Conversion kits for "full flow" oil filters.

Discussion in 'Triple Diamond Trucks' started by youric, Nov 29, 2019.


  1. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    I know there was a factory option and also a conversion kit for a "full flow" oil filter for the BLD motors starting in the mid 50s, does anyone know if there was something like that for the Red Diamond motors? If not, has anyone ported the oil galley on an RD/RED to reroute oil passage for a full flow?
    Happy Thanksgiving, y'all!
     
  2. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    This has actually been a pet project of mine for a while. On my m5h6, the prior owner would routinely swap out the RD engines. They swapped out the stock full flow (downward facing) cartridge filter for the upright bypass sock type filter because it interfered with the steering box and/or PTO shaft. It seems the bolt pattern for these two types are interchangeable. Of course this caused dirty oil to be pushed directly to the engine bearings.

    I am making an adapter plate out of aluminum to take the place of the oil filter housing on my RD engine. I plan on drilling out the ports and tapping them for 1/2 pipe thread. Then I can use a modern remote mount oil filter kit for a Diesel engine. This would give me a nice modern spin on filter that I can put anywhere under the hood. I'm not done with it yet but I'll let you know how it works out.
     

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  3. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    This just made my day!

    I also have some questions about it...
    I have the original RED361 in my M5H6, it has the upright bypass filter. This may be more a question of RED vs RD, but do you know if the bypass vs full flow plumbing to the filter is in the filter base or is it in the motor block? As in, I would do what you're doing in a heartbeat but I don't know if it would still be just bypass filtering remotely. Does that make sense?

    I chased this for a while but then I got under the impression that the RD & RED motor blocks were piped different to the filter. But if what you're saying means what I hope it means, and changing the filter base/housing changes bypass vs full flow, then I could be in luck. Any chance you have the part number for the bypass filter housing that was on you motor? Maybe a few pics of the side that mates to the block? If numbers and/or visuals match up with RED stuff, I'll be grinning all the way to the drill press.
     
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  4. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Just did some quick checks in the parts books. I don't have all the 50s books but I do have most of the 40s books and the master index for the '50s manuals. The same numbers for the KB Michiana bypass filter appear in the heavy truck manuals (using the RD motors). The 'military senior' filter originally on the M5H6 (what I'm still using) didn't appear in any of the civilian manuals, but the filter-base-to-block gasket (26719HB) matched all of them.

    If that's all interchangeable, I'm pretty sure that means the bypass vs full flow routing must be in the filter assembly.

    I'm going to continue verifying it, but I'm pretty stoked about this.
    Looking forward to how your remote filter turns out!
     
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  5. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    I have two photos that may help you...

    This is a picture of the side of an RD block with the oil filter housing removed. If I remember correctly (this was 3 years ago), the far left port was oil from the pump, the center was a drain to the sump, and the right was to the oil galley. When I cranked the engine, oil poured from the far left hole.

    Now to the second picture, the rear of the bypass oil filter I removed (from the RD block, remember, so it will fit). There were no markings on it, but it uses a NAPA 1002 filter. There is a channel that connects the pump and galley ports directly, hence the bypass. Inside the filter housing is a pressure relief valve that dumps the upper channel (through the hole in the back of the channel) into the center hole if the oil pressure exceeds a certain value. When I got the truck there was no oil pressure, which is why it was parked. I found that the relief valve spring had broken and was allowing 100% oil flow back to the pan. Luckily I found another housing and once bolted up it worked - back to 40 PSI on the gauge. So, it looks like the difference is in the filter base.

    I have not yet unbolted my full flow housing to see how it works but I bet it's similar. Experiment at your own risk :)

    I scoured the internet for information on filter to block compatibility when I took this apart but couldn't find much. Glad it's helpful!
     

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  6. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    The filter element is a sock type that filters maybe 10% of the oil that passes through. The filtered oil returns to the pan also through the center port. The pressure relief valve opens across the filter element in case the filter clogs, or in my case, the spring shatters and you get nothing.
     
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  7. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Very interesting! So, just so I'm following, with your adapter plate you're going to run the line from the pump to the filter and then the return line to the galley? The 'safety' pressure valve in case of clogged filter is eliminated, but assume you'll be attentive to filter condition- or are you adding a valve somewhere? Do you have a particular remote filter in mind?

    Post more pics as you go!
     
  8. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    Yes, that's the general idea. Spin on filters have a built in bypass so I won't need a separate valve. Plus I'm pretty attentive to maintenance. As far as a remote kit, I was thinking something along the lines of one that fits a 7.3 powerstroke diesel, as it has 1/2 inch ports similar to my block. They are available from several different vendors online.

    I will hopefully have something together by this summer. I'll be sure to post an update when I can.
     
  9. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    From what I've gathered from parts and service manuals, including RD engines, and the smaller Blue Diamonds I own, the oil pump relief valve is on the side of the block ported to the main oil gallery. The bypass filter (option) housing has the oil pump's relief valve and the oil for the filter goes through an orifice. Being a bypass filter the orifice doesn't let the filter rob oil to the bearings. In a full flow filter, the adapter will have 2 relief valves; one for the pump and a bypass relief set for 12-15 psi if the filter gets plugged. If there's an oil cooler, the adapter will have 3 relief valves. The 3rd limits pressure to the oil cooler.
     
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  10. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Greg, I spent a while yesterday buried in manuals finding the same information but you're definitely more familiar with it, hopefully you can clarify this for me. This is how I understand it or up to how I understand it, so just bear with me..

    You have the three oil passages on the side of the block where the filter housing mounts.
    A. From the oil pump
    B. Back to the sump
    C. To the oil galley

    1. The oil pump relief valve is to limit a maximum oil pressure throughout the system. In my WWII RED it's around 45psi. In full-flow filters of the late 1950s I think it's set higher to 50psi or so to compensate pressure drag of a full-flow. In either bypass filtering or full-flow, if that maximum is reached, the valve opens to lower pressure to the preset psi. The excess oil released by the valve to lower the pressure is sent back into the sump through (B).

    2. Bypass filters process a small percentage of oil pumped (A) and reverts it back to the sump through (B). The main flow of oil from the pump (A) moves directly past the filter (at the base of the filter) and goes into the galley (C) to lubricate bearings and onto the rest of the motor.
    Bypass filter illustration from M5H6 'Maintenance & Operation' manual:
    IMG_4086.jpeg

    3. Factory full-flow doesn't use the sump port (B) on the block for anything besides the pump relief valve described in 1.
    The factory full-flow is fed directly from the pump (A), goes through the filter and is sent directly into the galley through (C). In case the filter gets clogged, a bypass pressure valve opens at 12-15psi and unfiltered oil is sent directly from the pump (A) to the galley (C).
    Left out the oil cooler on this just to establish the differences in filter operation and oil flow.

    Haven't found anything with oil pump/galley plumbing that is different regarding the filters used on RED vs RD motors, which was my first concern.

    Haven't found anything yet that would indicate that Kruser's adapter plate wouldn't work for a full-flow set-up, as the remote filters he referenced have bypass pressure valves built in. I spent some time researching those options last night and was trying to wrap my head around a setup that filtered a RED motor's oil down to 2 microns. Crazy talk!

    The only thing not accounted for in Kruser's DIY full-flow adapter plate at this point is a pump relief valve, which could probably be figured in without too much brain stretching.

    Let me know if there's something obvious that I'm just not catching or understanding here- it's happened before!
     
  11. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Yes, I have the exact same understanding. My manual also shows as a maintenance item that the adapter plate is removed and the relief valves taken out for cleaning. You need a tool to remove and replace the relief valves; which the manual shows how to make one. Machining an adapter with ports for relief valves would be my challenge. The full flow filters seem similar across engine platforms, I wonder if a full flow adapter plate from a later engine such as a Silver or Blue Diamond would work. A difference in filters would be the actual filter size in length for the larger engine but maybe the adapter is the same. Here's a scan of a schematic from a repair manual for RD engines: RDfilter.jpg
     
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  12. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Fantastic then. Gonna start chasing the same idea Kruser is with an added pump relief valve. A big thanks to both of ya!
     
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  13. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    You'd definitely need a pump relief valve to protect the filter and system from cold starts and thick oil. I had an idea of stacking 2" thick slabs of aluminum on top of each other, routing out worm passages with a dremel and then machining in a small cylinder, tapping the end and then just threading in the stock relief valve from my old filter.

    But I think a guy would be money, time and quality ahead in the long run to expand on Kruser's design (not to say he hasn't already planned this) and run a tee off the oil pump out line before the filter and add an adjustable pressure relief valve that drains back to the sump port. I've been looking around and the cheapest one I could find that would do the job was $124 at McMaster Carr. ( https://www.mcmaster.com/4704k11/ )

    Adding a second tee to that line and putting in a mechanical oil pressure gauge would make dialing in the valve adjustment easier.

    Interested to hear any clever ideas to do it better or cheaper!
     
  14. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    Good idea. I probably would go with an external valve versus the complication of drilling and porting of the base. But you never know. :)
     
  15. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I thought of the exact same thing.
     
  16. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    The external pressure relief valve from McMaster-Carr came today. It's definitely heavy duty, but it even has "FUL FLO" cast in the side so I'm taking that as a sign. Got an idea knocking around similar to Kruser's, but trying keep routing internalized as possible. I'll draw up some rough plans as I go along.
    IMG_4178.jpeg IMG_4179.jpeg IMG_4180.jpeg
     
  17. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Whew, that's a monster. Looking at the size of the stock plate, and the pumps with internal relief, I was leaning towards a 1/4" size.
     
  18. youric

    youric Farmall Cub

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    Yeah, I was surprised by the substantial girth of it myself, but I think it's gonna work out well how I have the adapter block figured.

    Kruser mentioned using a remote filter setup intended for a 7.3 powerstroke to use the 1/2" NPT lines and I like the idea of the filter base and lines not adding any restriction, just volume. Most of the external fittings will convert directly to -8AN and flex hosing so I won't have too much in the way of heavy steel pipe fittings hanging off the block. As soon as I dig up the right block of aluminum I'll post pics of my progress.
     
  19. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    My remote kit came in today, here's a look. It's a Perma-Cool 10710 oil filter relocation kit for a 7.3 Powerstroke diesel. Someone online offers a remote kit for a DT466 using a 7.3 Powerstroke filter setup so it should be sufficient for our applications. I opted for a dual filter setup because, well, why not. Plus it minimizes the chance of a filter clogging up. The kit parts are very nicely cast in aluminum, and made in the USA. Barb fitting look ok, as does the 1/2" ID Gates rubber hose. Only part I will replace is the hose clamps, as they look somewhat cheesy. Maybe if this works I will convert over to a better hose and fitting system as youric suggested. It uses two oil filters (NAPA 1515 or Fram PH8A) which I have yet to pick up. But all in all I'm pleased with my purchase. Now on to finishing the adapter block.

    As far as the bypass valves go, I had not originally planned for one, as I thought that spin on filters had an internal bypass valve set to 12-15 psi differential pressure across the element. Wouldn't hurt to have one though for added peace of mind. Looking at the Fram datasheet on their website, the PH8A has a bypass pressure of 12 psi. I don't think the old cartridge or sock filters had this, hence the separate valve. But I could be wrong.
    Youric - I like that valve! Looks beefy
     

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  20. Kruser Keller

    Kruser Keller Farmall Cub

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    I have my own idea for a 50 psi external control valve... we'll see how well it works
     

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