FDB / DHS and FEB / DHK Engine Thread

Discussion in 'Triple Diamond Trucks' started by Colin Rush, Mar 14, 2019.


  1. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    This thread will discuss and share information about the "big" inline gas engines used by IH from the early 1930s through the mid-1940s. I had originally started a thread asking questions about the FEB-648 engine back in 2004, and a little information was gleaned. Then I forgot about for 15 years. In light of recent inquiry from another Binder Planet member, I dug back into this subject. This time I found more information, and other sources. I will be sharing what I find here as I dig up more data.
     
  2. Greg R

    Greg R Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    Glad to see yore alive and well. Apparently the reports of yore demise were greatly exaggerated. ;)
     
  3. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    I've done a little research on these motors. I found that the term "Waukesha FEB" on the Waukesha Engine Historical Society website really doesn't research well. It is not the proper Waukesha numbering system that was used in that era.
    IHC FEB-648 engine equals the Waukesha 6DHK .... used in the IHC A-8 trucks and PA-100 Power units
    IHC FDB-525 engine equals the Waukseha 6DHS .... used in the IHC A-7 trucks and PA-80 Power units

    The million dollar question seems to be "Were the FEB and FDB motors Waukesha designed engines used by International or were they IHC designed engines that were only built by Waukesha on a contract basis?"
     
  4. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    The FEB-648 and the FDB-525 were essentially the same motor to look at and almost all the internal parts would interchange. The main difference is that the FDB had a smaller bore size of 4 1/2" versus a 5" bore in the FEB engine. Both motors shared the same stoke of 5 1/2".
     

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  5. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    The A-7 and A-8 trucks were in reality the same cab and chassis assembly with the only real difference being the A-7's were fitted with the smaller FDB-525 engine. The A-7 trucks were built from 1932 to 1937 which was the end of the FDB-525 motor production as well. The A-8's enjoyed a longer production span form 1932 to 1940. In the attached serial number list the "F" suffix denotes trucks fitted with tandem rear axles.
     

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  6. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    I decided a running tally list would be useful. The FEB and FDB gas powered A-7's and A-8's were not high volume sellers. These production numbers will not be exact as the serial number list shows the starting serial number for each calender year but doesn't account for the production on the final year.
    A-7...1932 to 1937....................121 units
    A-7-F (tandem)....1936 to 1937...12 units
    A-8....1932 to 1940...................522 units
    A-8-F (tandem)....1936 to 1937....21 units

    In 1937 the AR-626-F was introduced and replaced the A-8-F. It was only available with the FEB-648 engine. It would be the last IHC truck model to use this engine.
    AR-626-F....1937 to 1946.............59 units

    A little sideline note here. The A-8 (single axle) and the AR-626-F (tandem axle) had a diesel motor option in 1938....probably the 672 cu. in. Cummins HB 600.
    These models became the:
    AD-8....1938 to 1944............15 units
    ARD-626-F....1938 to 1944....77 units
    This should be a diesel with the exhaust stack and externally mounted air cleaner.
    IHC ARD-626-F.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  7. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    I wish I had something constructive to add to this but I don't really know anything about these engines. I like what I'm seeing though and hope the information keeps on coming.
    Would love to have one just sitting on a stand to admire. And a big Hall Scott too!!
    Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged at the lack of response.
     
  8. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    Thanks for the encouragement George. It wasn't too long ago that I knew zilch about these engines either.
    A slightly off topic post here but one I found interesting. Around 1940 International introduced the W series trucks that would phase out the A-8's and the AR-626-F's. I'm not very knowledgeable about the W's....would these be considered the first of the "Westcoaster" models? I came across the specification sheets for them while researching the FEB-648 engine and decided to add them to this thread. There are 2 spec sheets each for the three "W" models so will make a post for each so the attachments don't get jumbled.
    First up is the single axle W-3042-H. It had a GVW rating of 30,000 lbs. vs. the 24,000 GVW of the A-8. There were 5 engine options availabe to the potential customer. The standard was a 749 cu. in. Continental gas, 3 Cummins diesel engine variations and at the top of the horsepower heap was the Hall-Scott HS-400 gas at a whopping 1090 cu.in. displacement!
     

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  9. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    Yes, my understanding is the W series was the start of the West Coaster models. I know a guy with the big Hall-Scott engine but have not been able to talk him out of it. It is indeed huge!
     
  10. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    The next "W"series truck was the W-4064-H. It had a GVW of 40,000 which is slightly less than the AR-626-F which had a 42,000 GVW. It had the same 5 engine options as the W-3042-H. When the frame channel specs are compared the AR-626-F appears to be beefier which may be part of the reason the older "AR" survived until 1946.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  11. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    The last "W" series truck I have information for is the W-6564-OH. It comes in at an impressive GVW rating of 65,000 lbs. which is far above any of the "A" series ratings. The lowest HP Cummins diesel was dropped as an option for this model. With the 8:1 rear axle ratios available it sure wasn't the fastest thing on the road....Maybe intended for more Off Road use.
     

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  12. DT466

    DT466 Farmall Cub

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    Lots of interesting info! Only the 4064 used a worm gear rear axle, all the others were double-reduction drive.

    Dean
     
  13. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    So, to begin with, the International FEB engine is one and the same as the Waukesha DHK engine, and the International FDB engine is one and the same as the Waukesha DHS engine. That was probably the first thing that I wanted to get across to people.
     
  14. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    I was contacted by Binder Planet member John Culhane back in January of this year. John has a 1938 International fire truck. He found my old thread, and contacted me about finding more information about the truck and engine, and possibly a fuel pump. The engine that he has look like the photos that I had posted back when. He was of the opinion that what he has is an FEB-648 engine.

    Eventually I called John, and we spoke for a while, and I said that I would look into finding the engine information, and also the fuel pump. Someone (likely a prior owner) stole the ID plaques from the truck. They also had removed the fuel pump and lost it; it was not with the truck when John bought it at any rate. John sent me some photographs of his truck and engine. Among them was a photo of the mounting boss for the missing fuel pump.
    mounting boss.JPG

    I did some searches online for things like FEB, FDB, 648, 525, et cetera. It occurred to me that whatever was sold for use in the trucks also would have been sold in the tractor line and the power unit line. I searched for power unit info online, and found some scans for a power unit book called PU-5, which listed the PA-100. I started doing searches for PA-100, and found a listing on eBay for a fuel pump rebuild kit that was supposed to fit the PA-100 power unit. Per the ad:
    Brand: AC
    Manufacturer Part Number: FPA-19
    Fuel Pump Type: Mechanical
    Other Part Number: FPA-19
    Fitment Type: Direct
    Interchange Part Number: SERIES D FUEL PUMP, AC FUEL PUMP, SINGLE ACTION, 1521678, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, POWER UNIT, HEAVY EQUIPMENT
    Superseded Part Number: IHC, PA-80, PA-100

    Attached is one of the photos from the ad.
    Note that the mounting gasket appears to be the same diamond-shaped gasket that IHC used for many years on its smaller trucks.
    eBay fuel pump kit.jpg

    So, I knew the fuel pump was an AC fuel pump. I did more searching for fuel pumps, including the AC part number 1521678, and found a copy of the old 1951 AC fuel pump specification guide. (It is Form A-683, for identification purposes. I will try to post it elsewhere on the BP, but it is too large to post here.)

    On Page 25, I learned that when an original AC pump assembly number starts with an 85, 152, 153, the number of the replacement pump is just the last four digits. So, if the 1521678 pump was used on the PA-100 engine, that meant that the replacement pump number for the same pump was 1678. If I look on Page 8 of the listings for International trucks, I don't see a listing for the FEB engine. However, there is a listing for the 1225 or 1678 pump as a replacement for the 1932-1934 A7 and A8 trucks. If I look on Page 25, there is an entry for the 1521678 pump, with a recommended replacement being the 1678 pump. On the same page is an entry for the 1521225 pump, with the 1225 and 1678 pump being recommended as a suitable replacement. On Page 13 is a listing for the 1225 pump, which lists "see 1678" for major components. The entry for 1678 on the same page lists it as the replacement for both the 1225 and 1678 pumps. It also shows that it used a D-2 diaphragm, which meant that it is a D-series fuel pump.

    Attached is a detail that I had socked away on my computer. It shows a detail of the D-series fuel pump. Note that it is the standard-type of pump used by International on its trucks for many years. It has the same type of diamond bolt pattern used on the smaller trucks. It has the same type of glass bowl.
    D-series.jpg

    Going back to Page 13 of the AC fuel pump manual, it shows that the repair kit for that pump was sold less rocker arm, so I suspected that was specific to the FEB/FDB.

    At this point, I realized that the fuel pump was interchangeable between the FEB and FDB engines. I also knew that I was on the right track with respect to identifying the engine, and needed to get a copy of PU-5.
     
  15. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    I knew of several fuel pump rebuilders that I had used over the years. Back before the days of alcohol-augmented gasoline (pre-1990s), there were a ton of vendors that had NOS fuel pumps that they had bought from auto parts stores that had gone belly-up. However, when the fuel companies started making gasoline with alcohol in it, the alcohol reacted adversely with the elastomers, causing tons of failures. Many vendors sold their inventory, while other became rebuilders, and would only sell their NOS fuel pumps if they were rebuilt with newer rebuild kits with gaskets that they had made that could contend with the new gasoline. The numbers of rebuilders out there have dwindled, and many of them will only rebuild a customer-supplied pump. The problem was that John Culhane didn't have one to rebuild.

    I contacted several rebuilders, and only one said they could help. It was Then and Now Automotive of Weymouth, Massachusetts, which I had used myself a few years ago. I e-mailed the numbers from the AC manual and the photos of John's mounting boss to their customer service person, a helpful lady named Lisa Pawlik. She said that it was no problem, that they could piece together a pump that would work. I told John, and he ordered one almost immediately.

    Attached are the photos of the pump that they built. They did an excellent job. The only hiccup is that the rocker arm-to-pushrod geometry is a little off, so he can't bolt it up all the way. Lisa and John are working on getting that changed, once he is not so busy at work. However, based on more recent photos that I received, that fuel pump is exactly the same type and configuration as what was originally used. And the boss and pump flange match.

    The IHC part number for the fuel pump used on the FEB-648 engine and the FDB-525 is 28979HA.
    This is from two separate factory books, which I will share shortly.

    obverse.JPG reverse.JPG top.JPG bottom.JPG side.JPG
     
  16. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    I figured that there were other books out there, so I called Binder Books. I wasn't aware that they had been sold, and are no longer in Tigard, Oregon, but in Grass Valley, California as a part of IH Parts America. I spoke with Dave Bowman, and was pleasantly surprised. I was used to the stellar customer service that used to be provided by Carl Wiese and Jack Campbell back in the Aughts. Since they left, Binder Books customer service had slipped, quite a lot in my estimation. Whereas Scott Satterlund had been all about reprinting everything that any customer wanted, Cindi was not so inclined, and about five years ago outright refused to reprint a manual that I needed. She was more interested in selling toys and hats than books. However, Dave appears to be cut from the same cloth as Carl and Jack.

    I told him that I wanted to get a copy of PU-5, which he had.
    Unfortunately, it is not posted on their website, but it is a regularly-available item.
    A brand-new copy, prepunched for a three-ring binder, and shrink-wrapped with plastic is $21.95.

    I told him that I was interested in any other books that detailed the FEB engines, which he found.
    It is INT-3461, aka the Instruction Book for the Model AR-626F (with Air Brakes).
    Cost is $29.95.

    I ordered both, and had them within a week.
    They are both the same top-notch quality as Binder Books used to be.
    The artwork has been reworked and cleaned up to be clearer and easier to read, unlike some of their competitors that only sell xeroxed copies and do nothing to improve on the print quality.

    INT-3461 is a truck owner's manual.
    It includes a large fold-up lubrication chart for mounting on a wall
    It includes operation instructions, such as how to start the dual-ignition engine (magneto and distributor).
    It includes the engine servicing instructions, as well as for the rest of the truck.
    It includes the cutaway parts diagrams, and parts listings.
    In other words, it is everything that an owner of a truck that has the FEB or FDB engine installed would need to start and drive.
    Even if you don't have an AR-626F, the wall lube chart is cool enough to post on your garage wall as an IH historical curiosity.
    INT-3461.jpg

    PU-5 is a power-unit owner's manual.
    It covers both the FDB engine and the FEB engine.
    It covers gasoline-fueled engines, as well as natural gas-fueled engines.
    It includes operation instructions, including how to start.
    It includes the service instructions.
    It includes the cutaway parts diagrams, and parts listings that are actually more detailed than INT-3461.
    PU-5.jpg

    Anyone that has one of these engines (FEB, FDB, DHK, DHS) or a truck with them installed needs to buy these books.
     
  17. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    Holy crap Colin!!
    Your fingers must be bleeding from all that typing. Tons of information there.
    I knew Binder Books was going out of business, not that it had been sold and still operates. Last time I contacted them to offer up a book to copy I was politely turned down and told they were selling out so they weren't interested in any new books.
     
  18. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    A small truck detail I noticed. The AR-626-F manual listed above has a print date of 1-23-39. What caught my eye was that the truck is depicted with Budd Wheels. This 1938 specification sheet on the AR-626-F gives the wheel information as cast spokes. I"m going to assume this wheel change came about for the 1939 sales year. The "W" series were all fitted with Budds as well. Also of interest is the fact the GVW was upped considerably to 62,000 lbs. The AR's were fitted with a massive frame...14"x 3 1/2" channel 3/4" thick.
    AR-626-F (2).jpg
     

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  19. George Yingst

    George Yingst Farmall Cub

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    Knowing IHC, I can't imagine that if the person ordering the truck wanted Budd wheels instead of spokes, they wouldn't build it that way. Or vise versa.
    But then again, I really don't know anything about these brutes.
     
  20. NDiron

    NDiron Farmall Cub

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    George...it looks like you are correct about the customer being able to dictate which wheels he wanted on his truck. Here is a 1934 photo of a pair of A-8's working on the Grand Coulee Dam project that are fitted with Budd wheels. Advertising from this era specifies cast spoke wheels as standard equipment. IH A-8 Grand Coulee.jpg
     

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