A little stumped, no top end oiling on rebuilt 345....

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by IH64Scout, May 19, 2013.


  1. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    I helped Eric (MTownScout) rebuild and EFI a 345 for his scout 800A that Levi restored for him. We had it done with BBC valvesprings and umbrella seals, new comp cam and comp lifters, standard size bore and bearings, disassembled and cleaned the boat style rockers and 9 stand rocker assembly, the heads were gone though, refreshed the oil pump.....got it together and in, then broke in the cam, 50 psi oil pressure @2000 rpm, 25@ idle. it was a little noisy on the top end but nothing insane. well when we went to pull it out 2 pushrods bent! :censored: unstuck the valves, replaced pushrods and ram w/out the vcs. it was wet, but not pouring out oil.i removed the rocker assembly to make sure the holes were aligned and there was no blockages. all looks good, well then we thought a cam bearing was misaligned or the head gaskets were upside down... i ran the oil pump with an old dizzy and eric turned the engine over with a bar and when the cam "aligned" the oil almost shot across the fender! :cornfused: put the assembly back on and the oil instantly poured across the rocker arms. well.... ok started it back up..... nothing. still dry. :hammer::taz: took it for a spin to see if maybe it'd free up or something. well it started tapping loud and missing.... another pushrod???? we got pulled back to the shop and i was going to limp it in. i hit the key it tapped and missed for a second then got quieter and smooth out. i'm completely lost we called the rebuilder and he said he never heard of anything like that and said he's positive the bearings are right. he thought it might be an issue with comp lifters? when i run the oil pump you can see the oil pouring around the lifters and running down the valley and it peaks out at 50 psi never fluctuates. any suggestions? not sure what else to do before.... gulp... tearing deeper into the freshly painted 345. :no: any ideas greatly appreciated!
     
  2. Will Marsh

    Will Marsh Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,315
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Loveland, CO
    Did you forget to put the core plugs in the front of the lifter galleries behind the timing cover? That's my thought from your description, and you aren't the first one to miss them. Tom Mandera did that once. ;)

    HTH,

    Will Marsh
     
  3. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    Hmmm i would have assumed the machine shop would have done that.... any pictures of what they are?
     
  4. tdc

    tdc Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    2,243
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    PNW
    Did you use sealer on the rocker stand bolts?
    Make sure to align the timing marks before loosening the rocker stands. Otherwise pushrods bend.
    I had those umbrella seals installed once. Then my valves stuck,
    also found the umbrella seals disintegrated in the valve springs and clogged the drainback holes.
    Since then I stay with the FSM specs and original R&D design.
     
  5. 1975IH200

    1975IH200 Y-Block King

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,330
    Likes Received:
    590
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Western North Carolina
    "Hmmm i would have assumed the machine shop would have done that.... any pictures of what they are?"
    __________________

    Here is a photo of the front of the IH SV-8 engine.
    You can see one of the oil gallery plugs thru the hole in the cam gear. There are two plugs on the front of the engine.
    You can pull the distributor and see the other one with an inspection mirror.
    Another oil gallery plug is easily visible at the forward, lower left corner of the block. It has a press fit style plug.
    If the plug is missing at the rear of the block, oil will be pouring out of the bell housing.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  6. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    There was sealer used, what would lining up the timing marks do? Weird I never heard of any issues with the umbrella seals...
     
  7. tdc

    tdc Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    2,243
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    PNW
    Lining up the timing marks takes the load off the valve springs, as explained in the FSM.:beer:
     
  8. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    The plugs are threaded? If they were out wouldn't no oil at all get to the top even when we rotated it? So it only gets oil when that hole lines up in the cam??? And I never knew that I figured they were still pushing on the valves....
     
  9. Jay Tabor

    Jay Tabor Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2002
    Messages:
    4,716
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Pahrump, Nevada
    the oil galley plug at the bottom right side of front of engine block [when looking at it]
    is a 3/4 inch plug, [or some size close to that]
    if its missing i doubt youd get any oil squirting up out of the heads thru the oil holes.
    oil to the cam and lifters are from different oil galleys .
    #5 CAM BEARING supplies oil to the lifters
    #2 cam
    and #4 cam
    bearing oil galleys supply oil to the respective heads and associated parts like rocker arm shaft and rocker arms.
    very strange you get oil when barring the engine.
    i say front main oil galley plug aint there.
    ive done that too.
    pull off valve covers and run the engine
    pull off timing cover and look for the missing oil galley plugs​
     
  10. Will Marsh

    Will Marsh Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,315
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Loveland, CO


    I agree with Jay up to the last sentence which contradicts his first sentence. I think the main galley plug is there, but one or both of the cam galley plugs is not. That would get oil to the lifters, but not to the top end. No pressure from the lifters up.

    I'd start by pulling the distributor and looking for that plug first. Or prime the pump again and see it it's pouring oil in the distributor shaft out of the hole where the plug should be.

    In any case I think you're pulling the engine and timing cover to fix it. :( Sucks to be you.

    Will Marsh​
     
  11. Eric VanBuren

    Eric VanBuren Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maple Valley , Wa
    The fact that you say that it will shoot the oil across the room when the cam is lined up indicates that things are correct in the block. The oil to the rockers is metered by the cam since they don't need full pressure lube. The plugs in the timing cover are for the lifters. The lifters do get full pressure since they get their oil from the rear bearing, and that cam journal is grooved to provide unrestricted oil flow. If you are seeing oil pour out around the lifters then those plugs are in place.

    Were the rocker shafts and stands fully disassembled and cleaned? Including removing the plugs from the shafts?
     
  12. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    I didn't take the plugs out of the rocker shafts.... But when I had them on the oil went through the rocker assembly and down every rocker. So those plugs are just for the lifters...i can see through the heads the lifters are getting a whole lot of oil!
     
  13. Nick Rayer

    Nick Rayer Binder Driver

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2001
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Dexter, Michigan
    If the rocker arm shafts were disassembled and cleaned, did the proper stand get installed for the oil feed to flow through?

    Nick
     
  14. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    the stands line up with the oil holes. The ones with the notch in the bottom are over the holes in the head. Theres what...3 notched ones on each head right?
     
  15. IH64Scout

    IH64Scout Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Jessup,PA
    thanks for the encouraging words... :tt2:

    i've studied this at the shop and again now. this is making me lose sleep! ugh....
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Erik VanRenselaar

    Erik VanRenselaar Y-Block King

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2001
    Messages:
    3,264
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Petaluma, CA
  17. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    17,136
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Whidbey Island, WA
    I'm sure you believe what your saying to be true but...
    Your problems had nothing to do with umbrella seals.

    First an Umbrella seal is exactly like the factory o-ring with a skirt on it so the excess oil will drip back to the head and not puddle on the guide.
    it in no way starves the guide of oil or can cause a valve to stick.
    Trying to run PC seals will cause your indicated problems. They are designed to wipe the oil off the valve stem and they lock onto the guide to form a seal. See the BP knowledge base for details of each.

    Both the factory orings and the umbrellas are made of rubber. the quality of that rubber determines if it breaks down or not.
    I don't think I have disassembled a single IH head that still had the orings on the guides...which means they all broke apart and fell into the head drain back.


    Which leads us right back to my original valve train write ups and the cures for the common problems.

    I recommend you closely examine your problems and the actual cause of those problems because an umbrella seal is not the cause.
    HTH
     
  18. jeff campbell

    jeff campbell Lives in an IH Dealership

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    15,702
    Likes Received:
    1,652
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    lima,ohio
    i'll send you some heads to disassemble for me that still have O-rings/factory on them if you want me to bill ? jeff
     
  19. Bill USN-1

    Bill USN-1 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    17,136
    Likes Received:
    296
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Whidbey Island, WA
    No thanks Jeff.
    I've got plenty of my own. :sailor:
    I'm sure there's some still out there, but not many. That old rubber gets pretty hard and brittle after 30+ yrs under that valve cover.
     
  20. tdc

    tdc Dreams of Cub Cadets

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    2,243
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    PNW
    I had the heads done over and used the factory O rings, no umbrella seals. A litle puff of smoke on start up does not bother me at all anymore. :beer:
     

Share This Page