Fixing up Betsy - '74 Scout II

Discussion in 'Binder Builds' started by Bussy, Oct 9, 2018.


  1. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Although this is not going to be a complete build, I wanted to have a place to fully document everything I'm doing on this Scout and hopefully some of it will be helpful to others and probably help me later to see what I did way back when. A fellow Scout buddy recently purchased this Scout and afterwards realized it had more issues than he was led to believe so I'm helping him out by getting it back to a drive-able and safe state. Oh, and btw, I am definitely no expert on any of this but I have done a lot of this type work before but I'm still learning as I go so if anyone sees or reads something I've done that is wrong or bad, whatever, please speak up. This is one of the reasons I like BP so much is the learning atmosphere and helpfulness of everyone on here.

    On the list of to-do's:
    1. Replace axles - FRONT - currently SOA but front axle was not cut and turned and has a negative 5.5* caster. So I'm pulling the front axle and swapping in a cut and turned axle with positive 6* caster. This should fix most of the driveability issues like major death wobble. REAR - pinion points directly up to transfer case and has a standard U joint. If you've ever watched that old video on drive angles, you will know what this does to the rear diff gears, etc. So I'll be swapping out the rear axle with one that has a parallel angle to the transfer case.
    2. Replace stock knuckles - We are going to go high steer knuckles in order to get the front geometry between tie rod and drag link back to a suitable angle. It currently has some funky home made Z bar that although will "probably" work, it's pretty scary. So we will be using some Parts Mike high steer arms and some milled top knuckles for that.
    3. Replace 4" leaf springs and shocks - Currently there is a set of Rough Country 4" lift springs and Rough Country shocks installed. We will be bringing the ride height back down to a safer level using stock springs to lower the COG and make it a little safer for highway driving. I'm also recommending we go with Bilstein shocks.
    4. Electrical gremlins - When trying to start the Scout, you can turn the ignition key all the way forward and the motor turns over fine but never starts. When you release the key, it hits a spot past the ON position and starts right up. I suspect the problem is in the key cylinder but I haven't investigated it too much yet so who knows what I'll find.
    5. TBD - I have a lot to do already and I'm sure I will run into other issues along the way so I'll leave this as To Be Determined for now.
    I'll post a few pics of the Scout and day 1 of the axle tear down in the next update.
     
  2. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    A few pics so far:
    Nice looking Scout
    IMG_4054.jpg

    I don't think I've ever seen a Z bar like this one.
    IMG_4055.jpg

    Scary!
    IMG_4060.jpg
    Rear pinion angle
    IMG_4061.jpg

    IMG_4065.jpg
    Breaking down the wheel ends. I'll re-use these brakes and hubs
    IMG_4072.jpg

    Built in shims?
    IMG_4083.jpg

    The new axle going in:
    IMG_4088.jpg
    The old axle coming out:
    IMG_4089.jpg
    Decided since this Scout may be here a while, I better brace up the front. I've heard frames have bent while sitting a long time with the 345.
    IMG_4091.jpg
    Look maw! No legs or shoes!!
    IMG_4093.jpg

    As usual...more to come!
     

    Attached Files:

  3. 72soa

    72soa Binder Driver

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Oak Hill, FL
    Love the steering. I would go with a high steer unit using chevy knuckles. You can reuse the six bolt drum spindles and get chevy brakes.
     
  4. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Already got high steer knuckles, just shipped them off to get arms and have the old studs pulled. Evidently if you don’t have the right tool to pull them, you end up stripping the threads in the knuckle pulling them out, so I’ve been told. One still had studs and neither had ball joints so I just shipped them to Parts Mike and had them install ball joints, high steer arms, and confirm tops were milled correctly.
    28674F42-3F73-4920-A255-C888E830507E.jpeg
    1455BAC3-F4DD-481D-812B-9CB0518C8DFE.jpeg
    93C61E72-58CA-4538-9C97-F2F0537AA0A6.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

  5. jmait769

    jmait769 High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Las Cruces, NM
    Good to see the Binder Barn full of IH love!! WOW - that steering arm is insane!!! Yikes!!! If the rear axle is in good working order, and you are sticking with SOA, maybe a new drive shaft with a double-cardan yoke at the transfer case would work instead of replacing the axle?
     
    winchested likes this.
  6. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    I've considered that option but I'm not that familiar with them and/or vendors who carry them. What are the upside vs downside of the CV joints? Just browsing around, looks like there are several different types, etc. All new to me. I'm a good learner though so let me know your thoughts. I believe Randy Z. runs them in his with the pinion pointed directly at the TC. Thanks.
     
    jmait769 likes this.
  7. winchested

    winchested High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Delhi, ON, Canada
    No downside of the double cardan in my opinion. You need a CV yoke on the tcase output. Crown auto makes a decent option.

    Well maybe the only downside is the slip section is at the diff end.

    Seems most over built rigs you see run them.
     
    jmait769 and Bussy like this.
  8. jmait769

    jmait769 High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Las Cruces, NM
    I went with one from Tom Woods for the 69 but you will have to decide based on the angles and measurements you have. They have a pretty good article that better explains it than I could here: Driveline Geometry 101
     
  9. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Thanks Jay. I’ll read up on it. Got to be easier than swapping axles.
     
  10. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    So lot's has happened since my last update. One thing I learned yesterday was that I pulled a Dana 30 out of the front and didn't realize it until I went to swap diff covers. OOOOOpppps! Learn something new everyday. This Scout is supposedly a '74 and I didn't realize they still ran Dana 30s up front on that year model, I thought it changed in '73 but again I am learning more everyday about the Scout IIs. So the Dana 30 front with disc brakes and 3.73 gears will be up for sale paired with the Dana 44 rear with drum and 3.73 gears if anyone is interested. Not sure what kind of market is out there for the Dana 30. Anyway, I'm prepping the new axle now as it needs old shock mounts removed and replaced and welded on along with the rear axle as well. Since we went with the 5/8" thick U bolts and CPT plates and did away with the bent up stock U bolt plates the shock mounts need to be added. We'll most likely be going with the Bilstein 5100 series shocks.

    I finished replacing all the spring bushings with the Energy Poly bushings and swapped out the lift springs and replaced with stock Scout II springs and got the rear finished the other day and got the rear tires back on and set the Scout back down on the ground. Seems to have brought the height back down some and definitely reduced the previously extreme pinion angle. We'll need to drive it and see if the double cardan is necessary.

    I also got the high steer knuckles back from Parts Mike along with the steering arms and tie rod and drag link ends. Wow are these things heavy duty! I'll be assembling everything in the next day or so and will post up more pics when I can.

    Another item to be changed is the scary reverse shackle setup. Specifically the frame end side. There was only what looked like a bushing sleeve through the frame and it wasn't welded so it was basically just a bolt through the frame. IH Parts sells just the back half of their RS kit so I got that coming soon and will get a full size sleeve welded in the frame to accommodate new bushings. Also picked up some lengthened front brake lines since the stock length were previously installed. I'm surprised they didn't get yanked out on a full turn prior to now but I don't think the Scout has been driven much since the SOA work was done.

    A few pics:
    Beefy high steer arms and TR and DL ends. New ball joints, new spindle studs, new arm studs and sleeves.
    IMG_4246.JPG

    New old springs all cleaned up and ready for bushings and install
    IMG_4248.JPG

    What the frame end of a reverse shackle should look like
    IMG_4250.JPG

    What this one looked like
    IMG_4249.JPG

    IMG_4251.JPG

    And a few pics of the rear axle once all bolted up
    IMG_4263 - Copy.JPG

    IMG_4264.JPG

    IMG_4266 - Copy.JPG

    IMG_4267.JPG

    Still not a great pinion angle so we'll see what happens
    IMG_4268.JPG

    More to come!
     
  11. jmait769

    jmait769 High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Las Cruces, NM
    Nice work Tracy! :thumbs up: Your friend is going to end up with a correctly lifted and repaired Bada$$ Scout! :yes: Keep the pics and updates coming!
     
  12. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    More goodies showed up today. Just in time for a weekend of wrenching.

    Front brake lines, reverse shackle frame end kit, 5/8” U bolts for PS front, and new banjo bolts.
    1C4C6941-83AF-4E56-8282-6C340BC60D86.jpeg

    Getting these high steer knuckles and arms ready for install.
    F702C1DE-8F41-47B0-82F0-33D0137CE6C2.jpeg

    B5FE1F81-3615-449B-B3B0-B172A6672D1E.jpeg

    Mock up of shock mounts.
    4845D967-766B-4312-B148-55C4DFF65B07.jpeg

    More to come!
     
  13. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Got a few things done this weekend. I'm just about ready to roll the front axle back under the Scout, just need a little paint and it'll be good to go. I'm supposed to be getting in a few more parts today so by the weekend I expect the Scout to be sitting on all fours again. I'm sure Michael is ready to get his rig back. I had to put the rear back on jack stands again so I could get good measurements for shocks and that was really sketchy. The Scout is so tall I had to put two layers of 2x6 boards under the jack stands to get it high enough to get a full droop measurement. I could have taken the tire back off but I would still have had to put it on the jack stands anyway. I had my welder buddy keep an eye on everything while I was jacking it up and we were successful in getting the measurements after me quickly rolling under the Scout and measuring twice.

    I had a couple surprises along the way too. I went to swap out the diff covers because we didn't want to use the chrome one on the new axle so I went out to the axle rack and removed the original diff cover and when I went to put the chrome on in its place, it didn't fit!:taz: His original front axle was a Dana 30:nono: so back to the drawing board. For some reason I didn't think the '74 Scouts had Dana 30s, I thought they switched in '73 or so. All of the other 5 diff covers I had were pretty banged up and one even had a hole through it so this is how I fixed the problem.
    Clean it up and make it all shiny, inside and out:
    IMG_4284.JPG
    IMG_4285.JPG

    And scuff it up and no more chrome:
    IMG_4289.JPG
    This one still had a small dent that I was able to beat back into shape, sort of, but it ended up pretty nice.
    I got the arms installed on the knuckles per torque spec and then more cleaning and painting:
    IMG_4286.JPG
    IMG_4288.JPG
    IMG_4295.JPG
    IMG_4297.JPG

    During the disassembly, I noticed what I thought was a missing bolt in the caliper bracket, come to find out it was broken off and the PO evidently had tried to drill it out but failed miserably so another wasted hour drilling and tapping to get a new bolt in. That was fun! NOT.

    More to come!
     
  14. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Next item to repair/replace/fix was the back end of the reverse shackle setup. As you recall, it was way sketchy and unsafe so we got the replacement parts in and I got my welder buddy scheduled out for that and welding the shock mounts front and rear.
    IH Parts sends a drill bit and a hole bit for this but man that hole bit is hard to use and takes forever. This is one thing I hated the most. I ended up really banging up my wrist while drilling these holes in my frame when I did my RS.
    IMG_4291.JPG
    IMG_4292.JPG

    Sleeves mounted and ready for a weld:
    IMG_4293.JPG
    IMG_4294.JPG

    And done! Just needs a little paint and I'm calling it good.
    IMG_4298.JPG
    IMG_4301.JPG

    Next up were the shock mounts:
    IMG_4299.JPG

    He also cleaned up the spring perches since they lacked a good, penetrating weld:
    IMG_4300.JPG
    So I believe I just need a little paint and get everything rolled back under and mounted. Once the axle is in place, I'll reinstall the wheel ends, brakes, etc. Then measure for shocks and get them installed and then tie rod and drag link and send those measurements to Parts Mike for some heavy duty DOM tubes. I'll also have to send them the pitman arm to ream out for these heavy duty tie rod and drag link ends. And that should do it. I still have a few pics to take as I forgot to document the rear shock mounts and a few other things we've done to the Scout. So as usual, More To Come!
     
  15. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Got a few more things prepped for the axle install since my last update. lot's of cleaning and painting and measuring. And now I have 2 out of 3 of the proverbial blood, sweat, and tears while working on this Scout. I was wrestling with the threaded sleeves in the inner C when the wrench slipped and smashed my pinky into the yoke. I used two cans of brake cleaner on the axle, most of which went into the pumpkin to get all the crud out and made sure the gears and everything inside were clean and no debris. I got the pinion seal and nut and washer along with the lubelocker gasket the other day so that needs to be swapped out before rolling the axle under the Scout. I got the front half of the front springs installed but forgot to paint the rear shackles the other day so had to wait another day til the paint dries to hang the rear of the springs. It's always something. A few pics of the work this week:
    Everything gets a coat or two of VHT Roll Bar and Chassis Black Gloss, I love this paint. Super strong and doesn't require primer.
    IMG_4318.JPG
    IMG_4317.JPG
    IMG_4315.JPG
    Ouch!
    IMG_4316.JPG

    Rear shock mounts. I'll need to slide up under there and put a little paint on these too.
    IMG_4313.JPG
    IMG_4312.JPG

    Per instructions from those who have done a lot of shock mounts, I hung the shocks from the upper mounts and then lined up the lowers and tacked them in place. Double checked angles on both sides and made sure they were exactly the same. Then pull the shock out and burn it in. These ain't goin anywhere! They look like they are not equal but that is because the exhaust pipes are uneven and the angle of my pic - 1.5" from U bolt at top, 1" at bottom, 65* angle and parallel to floor at bottom of axle tube. I'm going to recommend a whole new exhaust system to Michael as this one is pieced together with all kinds of pipe, not very much of which is actual exhaust pipe material.
    Rear shocks are arriving on Friday along with new front bump stops. I'll get the front axle installed in the next day or so and get the wheel ends all put back together, measure for front shocks, measure for tie rod and drag link lengths, get the measurements off to Parts Mike and get the pitman arm reamed out for larger drag link ends and this work will be done...although I'm sure something else will come up in the meantime...always does.
    More to come!
     

    Attached Files:

    jmait769 likes this.
  16. BigRigg

    BigRigg Y-Block King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    483
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    West Fork, AR
    It's coming along great!!! Nice work!
     
    Bussy likes this.
  17. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    I got a few more things done on my 3 day weekend...one of the benefits of working for a bank...we get every holiday known to man. Got some more parts in on Friday, had a Hill Country Binder meeting on Saturday so I didn't really get started until Sunday. First I pulled the old pinion seal and replaced it with a new one, along with a new nut and washer. I got it torqued to 100 lbs but I'll have to wait until it is back on truck to get it to where it should be. I also got the lubelocker diff cover gasket installed and everything buttoned up. While I was in there and especially after pulling the pinion nut, I checked backlash and it was at .006, right where it should be. Gear pattern looked good but I forgot to get a pic. I had already wire wheeled all the diff cover bolts and tag so it looked really nice once all put back together.
    IMG_4327.JPG
    IMG_4343.JPG
    IMG_4344.JPG
    IMG_4345.JPG
    And after much discussion and a couple FaceBook posts on the hand made reverse shackle, we decided to go ahead and cut these off and put mine on from Blu. I had previously installed the full kit on Blu but I later decided to go with 2.5" springs so I was going to have to cut mine off anyway. So cutting the ones off Betsy was pretty easy, although one side gave me fits since the frame underneath was rusted out. I'll be welding/adding in a plate to remedy that before the fangs get welded in. I had to remove the bumper in order to get to the insides of the old hangers and was surprised how easy it came off. I'll be informing Michael that he should not let anyone pull him using this bumper as the PO had wallowed out the mounting holes in order for the bumper to fit and therefore there is only a small amount of cross member holding it on. If someone started pulling him, it would probably rip right out.
    IMG_4346.JPG
    IMG_4348.JPG
    IMG_4349.JPG

    And yesterday I finally got the rear shocks installed and before I did that, I got a coat of paint on the hangers so they wont rust. I actually ended up painting most of the rear of the axle to make it look purty.
    IMG_4350.JPG
    Then I started working on removing my front fangs and this was no easy endeavor. After a couple hours and not getting anywhere fast, I gave up and will get my welder buddy to cut it off with a torch. Too many tight areas to get to with a grinding wheel or cutoff wheel.
    IMG_4351.JPG
    IMG_4352.JPG
    More to come!
     
  18. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Continuing from my last update...Next I tackled the high steer knuckles. It is really fun to work on brand new parts, the bolts go on smooth and everything fits so nice. Got them mounted to the inner Cs and torqued per spec. 80 ft lbs on the bottom ball joint, 50 ft lbs on the threaded sleeve, and 100 ft lbs on the upper ball joint. The studs are extra long because we don't yet know if we will need a spacer. Won't know until we get the tie rod and drag link installed so I went ahead and bought long studs just in case. Evidently they are impossible to get out once in so this made the most sense. We can always cut them off if they are not needed. I did not torque the nuts on those studs, they are just on there firmly, again, in case we have to add a spacer.
    IMG_4354.JPG

    IMG_4355.JPG
    IMG_4356.JPG

    I also had Parts Mike press in all new spindle studs since one knuckle was missing them and the other ones were rusty.
    IMG_4357.JPG

    I started work on the wheel ends but it was already a long day and I was worn out and I finally gave out and headed to the house. I didn't get any pics but will do so in the next couple days. I fought with the brake caliper forever! I've disassembled two front axles lately and always figured I could reassemble with no problem but the brake caliper had me cornfused! I finally got up under it and realized the inner pad fit into the bracket and once I figured that out it dropped right in. Since the pads always fall out when removing the caliper, I just assumed they were just sitting inside the caliper. That's what I get for assuming. But good to go now, just gotta finish it all up.

    More to come!
     

    Attached Files:

  19. winchested

    winchested High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Delhi, ON, Canada
    You might have to grind the high steer arms for brake banjo bolt clearance. I had to do it to mine.
     
  20. Bussy

    Bussy High Wheeler

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,210
    Likes Received:
    482
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Gause, TX
    Funny you say that as I was just trying to figure out what I needed to do in order to get the brake line installed. I was thinking about clocking the caliper brackets one more spindle stud lower but not sure if it would be too low at that point. Do you have any pics of the grinding or finished product?
     

Share This Page