BG 241 or BD 264... or "shudder" a V8?

Discussion in 'The Truck Stop' started by John Donnelly, Jul 17, 2007.


  1. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    And the main difference between the 240 and 241, and also the 264 and 265, is that the 240 and 264 are straight-valve engines, while the 241 and 265 are tilt-valve engines. Many of the parts are identical between the 240 and 241, and between the 264 and 265, except the heads are different, as are the head gaskets, pistons, and valves. If you look in the Federal-Mogul engine parts book, they list many of the same parts. They specify that the person ordering measure the head width to ID properly.

    The 282 and 308 were part of the Blue Diamond (BLD) family along with the 269. Later on they were also known as the Black Diamond (BD). The 220 was known as the Silver Diamond (SD). The 240 and 264 were also called Black Diamonds, but later became the 241 and 265 and were called the Blue-Greens or Blue-Greys (BG). (Color was actually Detroit Diesel green-grey.) I think the main difference was what color they were painted new and the year they were made. If you visit the OldIHC database and punch in the engine numbers, you will see many different entries repeating this.

    Forget I brought up the 308. I thought it was in the same family as the SD and BG engines.

    I would think that a person could juggle blocks, heads, cranks, rods, and pistons and build a larger engine. You have many different blocks, and at least one good tilt-valve head. Mix & match. I am going to the library to look up the specs on each.
     
  2. DrMaserati

    DrMaserati High Wheeler

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    Now I see my error. I always thought the BD 240/264 were Blue Diamonds. I knew the BG 241/265 were Blue Greens and tilt valve. I obviously have my Blues and Blacks confused.
     
  3. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    Not to hijack this thread, but the engines like the 220 and 240 were available as Black Diamonds and Silver Diamonds at the same time, per some old Motor's manuals I read last night. They differed in the compression ratio, and little else according to the specs.

    It looks like there is no hard and fast rule for IDing these engines.
     
  4. WRENCH MAN

    WRENCH MAN Dreams of Cub Cadets

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    This is true, but like the V8's they have a stamped identification pad, the SD 220 and 24o's I had in my '56 S120's did.
    And the SD's and the BD's are NOT the same engine! I belive there are other minor differances other than compression ratio.
     
  5. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    I own/have owned numerous examples of tilt valve BD240/264's.

    Not to my eye it's not ;)
     
  6. fredsterra

    fredsterra Y-Block King

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    Heck!!!!! Just go ahead and put in a MV404 or MV446.:beer: You can pass everything on the road! But you better not pass a gas station!!:rolleyes:

    Just kidding! I would build you old engine back to stock. And custom bore each cyl. to match each piston. A good valve job and you will be good for another couple hundred thousand. And have more power than stock. Plus no external mods!
     
  7. IHWillys

    IHWillys Farmall Cub

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    That's just it, the BD264 will bolt right in where a 240/241 was with no changes whatsoever. It's not an "almost bolt-in", it is a bolt-in affair. Granted, one would likely upgrade to the 2 bbl intake offered on the 264 vs the 1bbl, but one could run the 1 bbl if it was preferred for whatever reason.

    With "bolt-in" in mind and given similar needs/costs for rebuild etc, one might as well start with more cubes of displacement IMHO, unless the operating rpm range was sufficiently different to prefer the higher revving of the options(generally associated with the smaller displacement options).

    Ken
     
  8. IHWillys

    IHWillys Farmall Cub

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    As Jim noted, tilt-valve is not a difference between BD and BG engines. I have a BD264 that is tilt-valve configuration.
     
  9. John Donnelly

    John Donnelly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    This is where I am on the fence at now.

    BG241

    Advantages

    • Pistons easily sourced
    • As built engine

    Disadvantages

    • Lower power
    • smaller engine

    BD264

    Advantages

    • Bigger engine
    • More power

    Disadvantages

    • Hard to find some internal parts (pistons and valves)
    • Prone to tossing rods
    • Not as long-lived as smaller BD and BG engines

    Still, the 264 in the "right hands" might prove to be the magic bullet. And with the roller valve trains available for these engines being only a web-click away, combined with the possibilities for cams and forced induction, this might be just the ticket.

    But, the 240/241 engines are stone reliable. Not one that I have found isn't. The 264 is a bit more persnickety. What I don't get is why 264 hard parts are difficult to find when IH sold so many of them in so many trucks over the years, yet you can get 240/241 stuff with a road trip to Portland and a visit to PER :confused:

    My plan is gelling, thanks to the brains of the BB, once again :) :clap:

    -John
     
  10. IHWillys

    IHWillys Farmall Cub

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    Perhaps your answer is right there... 241s are reliable and didn't need to be rebuilt much over the years, 264s broke and the resulting rebuilds soaked up the spares to leave us where we're at now.

    Ken
     
  11. MarkO

    MarkO Farmall Cub

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    Since I find the smell of diesel smoke in the morning as one of the nicest smells, I don't understand why you don't want to consider a diesel.

    But since it is your truck and you don't want to consider a diesel, what can I say?

    I do understand why you don't want to consider the V-type engines. The torque curves just are not as torquey as an inline engine. Once you get them going a V-type is great. But if you are in the low and slow mode, an inline engine is hard to beat.

    As any hot rodder can tell you, you can't beat cubic inches.

    Since you know the limitations of the larger engine, used by a knowledgable person the larger engine should run just as well as the smaller engine. And all done without a lot of extra expense squeezing out more HP out of a smaller engine.

    Regardless of which engine you choose, if you open up all of the intake and exhaust passages to acheive the smoothest flow through the engine, get a free breathing air cleaner and a low restriction exhaust to help the flow and you should have a pretty decent running engine.

    While a turbo is sort of cool, and F.I. is high tech the bottom line is you want something that is dependable and economical. As Scotty once said in one of the Star Trek movies, "...the more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drains."

    Remember, the larger engine was used in some fairly large trucks for quite a number of years. Successfully. The only thing is they were never found in the hammer lane passing everyone.

    Good luck and keep us posted.

    Mark O.
    Castle Rock, WA
     
  12. John Donnelly

    John Donnelly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Because I am not in the mood to embark on an engineering project to install one in this truck.

    I have had Diesel's for years. Swear by them, but not for this project.

    -John
     
  13. John Donnelly

    John Donnelly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Well, towing needs and recreation needs have dictated that a V-8 will be going in Terror-All.

    :(

    Not what I wanted, but that is how it goes.

    -John
     
  14. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    A 266, I hope! :)
     
  15. John Donnelly

    John Donnelly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    My selections are:

    345's and one 392.

    With a 5 speed direct.

    John
     
  16. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    The big pigs :rolleyes:

    I vote 345 w/EFI :)

    I recently had the 1959 SV-8 intro color sales brochure out for entertainment. The 345 was recommended for rigs *above* 40,000#GCW.....
     
  17. John Donnelly

    John Donnelly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    If I had a 266 that I could rebuild, I would use it. But those aren't exactly easy to find.

    345 with EFI was the plan. :D

    -John
     
  18. Mark Ashford

    Mark Ashford Moderator.. or something Staff Member Moderator

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    I know were one is. Supposed to be a good runner on top of that.

    Its currently attached to an early 1500 frame that I wouldn't mind having, and probably headed to the scrapper VERY soon.


    Its between our two respective homes, probably closer to you than me, but I won't have any time to make a run anytime soon (my range is quite limited for some reason :D)Maybe Dan could be persuaded to to a run and grab and save if from the crusher and we could split whatever fee he would charge...
     
  19. Colin Rush

    Colin Rush Man of Voive Staff Member Moderator

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    How about a 266 that runs?

    http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/398185984.html

    Go south, pick it up, and head to Waldport for the weekend. Or, arrange to pick it up on the way to the Dunes Trip.

    If I had found that earlier, I would have a 266 instead of a rebuilt 304.

     
  20. Jim Grammer

    Jim Grammer Editor at large Staff Member Moderator

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    I know they're big lumps of iron, and it hurts when you stub your toe on one, but suck up and store if neccessary any and all 266's you can find. They are the finest engine IH ever put in a light truck, and an absolute joy to flog! :)
     

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