antifreeze

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by binders4ever, Jan 25, 2018.


  1. binders4ever

    binders4ever Farmall Cub

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    i realize that there are gonna be contrasting opinions, but what would be the best antifreeze to run in my new engine. new everything and radiator ,broken in,ready to flush and use antifreeze.tucson ,arizona. i have always used green ,but suggestions please
     
  2. bull

    bull Binder Driver

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    Ethylene glycol......
     
  3. walkersscout

    walkersscout High Wheeler

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    I use Dex Cool (GM, orange) in everything I have.
     
  4. scoutboy74

    scoutboy74 Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Stick with green. Only time to run the orange stuff by choice is during compliance with an active warranty on a late model GM product. Orange juice offers no benefit over green in terms of cooling ability, corrosion protection or change intervals, despite the marketing hype.
     
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  5. David Banner

    David Banner High Wheeler

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    I would start with straight water until you confirm nothing leaks. Then you can flush it straight to the ground to get any stray dirt out of the now "sealed" system.

    Then like the others have said 50/50 glycol. But check the charts on the bottle. 60/40 might give you even better heat protection for AZ. Deep freeze is probably less of a concern to you there...
     
  6. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I concur with the others. The OAT's (Orange, Red, etc.) where primarily for new vehicle long range warranties, OTR trucks long change intervals, plus enhanced aluminum protection for aluminum blocks. There is no advantage to older rigs. The only confusion with green is picking the right bottle, i.e. did I get part water or all ethylene? Even then the additives are much better today than when it started out almost 50 years ago. 2 year change outs should still be followed. For me, Green is Good. Conversion is an indepth time consuming process. Any residuals of glycol left in a heater core, nooks and crannies, head corners will ruin the new charge of whatever is being converted to.
     
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  7. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    If you do happen to buy the "straight up" green stuff , Distilled water should be used to cut it ,
    A small bottle of Napa coolant additive won't hurt , I have used Redline "water wetter " with
    decent results in my 2000 chebby 6.5 deezel ( dropped 5-10 degs while towing ) No concrete
    proof but seemed to help
     
  8. walkersscout

    walkersscout High Wheeler

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    Only reason I use Dex cool is that is what my work trucks take, so that is what I keep in stock. I have had no issues with it, had no issues with the green either.

    Here is some interesting reading on Dex Cool, you can make up your own mind if it's better or not.

    All about Dex-Cool®


    The following information has been gathered by myself through contacts in the automotive industry and my personal mechanical experience. I have tested the below information thoroughly to be accurate on my own GM and Daimler-Chrysler vehicles. I also have contacted GM and DC service departments to verify this information and they certify it is 100% accurate as of their October 2002 technical publications.

    Dex-Cool (ethylene glycol) is identical to the Chrysler & General Motors factory fill. Havoline had the original patent on Dex-Cool and manufactures it for GM. The benefits of Dex-Cool are:



    • Lower alkalinity
    • Contains NO silicates, resulting in longer lasting water pump and engine seals; longer shelf life.
    • It is Nitrite-, borate-, phosphate-, nitrate- and amine-free.
    • 100% biodegradable in its pure unused condition.
    • Longer lasting (Dex-Cool has been shown to remain above 95% of its original concentration after 150,000 miles in automobiles)
    For optimum year round protection against freezing, boiling and corrosion, a 50 percent Dex-Cool solution (1 part anti-freeze/1 part water) is recommended. For maximum protection against freezing in extremely cold areas a 60 percent solution (3 parts anti-freeze/2 parts water) can be used. Concentrations greater than 67 percent or less than 50 percent are not recommended.

    [​IMG]
    If your vehicle came with the inferior green stuff (propylene glycol), you must do a complete and thorough flush before switching to Dex-Cool. Also make sure to stay away from 'organic based' rust inhibitor additives. They originated in Euro/Asian markets and are not compatible with Dex-Cool. These additives may cause gumming of the antifreeze. OEM style additives designed for use with the green antifreeze (propylene glycol) may reduce the durability of Dex-Cool. If you started off with green, GM recommends switching to Dex-Cool in their technical service bulletins. If you choose to continue using green, just check the alkalinity more often. Green will keep you protected thermally just as well as red.

    As for deciding when to change your antifreeze, don't go by miles or you WILL certainly have seal and mechanical failures. One interesting spec I found is to use a multimeter. You put your negative probe to the negative post on your battery. You then place the positive probe in the neck of your radiator, making sure that the positive probe touches nothing but the antifreeze. Make sure the coolant is warm but not HOT (this is for SAFETY reasons as well as accuracy of your readings. Always be careful when opening the radiator cap on a warm engine). Your readings (regardless of negative symbol on readout) should be:

    • 0.2 V to 0.5 V - antifreeze is still good
    • 0.5 V to 0.7 V - antifreeze is borderline
    • 0.7 V or greater - antifreeze is unacceptable.
    You can also use test strips (available at a quality auto parts store for $5 or less), they work on both green and red types too. But if you already have a multimeter, why go buy test strips? The multimeter is the more technically accurate method anyway.

    As for sludging and early parts failure, it is imperative that you keep the antifreeze topped off or the low fluid level will cause sludging. There is a GM Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) on this matter. Dex-Cool's extended service intervals are made possible from its patented organic acid corrosion inhibitor system that eliminates the need for silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites, and amines. Elimination of these additives is significant because many of them are abrasive to water-pump seals.

    Another way to ensure longer life of parts and get better corrosion protection is to make sure you USE DISTILLED WATER when mixing with antifreeze. By just using regular tap water you contaminate the new Dex-Cool and drastically lower the corrosion protection. Distilled water barely costs 59¢ a gallon in my area. So there's no excuse for spending $7.99/gallon on Dex-Cool and then ruining it because you're too lazy to add 59¢ a gallon distilled water to it.

    For further information on this antifreeze/coolant, I certainly encourage visiting the listed sources below. In particular, you should visit the ASTM site and view the following sources/standards:

    • Chevron Texaco. Website: http://www.chevrontexaco.com/
    • Havoline. Website: http://www.havoline.com/
    • American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) Website: http://www.astm.org/
    • USDOT Office of Defects Investigation, Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) search engine: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/
      D512 Test Methods for Chloride Ion in Water
      D516 Test Methods for Sulfate Ion in Water
      D1119 Test Method for Percent Ash Content of Engine Coolants and Antirusts
      D1120 Test Method for Boiling Point of Engine Coolants
      D1121 Test Method for Reserve Alkalinity of Engine Coolants and Antirusts
      D1122 Test Method for Density and Relative Density of Engine Coolant Concentrates and Engine Coolants by the Hydrometer
      D1123 Test Methods for Water in Engine Coolant Concentrate by the Karl Fischer Reagent Method
      D1126 Test Method for Hardness in Water
      D1177 Test Method for Freezing Point of Aqueous Engine Coolants
      D1193 Specification for Reagent Water
      D1287 Test Method for pH of Engine Coolants and Antirusts
      D1293 Test Methods for pH of Water
      D1384 Test Method for Corrosion Test for Engine Coolants in Glassware
      D1881 Test Method for Foaming Tendencies of Engine Coolants in Glassware
      D1882 Test Method for Effect of Cooling System Chemical Solutions on Organic Finishes for Automotive Vehicles
      D2570 Test Method for Simulated Service Corrosion Testing of Engine Coolants
      D2809 Test Method for Cavitation Corrosion and Erosion-Corrosion Characteristics of Aluminum Pumps with Engine Coolants
      D3321 Test Method for Use of the Refractometer for Field Test Determination of the Freezing Point of Aqueous Engine Coolants
      D3634 Test Method for Trace Chloride Ion in Engine Coolants
      D4327 Test Method for Anions in Water by Chemically Suppressed Ion Chromatography
      D4340 Test Method for Corrosion of Cast Aluminum Alloys in Engine Coolants Under Heat-Rejecting Conditions
      D4725 Terminology for Engine Coolants
      D4985 Specification for Low Silicate Ethylene Glycol Base Engine Coolants for Heavy Duty Engines Requiring a Pre-Charge of Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)
      D5223 Specification for Engine Coolant Grade Propylene Glycol
      D5827 Test Method for Determination of Chloride in Engine Coolant by Ion Chromatography
      D5931 Test Method for Density and Relative Density of Engine Coolant Concentrates and Aqueous Engine Coolants by Digital Density Meter
      D6210 Specification for Fully Formulated Ethylene Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy Duty Engines
      D6211 Specification for Fully Formulated Propylene Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy Duty Engines
      E1177 Specification for Engine Coolant Grade Ethylene Glycol Other Documents
      D1888 Test Methods for Particulate and Dissolved Matter, Solids, or Residue in Water
      SAE HS40 Maintenance of Automotive Engine Cooling Systems
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  9. walkersscout

    walkersscout High Wheeler

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    Definitely, I always do this, especially after a major repair. Nothing worse than getting everything up and running and having to drain your fresh coolant fill because of a leak somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  10. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    DexCool vs Traditional; what we're really comparing are the additive/protection strategies. The OATs protect by forming oxides on the metal surface to protect the parent metal beneath them. The additive's long life is because once the oxide is formed, no more is used/depleted from the formula. The caveat has two prongs: Seals and hoses must be compatible with the organic acids used, so high end EPDM rubber should be in all hoses and seals in contact with engine coolant. The other is the system must be full at all times. Once the coolant level is low, exposed metal immediately rusts/corrodes and I believe was the source of the Dex Cool complaints in the 1990s until sealed coolant systems such as hot bottle systems were used.

    The silicates phosphates additives protect by coating the wetted parts and castings. Over time these are depleted and why service intervals of 2 years are required. They can be supplemented by SCAs or Supplemental Coolant Additives particularly in OTR and fleet vehicles with high annual mileages. Their down side is frequent service and not recommended for some Asian engines because of seals and some engine designs where it would impede heat transfer . The good is they're compatible with wide platforms of older vehicles and parts, simple to remember, and easily sourced in urban and rural areas.

    I think the biggest push for advancing coolant technology is the global nature of the automotive world. The silicates and phosphates didn't work well in Europe, something to do with hard water problems, and the Asian producers had problems with localized heating failures and seal problems. This translates to the US because so many imports are here and many cars are rebadged imports (joint partnerships) as the Pontiac Vibe is a Matrix or the Dodge Colt was a Mitsubishi.

    As to the DMM voltage testing, just basing on potential is not enough and even then it needs done properly. Dirty and poor electrical grounds are long proven to be a source of cooling system corrosion. True that depleted and acidified coolant can act as an electrolyte, the target should be to eliminate all bad grounds first. The industry standard is no more than .3V, more than that needs a good ground checking including accessories.

    pH strips are the best for evaluation of the acid/base or exhaustion of the coolant. pHydrion( a brand with many varieties of intervals) pH strips can be found on Amazon and in some hobby shops and are inexpensive for their accuracy. Target pH should be in the 8-9 range for systems with aluminum in them such as newer radiators. Older iron blocks and copper/radiators like 8-10. Do not let it go below 8.

    The electrical meter test should be done with a platinum wire as it is the most noble and has least potential. Standard DMM probes are either nickel or chrome plated and the reading can reflect the potential between the plating and ground rather than the actual coolant. If all grounds are good, and the reading is above .3V, then change the coolant. MACS, Mobile Air Conditioning Society, is a service industry website and periodical for techs in the biz. They have great information to further your reading with real world updates and manufacturer's developments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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