on" attach it to choke and check its function. Remove recently spliced wire from heater circuit to choke. Be sure choke has a ground wire or is grounded internally if it does not have a separate ground wire.
    You can test the Ignition Coil with an ohm meter per IH manual CTS-2013-K, or info off internet, search for 12VDC coil. Very easy.
    NAPA can test Gold Box while you wait. IH manual reference is CTS-2665.
    DTM is Deceleration Throttle Modulator system module. IH Manual CTS-2733 explains it. It is a emissions device and many do not work after 40+ years. You may just want to deactivate it completely.
    Go ahead and add a ground strap to the block-to-firewall if you want to, can't hurt. Add one to frame if you want to. Good clean grounds are essential to the electrical system to function properly. Size '4' Gauge wire is good for these.
    Battery should be grounded directly to the block/cylinder head bolt. Disassemble and Clean that connection too.
    Upgrade your two battery cables from the IH original '4' gauge cable to '0' or '00' gauge cable is a plus.

    Three (3) pdf files attached. You can download & save them, print them, etc.
    You should get a IH Service Manual for your vehicle.
     

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