Engine Rebuild Curveball

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by raleighrugger, Jan 20, 2010.

  1. raleighrugger

    raleighrugger Farmall Cub

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    Well I was thrown a curve ball yesterday when I finally pulled the tarp and unwrapped my 345 V8 I had picked up 6 months ago. Turns out that it was a 304 V8 not a 345 V8 like the guy I bought it from claimed. Now before I get reprimanded by all of you IH veterans, who have collected a wealth of knowledge over countless years, let me give you the back story.

    One month after buying my 75 SII (304/3sp manual/D20) I found a 345/TF727/D20 setup on eBay that I ended up wining for a whopping $50. I purchased it initially for the 727 since my girlfriend can't drive a manual and in the event she needed to drive the Scout, she'd be able to. Plus I figured that I could re-build the 345, and do some slight performance enhancements (4bbl or EFI/ignition/cam).

    Well after sitting wrapped up in a trap at the end of my driveway, and probably :censored: off the neighbors, I used my new 2-ton engine hoist to put in on an engine stand.
    [​IMG]
    Once out of the driveway and next to the workshop, I started to strip off the accessories and pull the valve covers & valley pan to get a better look at the valve train.
    [​IMG]
    When I pulled my valve covers off, I immediately saw a big 304 stamp on the top of the head. I quickly looked down at the block and sure enough, 304.
    Now at the time of buying this, I didn't know where to look to identify the motor, and for $50 for the the engine/trans/tc, who cares....

    Well now I do. I already have a 304 in the Scout and was hoping to go to the 345, especially since I'd acquired a 345 4bbl intake and rebuilt Edelbrock 4bbl carb before making this discovery.

    What should I do now? Should I go along with my previous rebuild/upgrade plans and use this 304? Which was really clean on the inside and was running when pulled. Or should I go out and look for an equally clean 345 to go over like I had previously intended.

    I'll be swapping in the 727 regardless of engine choice so here will be my Scout's drive train specs:

    D44's w/ 4.09 and Lock-Right rear locker
    D-20 Transfer
    S.O.A
    35" tires.

    This will be my all purpose rig, seeing both street and moderate off road use. I know it will never drive like a race car (I've got an E55 AMG for that), but I want to have enough grunt to drive to the mountains or pass people on the highway without having to floor it.

    Any thought's? Suggestions?
     
  2. scorp1us

    scorp1us High Wheeler

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    It says 345 right on the valve cover... Oh, but I guess not in your case. :oops:

    Seriously though I was turned off from restoring my Dad's '72 304, but you know, I wish I had. Cause its still a Scout, and plenty powerful at that.

    (Actually mine says "345A" on the driver's side valve cover.)
     
  3. Mark Pietz

    Mark Pietz High Wheeler

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    At least you have a hoist.

    I once took delivery on a 152 that was said to be a 196. So when the yard sent a guy over ito retrieve the obviously wrong engine, the two of us muscled the thing into the back of the pickup. I was young man of 28 and quite stupid, as I blew out a disc in the process. What was that, about 300 lbs. each?????

    No iron is worth that, even IH iron.
     
  4. Tim Potter

    Tim Potter High Wheeler

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    I'd look for a T-19 wide ratio 4 sp tranny and clutch to bolt up behind your 304 if it's in good condition and up to spec. Tell the girlfriend she needs to learn to drive a stick. Tell her it's sexy :punk:

    As for the 50 buck drive train, clean it, check the bearings for wear, put it back together and sell the whole shebang for the money to get the T-19. Or, sell the engine as an unknown.

    Why?
    1. easier to do

    2. better performance: A 304 with a WR tranny behind it will work as good on the trail than a 345/727. That granny first is the bomb. It'll still push you down the highway at 65 with no problem. You get more power to the ground with a manual than an automatic. Performance upgrades on the 345 are expensive with not that much return on investment.

    3. better gas mileage: a 304/2bbl typically gets better mileage than a 345 4bbl

    4. saves you money!!!!!!
     
  5. Super Scout

    Super Scout Farmall Cub

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    You could probably find a 345 cheap enough but that said. The 304 aint no slouch. I have one in my 73 all stock with electronic ign, accel coil, and dual exhaust it runs great !! Now I have 31s and a 4 speed with 3.73 but I could bet if did some extra work to it the motor would have plenty of grunt. I have 345 in my traveler wth 3.73 and a 4 speed and the 304 will out run it easily.
     
  6. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Y-Block King

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    A strong 304 engine in perfect state of tune is no slouch. There really isn't that huge of a Hp/Tq gap between it and a comparable condition 345. With your axle gearing, it should do well both on and off road. That said, if you think you're going to suffer from latent displacement envy going forward, you might just want to hold out for the big 'un...and i'm talking the 392!:punk: Might as well go for the gusto right?
     
  7. HayMaker

    HayMaker Farmall Cub

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    This happened to me too, when i got the engine that is currently in my truck. On ebay, it said it was a 345. When i got there after the three hour drive, i found out it wasn't:censored:. I wouldn't have taken it but i didn't have any spare parts for a 345 and i have a whole 304 already that was(and still is) froze up, with as many parts as i could want, and it was a good price, so i took it. Its a pretty good running engine, definitely more power than the old worn out 266 that was in it before.
     
  8. Binder Brothers

    Binder Brothers Farmall Cub

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    Don't spend your money rebuilding your engine, good running IH engines are inexpensive. I bet you can find a really nice one for $300-$500.
     
  9. ihslave

    ihslave Farmall Cub

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    I'd put a shift kit in the 727. I think a lot of people here would consider that a must-have upgrade if its already out of the vehicle.

    I'd then inspect the new 304, clean it up, and put your 4bbl carb on it. You'll have to acquire the IHonly aluminum model($$) or spend less to have the existing one on the engine machined/modified to accept the 4bbls.

    Then put it all back together and slip it in the scout.

    What's nice about that approach is-

    1) Least amount of down time on your DD scout.

    2) Engine and drive train are already sitting there, out in the open.

    3) A 304 with a 4bbl is a very nice setup. They get good cruise mileage, and with the addition of the second set of barrels, are SNAPPY.

    Then sell your previous drivetrain and buy a set of Stan's Try-Y's. A lot of people debate the merits of them, but I noticed a big improvement in throttle response and torque when I put them on my 304. Either way, that 304 is a great workhorse.

    Having played around with different combinations to get exactly what you're going for, that's what I would do. In fact, had I driven a 4bbl 304 sooner, I never would have swapped it out.
     
  10. raleighrugger

    raleighrugger Farmall Cub

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    Yeah it was a life saver!

    Not a bad idea, I'll have to take that into consideration.....

    Eventually when I build Trail Rig, the "big'un" will definitely be providing the grunt.



    I did consider going the EFI route. AFI's kits look nice, but a bit pricey. I could also do it myself, but I hate wiring and even though Bill usn-1 explains it in depth in the Fuel Injection sticky I feel I'd screw it up somehow.... However if it's the best air/fuel delivery upgrade to get more all around power and efficiency, I may have to rethink my stance on all the wiring.
     
  11. Houston

    Houston High Wheeler

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    I think i know where a 345 or two lives, relatively close by, that can be had for cheap. They would both be builder engines, but I am fairly certain they are 345s.
     
  12. Chris Leggett

    Chris Leggett Binder Driver

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    I had the opposite problem when looking for a 304 for my 800. My sandblasted and painted 304 intake manifold wouldn't fit the 345 I pulled out of Pic-A-Part :punk:

    With that said I aquired a 8000 mile 266 from a guy and nearly put it in my 1210 when the 392 blew up. I Probly would not have been happy with that setup.
     
  13. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Y-Block King

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    Is this even possible? I ask because this is the first time in 9 years of Binder ownership and coinciding heavy Binder forum participation that I have ever heard of this. With the frequency that 304 4bbl conversion gets bandied about here and elsewhere, it's a wonder this "solution" hasn't been discussed and regurgitated innumerable times over the years.
     
  14. LeeC

    LeeC Guest

    I've never driven a 345, but have driven several 304's in Travelalls and one 392. I say 392 hands down! That said, I'd put the 727 in with your current running 304 and use it while looking for a solid runner you don't have to rebuild if possible. In the long run I think you will be much happier with a 345 or 392. The big-un is sweet to torque-idle or put the pedal down on! :D
     
  15. Dan916

    Dan916 Farmall Cub

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    I've never had a 304 or 345 but machining the 2 barrel manifold and then setting up the "new 304" with HEI and EFI while its on the stand seems like a good plan. I'll bet you can get some of the EFI cost back by selling the 4 barrel set-up. My plan was to do the HEI and EFI upgrade and if I still had the money I'd do that and the headers on my Travelall. But even with it's 392 I plan on using a machined 2 barrel manifold instead of an adapter plate on the 4 barrel one. I'm guessing you didn't get to see it running and that its on the stand to check it's condition. Replacing the rear seal and the freeze plugs on the rear would be cheap insurance while the're exposed now, if you decide to keep it. If the compression is ok then the cam, rocker shafts, and oiling system would be other things to check on either size SV motor. I'm not meaning to insult anyone by mentioning these things but I wish I'd known about them before I tore into an IH V8 the first time. There is good information if you search here and the IHON repair forum.

    I won't get into the stick vs auto issue they both have their advantages and disadvantages both on and off the trail. Before you remove the stick from your Scout try this. My ex was completely freaked by manual transmissions when she learned. It took me longer to convince her to try than it took her to actually learn. I promised her we would be in an open field, go as slow as she wanted, and I wouldn't yell at her so she agreed to try. I started by showing her that in low range I could just ease my foot up on the clutch at idle and it wouldn't jerk or die. She tried that, felt better about that and after a few more Saturdays in the field SHE decided it was time to try on the street. (By then she could start on a hill in regular range.) Her parents and brothers couldn't believe that after 10 years of driving just automatics she had finally gotten over her fear of even trying. They had all tried to teach her on the road or in parking lots but without a low range so it always stalled or jerked badly. She never enjoyed driving a stick but for 8 years we lived with a 1 car garage at the end of a narrow driveway past the house so if I wasn't home she would back the LandCrusier or Terra out of the way to get in or out of the garage. Once in a while she'd drive one to the store instead of just moving it out of the way. If her car was in the shop she'd use one of those and on long trips she'd take a turn on the freeway too. It actually gave her a sense accomplishment and she tried doing other things she had been afraid of.

    Good luck whichever path you decide to take.
     
  16. scorp1us

    scorp1us High Wheeler

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    I feel so left out. you didn't even quote me. :tt2:
     
  17. raleighrugger

    raleighrugger Farmall Cub

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    Sorry. Hope this makes up for it?
     
  18. Howie Lederfind

    Howie Lederfind Farmall Cub

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    I don't know if you'd be interested or not, but i have a great running 345 in my Scout right now, but I'm ready to pull it to put in a hopped up rebuilt 392 I built recently! I have left the running 345 in my Scout to sell first because i want the buyer to hear and test it while it's running. It's $350 and I live just a few hours from you...down in Ellenboro, NC(between Charlotte & Asheville). Call me if you're interested and you can come down, hear it run and go with me on a ride so you can check it out for yourself!

    BTW...I'd need to keep the accessories and brackets..i.e. alt. & p/s brackets, exhaust manifolds and the 2bbl. carb. What you'd get was a basic sealed motor with all the covers on it. Sounds like you're wanting to put a 4bbl. on it anyway.

    I bought the Scout in 2002 and have not put many miles on it since then...maybe a couple thousand...I've been restoring it and it's been in pieces a lot. The previous owner claimed that the motor was rebuilt, but I didn't get any documentation proving it. It does run strong...the only problem I've ever had with it has been tune-up or carburetor-related. We can even do a compression test on it if you want.

    Howie <><
    828-429-7968
     
  19. Eric VanBuren

    Eric VanBuren Lives in an IH Dealership

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    If you are really wire phobic you can buy a wiring harness that is ready to go and you'll only have a few wires that aren't plug and play. Then you can junk yard source the rest of the parts to take a little sting out of the price tag. EFI will give you more than enough airflow and more precise A/F ratio and timing control than a carb and mechanical and vacuum advance can. For TBI the 2bbl manifold is preferred.

    Back in the day SSS used to offer 304 manifolds, that I think another LL dealer actually converted, for 4bbl use. From what I understand they machined the top of the manifold down 1/2" or so, opened it up for 2 oval holes on each side and then placed a 1/2" plate with the 4bbl pattern on it. It appeared to be similar to the one Clifford offers for their 6=8 manifolds so they only needed one manifold to cover Holley 2bbl and 4bbl and Webber 2bbl. As soon as the RPT manifold saturated the market the converted ones disappeared.
     
  20. ihslave

    ihslave Farmall Cub

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    Well, I drove one that a guy at the local carb shop had put on... it was a Rottenchester Q-jet. He had essentially ground, by hand, a two gaping holes (his description) in the manifold that would accommodate primary and secondary on both sides. Then he made an aluminum plate with four studs in the carb pattern, which he bolted down to the manifold, and put the carb on top of. It was an ugly execution (looked like a hacksaw was the primary tool) but it definitely had the feel of secondaries hitting. He was trying to convince me to pay him to do it on my rig.

    At the time I worked at a shop that had plenty of fabrication equipment, we actually drew up an adapter "insert" to do the same thing. The plan was to machine out a proper cavity, and set this in it. Then I ran across a 392, and forgot the whole deal.

    No pics. Didn't see the manifold without the carb on top, so I can't verify exactly what went on.

    No one else has done this, or something similar?
     

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