Bolt patterns on 'big' trucks.

Discussion in 'Triple Diamond Trucks' started by Mark Ashford, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. Mark Ashford

    Mark Ashford Moderator.. or something Staff Member Moderator

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    Web search is sketchy. Lots of guys selling wheels and adapters and spacers, but rarely does give specs for wheel bolt patterns.

    Maybe you guys can help.

    IH 'big' 5-lug, like whats on my 1510... looks like 5 on 7-3/4"??

    IH and common 'big' 6-lug (like whats on my KB).. measured this morning at 6 on 8.5"??

    What about modern 'Big Rig' 10-lug?

    What about modern F450/550/Superduty/3500HD 10-lug?

    What other patterns are out there?



    I have two goals with this questioning... one general knowledge and maybe even a FAQ or Sticky. Second, to find if there are some alternative wheels (19.5 or maybe 22.5's) that I can put on the 1510 to get more common tires, disc brakes, maybe even front axle swap, and most important... some *bling* in the rims (nice AL or atleast SS covers :cool: :cool: )
     
  2. IHWillys

    IHWillys Farmall Cub

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    This is 5 on 8. It's a common light-medium duty pattern used into the '70s. I've seen more on Dodges than on IHs. In fact, the set of wheels currently on my B140 I took off a 2.5 ton dually Dodge.

    I'm of no help on what you're really after.

    Ken
     
  3. Mark Ashford

    Mark Ashford Moderator.. or something Staff Member Moderator

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    http://www.hubking.com/Price2.htm

    this has proved to be a useful page. Looks like the KB's 6 on 8.75.


    The Alcoa website also had some interesting info:

    8 on 275mm (10.83") - hub centric typical
    10 on 7.25 - 'RV Special' - lug centric
    10 on 225mm (8.86") - hub centric typical
    10 on 285.75mm (11.25) - available hub centric or lug centric
    10 on 335mm (13.19") - hub centric typical
     
  4. willy

    willy Binder Driver

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    I have been searching for a 16 inch Budd wheel for the front of my 47 KB 3, have one with a wobble.

    I located a good used wheel over in South Dakota, bought it, had it shipped, and learned that (and I should have know this) there are different off sets. I need one that is stamped "49" and got one stamped "40" which has an off set of about two inches positive. The "49" has no positive off set. Had I known this little tid-bit I could have saved a few $$.

    A fac or sticky that not only referenced bolt patterns but also how to id offset and application would be handy. I imagine building a fac would be quite the undertaking.

    Willy

    ps. A 16 inch budd "40" makes a dandy base for a vise stand :D
     
  5. RustEoldtrux

    RustEoldtrux Farmall Cub

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    Budd wheels

    Hey Willy, there may what you need here in Evanston, WY for your KB 3. The remains of a truck with 16-inch 5-lug Budd wheels has been sitting in the same place for several years. This appears to the same lug pattern as the old flatfender Power Wagons and WWII weapons carriers, but the wheels are definitely a bit different than PW wheels. Post the number of wheel lugs and bolt circle diameter here and I can check to see if it's the same. There are at least 4 good wheels with front and rear axle, plus the pickup box here. I suspect this could be had free or for little money.
     
  6. willy

    willy Binder Driver

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    hey Russ,
    How about this cold?
    I have a couple of pic's on my Flickr page
    < http://www.flickr.com/photos/60283506@N00/ >
    click on the first pic to make it big, click on the tab over the pic to make it HUGE so you can see the number stamp.
    Any help is appreciated.

    Willy
     
  7. bindermike

    bindermike Farmall Cub

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    Mark, welcome to the world of big(ger) boys toys!

    The Budd bolt patterns were available in 5-hole, 6-hole, 8-hole, and 10-hole, depending upon load range of the truck (I don't have numbers, just observations). In Internationals, the 5-hole Budd was used on the 1500-1510 trucks, with 17" and 20" split-rims. Some of the light gvw Loadstars had 20" 5-hole Budd's, as well. The K/KB-4 and K/KB-5 used the 5-hole Budd, but K/KB-6's would use the 6-hole, and so on. The S, A, & B series trucks would be similar.

    My 1500 came with 17" tires, which are difficult to get, and don't have much selection. I wanted to get away from the split-rims, and go to a more readily available tire size. I bought a full set (7 wheels) of 19.5" wheels off a mid-70's Dodge-chassis motorhome. They look good, tires are readily available, and no split-rim!

    I saw a set of 22.5" 5-hole wheels on a mid-60's Ford truck (F-500, how rare was that?), but they had really skinny 8.00x22.5" tires that I think would be hard to get.

    For my money, the 19.5" motorhome wheels are the way to go. I haven't found any alloy wheels available, but stainless steel wheel covers are. I've NEVER heard of anyone making wheel adapters for the Budd bolt patterns.

    As far as axle swaps... Loadstar axles would be W-A-Y to wide. K/KB-series axles might be closer width-wise, but you'd have "antique" axles and OLD brakes. I've pondered the idea of using Ford F-450/550 axles, but haven't done any real research (plus the ever-present $$$ issue).

    Regarding disk brakes... The front brakes on my 1500 are abysmal 1-3/4"x 12" shoes! My '68 1200 had bigger front brakes! The rear brakes are around 3-1/2" wide, so I figure they're acceptable. Some late-model light-duty trucks (and buses) had hydraulic disk brakes all around, but I've only seen them with "California" (cast hub) wheels.

    Now for a front disk conversion... Let's talk...


    Later, Mike
     
  8. willy

    willy Binder Driver

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    For what its worth,
    my KB 3 has 6 hole budd's not 5.

    Willy
     
  9. Mark Ashford

    Mark Ashford Moderator.. or something Staff Member Moderator

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    Perfect information, that is EXACTLY what I was looking for. So somewhere, there is available 19.5", tubless, non-split rims with the 5 on funky pattern. Exactly what I would like to change to when I get the chance.


    I'm also going to look at a F450/F550/3500HD or what ever front beam swap as well when the opportunity presents is self. If my current axle needs king-pins I'll look at it harder, if its good and serviceable, I'll do a quickly brake job, fix the death wobble and call it good till other fates allow.


    If I can get front discs (and better yet, a little more drop :D:D), and some 19.5's for the rear, I'll deal with different bolt patterns if I have to (modern front, stock rear). Most of the time I've noticed with these trucks if you have a tire failure you just call the mobile tire company anyway and have them fix it. More $$, but they have the equipment.


    Thanks for the info. Were did you find the Dodge MH rims? e-bay? Local?.... if you spy another set, drop me a line!! If you don't mind, how much did you pay?


    -mark
     
  10. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    These chassis' in the lighter 8 lug version are also a good source for a disk brake front beam axle, but in my neck of the woods are virtually non-existent. The only one I have seen in the flesh was burned to the ground in the Amargosa valley at an abandoned mine.

    The ones I measured had spring perches that were way too wide. Custom perches could be fabbed for our chassis, natch, but it's a non-trivial install. I was going this route for my loooong term 1 ton dump project, then Doc came through with a nice 1300 dually FA-12.

    Back in the day, they sized the front brakes for the chassis and the rear brakes for the load :) I recently parted a 1600 with 5 lug hubs and 14" front brakes. The wheel bearings were the same size as an pre-'72 1200 FA-12, with a little bit different 'overhang' on the hub where the grease seal sits. That's a possible upgrade if you have 12" brakes on a 5 lugger. Unfortunately the 1600 only came with 1 front hub/drum. Made recovery 'entertaining' to say the least.
     
  11. stu simpson

    stu simpson High Wheeler

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    Mike,

    I have never seen any 1500/1510 with anything less than 14" fronts. What year is that? The 64 1500 I have has 14" fronts. Does your 1500 have the dual-cylinder-per-side setup? I have a couple of spare useable FA28s when you get back stateside. You may have to change your master cylinder/booster setup to juice it.

    If you want discs, I suggest you try the AWD conversion like the one I am doing to the 73 1510 ex-wrecker. I will be able to maintain the 5 lug pattern and it gives me the range of 17, 19.5 or 20 with the option to later convert to disc brakes. I have 10 lug 20" wheels on it now (just using 5 holes).

    Mark, if your FA28 has bad kingpins I might have a full pin/bushing set on the parts shelf. Glad to see you found the truck you were looking for.
     
  12. Mark Ashford

    Mark Ashford Moderator.. or something Staff Member Moderator

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    Cool, I'll let you know!

    :cool:

    Refresh my memory?? I'm not to interested in converting this to 4x4, it would be cool, but if anything I want to drop it down some rather than raise it. What 5-lug pattern do you have one your truck?? In my [limited] research I haven't found any 10-lug on 8" patterns. I have no problem using a 10-lug rim and just using 1/2 the holes. Or if I could find a disc (rotor) application with a 10 on 8" pattern (or 5 on 8") then I could probably find away to fab up a caliper bracket. But I haven't even taken the wheels of my truck yet, let alone check out the kingpins or what ever :rolleyes:
     
  13. stu simpson

    stu simpson High Wheeler

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    I have the same bolt pattern as you do on all of my FA28s and Loadstar 4x4 axles. Big 5. The Loadstar knuckles from the outer half of the ball to the lockouts are going on the 1 ton D70F. I will be maintaining 14" brakes (same as what came off with the FA28) and I will re-use the Midland booster and m/c. The 10 lug pattern that matches the big 5 is quite unusual. Search skunkworks under 1510 AWD; there is a picture posted within the thread with the wheels still on the axle/frame section. My project is complicated and ridiculous enough without doing a D70 disc conversion but who knows what the future holds.
     
  14. mike m.

    mike m. Farmall Cub

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    Hi Mark, I dont know if any of this will help or not,but here are a few possibiltys on wheel swaps that may help you or someone else. In reference to the 5lug Fords{1 piece} the old U-Haul trucks had a lot of them{ large style lug nuts }, a few of the trucks[non U-Haul] even had the 2 speed rear. Ford and Dodge both had 6 lug 1 piece{ large lug nuts }, as well as many of the old 2 & 1/2 military trucks. I have also seen both 5 & 6 lugs on UPS trucks {large lug nuts}. Motor homes have a lot of the 19.5 some 5 lug {10 lugs rear, 5 on front} as well as 19.5 8lugs. I have seen many of the newer trucks with the 10lug front/rear. I use to have some old trucks{other brands} and that is why I have noticed the wheel types. I am soory I didnt jot down all the measurments. On the ford or? 5lug narrow wheels 22.5 you mite try a 265/75/22.5. Be carful because some of the old 5lugs didnt have a ring on the out side lip and can fool you into thinking they are 1piece when actualy they split in the middle and are :eek: Very Dangerous/Deadly. If I spoke too much :eek: I am sorry, but safety is a BIG issue with me. Hope this helps somewhere, Mike :D
     
  15. mike m.

    mike m. Farmall Cub

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    One piece wheel replacements ,Bolt patterens, I am digging around here and getting some measurments as I can. If this should be posted elswhere, sorry :eek: I am still new here.
    HTML:
    My "goals" with these postings is not only to help others out but also to help keep others safe, I have seen too many people hurt or killed by 2 or 3 piece wheels.
    I got some measurment from a modern IH. These are 10 lug wheels 22.5 x 8"wide. Lug holes ,center to center, are 11 & 1/4", the hole itself is 1 & 1/8", the open hole of wheel{hub area} is 8 & 1/2", and distance from face{flat of wheel where lug nuts tighten}to lip of wheel{where tire beed sets} is 1 & 1/2". These take a lug nut with the washer made on it. These do not center the wheel as do the lug nuts with the taper/bevel. However, if this type of wheel will fit your truck and your truck needs the wheel to "center" from the lug nuts as do most of the old ones, you can get a "conter sink bit" and cut/bevel the lug holes your self or get someone to do it. It is not hard to do,I have done it a few times.
    While on the subject of wheels, If your truck has the drop center/spoke type wheels, The 22.5 drop center replace the old ones perfectly. The 22.5 are the standerd replacement for all the old 20" split rims.
    I will be happy to post measurments for other wheels as I get them or if someone out there already knows? thanks Mike.
     
  16. stu simpson

    stu simpson High Wheeler

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    Modern 22.5" hub pilot Budd rims do not fit the 20" 5 on 8 lug pattern.
     
  17. JIM WISE

    JIM WISE Farmall Cub

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    Im Trying To Find A Set Of 22.5 Wheels For My 65 Loadstar 1600 6 Lug . Short Of Having Them Made Any One Found Them Yet. Jim
     
  18. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    They're out there, my '68 CO1600 came to me with 6 lug 22.5 steelies.
     
  19. mike m.

    mike m. Farmall Cub

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    Jim, some of the old fords and dodges had 6-lug 22.5" wheels {U-haul,UPS,and Uniform rental trucks,etc} come to mind. I tryed to pick you up a set here, I went to the scrap yard and instead of the saving them,LIKE I ASKED THEM TO, they crushed truck, wheels and all. :mad: SORRY! :( I will continue to watch for some more of them, send me measurement center to center and I will check some more trucks, I just want to be sure I get some you can use.
    momanning@mikrotec.com :)
     
  20. mike m.

    mike m. Farmall Cub

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    Hello, The bolt mesurment on the 6-lug ford/dodge is 8 & 3/4" center to center. They made 1-piece 22.5" in these.
     

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