Class IV hitch for Scout II?

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Phearmonger, Jul 11, 2020.


  1. Phearmonger

    Phearmonger Farmall Cub

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    I currently have a class III hitch and am looking to upgrade to a class IV (or class V if available) hitch? I am having trouble sourcing one even though there are a few forum posts that refer to their existence. Thanks
     
  2. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    Im not sure the frame can take a class 5. 12000-17000lb behind a scout is absurd. Even the 10000lb of a class IV is asking way too much. Your talking 1200-1800lbs on the hitch. Then there's the short wheel base. Most trailers that heavy will be very long and when the trailer wags the rug wags too. I have a 10000lb class 4 on my 3/4 ton shortbed and towing a 7000lb RV with a load balancing hitch requires two sway dampers and you still have to be careful.


    Of course, there's a whole other way of looking at it. If you had some sort of class 5 hitch that would fit, say one of the universal kits for bigger trucks, you could of course put it on. It would be clunky and heavier than you needed but it would not increase the towing capacity. Even with a class 3 hitch, your towing capacity is going to be limited by the vehicle frame,brakes and suspension and maybe the engine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  3. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I agree fully with Mallen on this. You can't make practical use of anything bigger than Class III on a Scout. You need a different towing platform than a Scout if Class IV or larger loads are needing to be moved.
     
  4. Phearmonger

    Phearmonger Farmall Cub

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    I guess you all don’t know. Maybe I should go ask on Facebook? It’s not about the other characteristics of towing with a Scout, it’s about the peace of mind having extra safety factor in the part.
     
  5. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    There is already an extra safety factor built into a class 3 hitch. Anything that will break the class 3 will probably damage or destroy your frame or rear axle or springs. There simply is no situation where you would damage a class 3 hitch, but would have been ok if you had only had a class 4. The chassis of a scout is light weight compared to a pickup truck. It a why the trucks weigh 1-2 tons more. The chassis will fail first. The reason reputable suppliers wont supply a hitch for a scout and call it "class IV" is because a class IV hitch has a weight rating that would destroy your scout. If it didnt, it would not be a class IV hitch. You just can't make a hitch that can carry that kimd of weight on a scout so you'd lying about what it was. The chart below tells the tale. A hitch that can take up to 8000lbs would be a class 3 hitch. A class IV takes up to 12000 lbs. But if your hitch can only take, say 6000lbs because the rear axle will break under the load, then its really not a class IV is it? Its just a class iii. If you call it a class IV then your just lying.

    But honestly, your scouts down in the range of 3500lbs max. Similarly, although my truck has a 10000lb hitch, the max I can tow is about 7500lbs.

    faq154-trailer-hitch-classes_2_800.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  6. stroker3

    stroker3 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Maybe.

    If there's a class IV or V hitch out there that fits a scout, it wasn't made for a scout. As already mentioned it wasn't built for towing that much so I doubt any hitch company would bother. It's pointless for them to do so. Not much different than a tire company making E rated 10 ply tires for a Prius. Your options would be to have a beefier hitch made or take some measurements and start cross referencing. Then try matching that info with other vehicles that are made to tow that much. IF anyone decided to make full use of a class V hitch's capacity, the scout wouldn't be the only weak point.
     
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  7. Phearmonger

    Phearmonger Farmall Cub

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    While I appreciate and respect the wisdom of the folks in the Scout community, sometimes I can’t understand how regarding somethings you all (colloquially) are gung-ho to modify but other things you are sticks in the mud? This isn’t the first time I’ve asked a question and instead of a useful response I’ve been met with straight negativity. It’s almost amusing really. One of the things I like about the IH company and by extension this community is the general openness to build your rig to meet your own needs and specifications. Hopefully it continues, otherwise it will be just like going to my local parts house; year, make and model. Boring!

    -Regards

    PS. Thanks for the tip Stoker3
     
  8. winchested

    winchested Y-Block King

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    Unless you're building a 3x3 or 3x4" 3/16 wall new frame for your scout that we don't know about, or putting a 1 ton axle and 2.5 to 3" wide leaf springs under it.

    There is no off the shelf class IV receiver available...

    It's pretty cut and dry.
     
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  9. RinTX

    RinTX High Wheeler

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    This does have me a little curious. I need to search and find a side by side comparison of a class III rated hitch and a class IV rated hitch - just to see what the differences in design/construction might be.
     
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  10. Phearmonger

    Phearmonger Farmall Cub

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    My intent is to get as close as I can to being able to handle a 9000# GTW...
     
  11. winchested

    winchested Y-Block King

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    GVW? Like scout plus trailer? You can't legally tow over the GCWR or over axle ratios that are published and or located on the axle sticker in the kick panel.

    Like 9000 lb loaded trailer?


    Ummm that's 5000 lbs too much. 100" wheel base cannot handle that. A traveler or Terra 118" could handle it. The owner of IH only has a Scout house on his traveler and tows car haulers with it.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    Thats insane. The frame , springs and axles canyon handle that. Neither can the brakes. Thats pushing 3x what IH said was the maximum. That would put the gross combined weight at around 13000 lbs. Thats the maximum for a 3/4-1ton pickup like the 1210. And ill tell you, the 1210 is stout. You look at the frame on that thing and its seriously heavy duty with a massive rear axle and thick steel in the frame. You just CANT upgrade a scout to tow like a 1 ton truck.

    When you put nearly a half ton tongue weight ,backed up by 9000lbs of trailer, hanging off the back end of your truck, sitting cantilevered off the rear, way out behind the rear suspension, your going to slam on the brakes and if you lucky you will damage the frame, if not you will unload the weight off the front wheels and loose braking and steering at the same time.

    Thats the reason why we tell you not to do it. But, if you really want to know how to do it, I will tell you. Its going to be a lot of work. First your going to have to take the frame off. The measure everything out and draft up a new frame. You should draft it up on paper or in something like autocrat because if you just try to wing it its going to be very hard and may never come out right. Your new frame will be similar in thickness to a 1 ton pickups. Err on the side of heavier as you dont have the ability to do the computer simulations of the frame like the auto makers do. Another option would be to find a chassis that you can swap the body on that can carry that kind of weight but I doubt such a beast exists that would fit under a vehicle that small. Now that you have a 1 ton frame, your going to need axles. You want a Dana 60 or 70 in the rear and probably a Dana 44 up front. They will be to wide, but you could cut the welds at the housings trim the tubes and reeled them. Then either have custom axle shafts made or have the old ones cut down and relined by a competent machinist. At the end of course, its not even a scout anymore. Its a seriously customized vehicle. Now that you have all that, you need to address the steering because your most likely going to need some lift to clear that rear axle. Springs are another issue. You need one ton springs for something as short as a scout. Those are unlikely to be off the shelf repurposed from another vehicle. You will need to have a spring shop fab up something custom. And you still have a severely short wheel base for towing that load so the sway you will experience on the freeway will be a terrifying experience.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  13. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    Thats overloaded. Look at how the rear sags and the front wheels are lifted. That unloads weight off the front wheels which reduces steering and braking effectiveness. More importantly, when you hit the brakes, that massive trailer comes forward and lifts the front even further. Right when you need it. A load balancing hitch should help. In that case, Hes maybe 1000lbs over what the vehicle should tow. Its over but not totally batshit crazy. A load balancing hitch might solve some of those issues.

    The OP on the other hand is talking over twice the rated load. Coming up on three times the maximum. Its begging for a massive wreck.

     
  14. Dana Strong

    Dana Strong Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Do people sometimes park huge trailers, perhaps even fifth-wheeled travel trailers, blocking your driveway so you just need to haul them down the street a ways?
    BTW, what state or country do you drive in? That might shed a bit of light on your motives?

    To reinforce most of the above advice, a class 5 hitch would require a much different frame and suspension to even install, so I'd say you would need to build one from scratch...and figure the extra weight would probably reduce your gas mileage by 10% once installed :clown:.
     
  15. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    Those are good points. I find the 10% rather optimistic though.
    The expected usage DOES of course make a difference as you noted. If the need for the heavy hitch is "Sometimes I need to drag a piece of broken down farm equipment in from the field in first gear and I keep bending class two balls" maybe I could could get on board. Although honestly, ID say stick with tbe weaker hitch because you would rather bend the hitch than the frame. In those kind of situations, sometimes stronger is not better, it just causes even more damage.

    I can provide a real world example. When I got my truck, the cheesy bumper mount hitch ball had been reinforced by welding a piece of 5/8 inch steel stock from the cross member behind d the rear axle to the bumper under the ball, presumably because he wanted to carry more young weight on the rear bumper. The bumper was bent in half, totally destroyed The cross member was so badly mangled that I had to fabricate a new one. While its true the rear bumper was badly rusted the more I think about it, the more I think it probably rusted after that damage. But even if it did not it makes my point. Reinforcing that bumper hitch didnt do any good. It just transferred the load to some other point and broke something else. I now have a proper class IV hitch on it that transfers the weight to the frame where it can handle it. But of course, if I trued to put a 25,000lb class V on it and tow giant pintle mount trailer with 12 tons of farm equipment, somethings going to break.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  16. Dana Strong

    Dana Strong Lives in an IH Dealership

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    You think the added weight of the new hitch will cut the mileage even more?
     
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  17. mallen

    mallen Y-Block King

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    The added weight of the hitch plus necessary upgrades to the frame plus the new axles and springs he will need.

    Here's an interesting document someone uploaded a while back. It shoes the frame thickness on various ihc trucks. While the .12 vs .18 thickness is interesting between a 200 series 3/4 ton 4x4 (similar to my 1210 3/4 ton 4x4) and a scout ii, what's really telling is the section modulus. 1.87 for the scout. 3.45 for the lightest ifs front suspension 150 which is well known as the lightest weight pickup, and 4.82 for the 200 series 3/4 and 1 ton 4x4. Some long wheel base 1210 models are actually thicker at .208" with a section modulous of 5.66 according to this reference http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/faq/frame_specs.html That should kill any sane persons idea of putting a hitch made for a 1 ton truck on a scout.

    IH Light Line Frames 1974.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  18. Darrel

    Darrel Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    The reason you don't see class IV/V hitches on the market is because SIIs including Travelers are only rated to tow a 5,000 lb trailer. Any competent welder could build a class V, but don't discount the liability risks.
     
  19. Phearmonger

    Phearmonger Farmall Cub

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    The main reason for having a higher capacity hitch was what Dana Strong alluded to; I have a 12000 lb Gross Trailer Weight dump trailer that often ends up at 8-9000 lbs. it would be nice to move it around my yard with the Scout. Obviously, the Scout is getting upgrades beyond the hitch receiver to do this. I’m not planning on cross country towing with this setup.
     
  20. Jeff Jamison

    Jeff Jamison Lives in an IH Dealership

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    The only thing you could do then is buy a class V,use the main tube,cut the mounting brackets off and have some made from the same thickness steel to bolt to your frame,but I don't know if that tongue weight will rip the frame or not.I would try it for yard work only.I have moved my 7000 pound camper around the house with my scout.
     
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