Auto 727 on a slant 152?

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by Red_Dragon, Apr 16, 2004.


  1. Red_Dragon

    Red_Dragon Farmall Cub

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    A 727 auto tranny will bolt up to a 152, correct? But it will be at an angle. Will that affect the operation of the tranny? What about the Transfer case? I already have the Dana 20. I would really love to drop an auto tranny in this little monster. I don't have enough limbs to run that rotten 3spd without stalling out all the time. And the parking brake doesn't work and if I had an auto, I wouldn't need to fix it.

    -J
     
  2. scoutman800

    scoutman800 Y-Block King

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    you still need a parking brake, trust me. i don't believe the pattern is the same for the borgwarner auto and 727, but maybe the 727 with an IH pattern will bolt up. if'n it were me, i'd be looking for a 4 speed. hopefully someone who's done a 727 swap or tried will chime in.
     
  3. scoutman800

    scoutman800 Y-Block King

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    i wrote bolt pattern(duh) but was thinking input shaft.
     
  4. Red_Dragon

    Red_Dragon Farmall Cub

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    I live in Florida, there's nowhere to roll to, you're already there. :D
    Is there any auto tranny that is a direct bolt-up to the 152, and will work with a T-case? T-case type doesn't matter, I have a dana 18 and 20 lying about.

    -J
     
  5. OrngCrush

    OrngCrush Farmall Cub

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    The old slant four bangers had the same bolt pattern (from what I remember) on the bell housing as the V8s, so it should bolt up just fine (as long as the flex plat will bolt to the crank). The main problem I see you running into is that the four popper manual bell housings where shorter than the V8's bell housing, meaning that your t-case will be moved back by several inches causing the shifter to not line up with the hole in the floor board and needing to shorten and lengthen drive shafts. As far as the slant staying a slant, don't worry. The 152 is just a 304 missing the driver side bank.
     
  6. Dan Phariss

    Dan Phariss High Wheeler

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    If the angle does nto damage the tranny....
    The flexplate will have to have its balance changed to neutral since the I-4s are internally balanced and the V-8s are externally balanced. The v-8 flexplate has a big weight welded too it to balance the v-8. Will cause serious, engine damaging vibration if run on an I-4.
    Then there is the HP problem. The 152 is not a powerhouse and the gearing of the 727 is for bigger engines. Putting a 727 behind a 152 may well turn it into a dog.
    We need to be realistic here. I don't know of any manufacturer who used a auto on an engine this small in a heavy vehicle. For good reason.

    Dan
     
  7. OrngCrush

    OrngCrush Farmall Cub

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  8. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think you guys may be missing the big picture here!!

    "I don't have enough limbs to run that rotten 3spd without stalling out all the time"
    I think he is saying he is partially impaired and is having a hard time using the clutch.

    Red Dragon.
    Along with some of the other concerns with the 727. I think if you could run the deep pan and the deep pick up the tilt would not adversly affect the trannys operation. We run these things at all kinds of angles and I have never had my slush box starve for fluid!!
    As you Know I run FI and put mine at about it's max angles regularly. :D

    I think the major concern would be the flexplate balance and the length. If you are planning new driveshafts then it may not be an issue.
     
  9. Dan Phariss

    Dan Phariss High Wheeler

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    If this is the case he is better served to sell the 80 and buy something that will actually function well with an auto. A turbo that is apparently in planning is not going to solve all the problems related to an engine with low power output with a big auto tranny geared for a engine with at least 150 more cubic inches.
    The autos geared for smaller engines generally have lower first gears so the smaller engine can get things rolling with some authority. The TH700R4 has a lower 1st gear then the TH350 which is higher than the TH400 1st designed for BBs. The lower gearing lets the 305 Chevy with a TH700 in a suburban move off stop lights with a little more snap.
    The 727 is a HD auto built with BB v-8 engines in mind. They can give away hp to the tranny and nobody knows the difference. The 152 does nto have a lot extra to give away.
    If he does this in all likelyhood it will be unsatisfactory and he will then be into it for more money that he can get out of it so he will want to swap in a v-8 to make the tranny work and another 80 will get butchered.
    Not everything done the hard way works or is the best idea.
    One of GMs small THs might be a better choice liek TH 200 or what every they were using behind some of the small engines at one time. But I have no idea how good they are or how they are geared.

    Dan
     
  10. OrngCrush

    OrngCrush Farmall Cub

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    All the TH200 is is a TH350 or TH400 (the lighter duty of the two) with all of the rotating parts lightened. I've seen plenty of people ask hot rod mag's why they can't get performance parts for these trannys, and each mag tells them to get rid of that tranny for a different one. GM decided to lighten the sun shells and planetaries to help with fuel economy in the 80's and all they really did was weaken the transmission to the point where breakage became a big problem.


    Every 4 popper I've seen and driven with an auto has been slow. The only times I've seen otherwise is when it was turbo charged, then it was only a dog till the turbo kicked in (Ford 2.3 with a C4 to be specific). Of coarse up here the air is kinda thin. It could very well be a different story down at sea level.


    I'm still curious if someone has done the 727 with a 196/152 though. It's a good bet that the scout will have bigger issues getting out of its own way with the 727, but someone out there has to have done it at least once. Right? If not I think I know what my next project is going to be...... Now I just need to find a dirt cheap 80/800......
     
  11. Red_Dragon

    Red_Dragon Farmall Cub

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    What about the mail Scouts? Someone said they had a mid-60s mail Scout with and auto that was 4x2. Could this trannie be adapted to a transfer case? Anyone got one lying around?

    -J
     
  12. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I heard the SII with the 196 was avail with the auto.
    I thought I read a post on here from a guy that had one.
    Maybe someone that knows for sure will answer up.

    I may be alone but I think anything a stick can do the auto is better. ;)

    The build up needs to be a complete package.
    Right gears/tires/tranny/torque conv/transfercase/motor.
    You just have to plan it out before you start throwing parts at it.
     
  13. Binderman

    Binderman Binder Driver

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    ScoutII w/196,727 thread

    Guote by Bill "I may be alone but I think anything a stick can do the auto is better." NOPE!! May only be two of us thought?

    How bout a FI'ed 196 with a 727. Sounds like a SWEET combo to me??

    I had never thought about an auto behind the 4 bangers before, as I thought it would be common. Shows ya what I know..

    Wish ya luck!!
     
  14. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm seriously considering that for my next project(when I return from europe in 3 years)
    Looking for an 800 with a 196 from the scout II since they are at normal position and not angled. then FI and run the 727 with a D300!
    If I really need more crawl than I guess the $500 planetary gear set for the 727 would be a nice addition! Gives you a low range and a 1:1.


    But all bets are off if IH starts selling their 4cyl turbo diesel in the USA! :D :D
     
  15. Randy Groenhof

    Randy Groenhof Binder Driver

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    Thought I might add my little bit of experience on this subject. We bought a stock Scout II 2wd with a locked up 196 and a 727,have yet to see another since. we had a rebuilt 152 with no home and could not resist trying it in the scout II. the 196 does have a different flywheel from the v8 as noted above but the toque converter was also smaller than the v8 ( higher stall speed? ) Well we were not very happy with the 152/727 combo at all and yes it was very slow. Well a t-19 wide was added and helped a lot but now the truck has a 345 and 4wd. I still miss the 152 though. I have seen a postal scout 800's with a 152 and ( if not mistaken ) borg/warner auto but i not not have any experience with them.
     
  16. IHREDRIDER

    IHREDRIDER Farmall Cub

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    For anyone interested, I have been working on a Scout project for about 6 mo. Part of the project is a 196 727 combo. I finally got the point of testing it under it's own power. Good news the 196 727 do work togather. all you have to do is grind off the counter balance weights on a 304,345,392 flex plate, make sure you remove the weights from both sides of the flex plate. I removed mine with a chop saw, kinda brutal but it worked and I only ground my fingers once. I don't have any data on how the lack of power is going to work out yet.
     
  17. Lyle Wiese

    Lyle Wiese High Wheeler

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    727 on a 196

    Check out Carl and Dan's work on attaching a 727 to a 196 here:

    http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11149&page=6&pp=30

    I don't know all of the particulars, but the 196 is from a Scout II and the engine was lowered and moved back a little. The biggest problem was the clearance in the tranny tunnel. Actually there was almost none. They had to cut and modify it a lot. They are using a Dana 300 TC behind it.

    Take a look at their thread and feel free to ask about it.

    Lyle
     
  18. Carl Wiese

    Carl Wiese Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    What you should look for is a 800 with a 196 and a BW auto. They came in both 4x2 and 4x4 versions, this would almost be a direct bolt in and solve most of your problems.

    If you follow this link Our 727 in a Scout 80 almost at the bottom of the page, second post from the last, is a series of 3 pictures of how much we had to cut the tranny tunnel to make the 727 fit. As it stands, right now the shifter shaft and kick down linkage is in the cab. You will have to cut more as our engine sits lower. The one saving grace you may have is the fact that because the engine clocked. The drivers side of the tranny will be oriented lower. You will have to fab a new cross member. Also, your tranny is going to hang lower then your frame as is your Transfer case.

    To compensate for the angle the tranny would sit at I would run a Mopar high capacity pan. I can get you the P/N if you want it, you will have to get it from a Mopar dealer.

    Let me know if you need anymore pics or info, it just so happens I have a Scout 80 with a 727 and a stock Sxcout 80 in my garage as we speak!

    Carl
     
  19. Carl Wiese

    Carl Wiese Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Keep watching, you'll see it in the next couple of weeks!!!

    Carl
     
  20. binderbound

    binderbound High Wheeler

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    Like Carl said, we had to cut A LOT of tunnel out. But I did lower the engine 4 inches and move it back 3 inches (better weight dist). Lowering it made it fit a little better, but I wanted the trademark IH flat bottom. So leveling the drivetrain out (making the T-case higher than the frame rails) put everything up right into the tunnel. We had to space the tunnel up an inch to keep the T-case from hitting it. Not to mention your T-case shift levers are WAY off from stock. Even with our twin stick adapter, we still missed the stock hole by 4 or 5 inches.

    Our very custom need for an auto made for some very custom solutions. If we had more of a need for 'stock' we might have done different things.
     

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