¾ ton Axle gasket Q

Discussion in 'General IH Tech' started by wjajr, Jan 27, 2016.


  1. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    1967 1200B PU. Dana 60


    When I removed the axles to replace refurbish brake system, there were no gasket between axle end and hub. Studs with fine thread & rusted stuck lock nut on outer end, and course thread in hub held axle in place. When removed, nut and stud came threaded out as one. One side had been weeping oil. Differential was low on oil when checked, I drained it, removed cover for a look-see, all looks good, and will refill once axles are reinstalled.

    Is there a premade gasket (6 holes) available at parts store for this axle? Part number?

    Can grade 8 bolts be subtitled in place of stud and nut arrangement to attach axle to hub?
     
  2. Jeff Jamison

    Jeff Jamison Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Yes I use bolts once the studs start coming out.There use to be gaskets,but I never use them,just put alittle rtv on there.
     
  3. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    This is an area that is often overlooked and frequently not understood. Maximum torque from the engine, multiplied by the axle ratio, is applied to this small area. Leakage is a sign of joint creep. That means there is slippage from either surface dings or not enough clamp force or both. Studs are by far the best for putting the maximum clamp force to that joint, while not wearing out the hub threads. Its better to replace a stud than strip a hub thread. I would go with new prevailing torque nuts, clean the hub threads and secure the studs with "Red" Loctite. A good gasket sealer that resists creep when the joint is properly torqued is Loctite PX 51813 : http://www.motocrossgiant.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=59-9191wps&click=989&gclid=CKe1jPm5y8oCFYqGfgodxk4H-w
    Generally the area is prepped with a primer before the Loctite is applied, and it really works good! A mechanic in the truck transmission/axle biz referred this stuff to me, and I've used it since. I figure if he was good enough for the Dale Earnhardt Team, he's good enough for me to listen too.
     
  4. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    Thanks for the tips Greg.

    I agree a stud would be capable of higher loading in shear than say a grade 8 bolt, has small non threaded segment where axle contacts it better able to resist loading and deformation. This truck is equipped with 241 ci. torque monster engine, which applies about 12 lb. shear force to each of the 12 studs or 24 lb. load to six because of open diff.; not much of a load in the big picture. Braking will generate much higher loading on those studs than the engine.

    Gasket maker claims its seal is easily broken at disassembly. This hub location can only be pried in one direction to defeat gasket unlike the examples of gear cases and such listed on package. How much of a tussle is required to remove axle sealed with 5183?
     
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  5. Robert Kenney

    Robert Kenney Binder Driver

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    JFYI
    Braking torque does not go through the axle / hub interface, but directly from the drum to the wheel.
     
  6. TBAKPhi22

    TBAKPhi22 Binder Driver

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    Don't put "Osh" or similar chinese grade 8 bolts on the axle; they're garbage. Ive snapped at least 3 of them putting axles back in over the years (lightly with an air gun). The IH ones have never broken... Ive used old spare intake manifold bolts instead to replace them.
     
  7. 2Trucks

    2Trucks Farmall Cub

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    I have never used sealer or gasket on drive axle flanges. I assemble the axle loosely and wrap cotton string around bolts or studs and torque as normal. Never had a problem.
     
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  8. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Wow does that bring back memories of my Grandpa , He used a wax coated string for a variety of gaskets
     
  9. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Those numbers are pretty small. How did you arrive at those figures?
    Disassembly is easy, a good sharp rap on the center and maybe a putty knife for a wedge and they come off.
     
  10. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    I have never used sealer or gasket on drive axle flanges. I assemble the axle loosely and wrap cotton string around bolts or studs and torque as normal.
    You mean just make a few loops around all six bolts, or each one plus all six?
     
  11. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    I pulled a wrong number out of my hat being 241 torque output of 140 lb ft. Using 240 lb ft, closer to a real number and Greg's formula: This is an area that is often overlooked and frequently not understood. Maximum torque from the engine, multiplied by the axle ratio, is applied to this small area.

    [240 lb ft x 4.11]/12 studs = 82.2 lb ft/ stud Studs are located about three inches from center of axle or 1/4 of a foot. 82.2 lb ft per stud /4=~20 lb Double the 20 for a peg-leg. My point is that a 7/16 anything can easily resist 100 lbs in shear, heck a 8 penny nail will hold 100 lbs. This axel is beyond over kill behind a low powered six as far as getting torque to the ground, however the load it supports is where the extra beef is needed.

    Sun rises over Marblehead:
    My atrophied brain might be looking at this wrong, and that 82.2 number needs to be multiplied by 4 which case each stud sees 368.8 lbs.

    Thinking out loud:
    Torque is a rotational force. One foot pound would be generated by using a 12 inch wrench attached to a bolt being pulled or pushed by one pound of force. To achieve one foot pound with a three inch long wrench, 4 pounds of force must be applied. Or using a two foot wrench, only one half pound of force is needed to apply one foot pound to bolt. So in the example above those studs at three inches would see around 370 pounds of force each.

    Oh, just disregard the whole torque mess above. I'll find some nuts to replace the rusted stuck ones.
     
  12. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    I think the transmission reduction needs to be calculated also ?? And then the OH Crap factor when your greasy boot side steps the clutch at 2500 rpm in
    first gear when your truck is rolling backwards about to make mincemeat out of the german SUV parked 3 inches from your bumper :1eye:
     
  13. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    I think the transmission reduction needs to be calculated also ?? And then the OH Crap factor when your greasy boot side steps the clutch at 2500 rpm in
    first gear when your truck is rolling backwards about to make mincemeat out of the german SUV parked 3 inches from your bumper.

    Well don't that paint a picture...

    Yes, the transmission multiplies torque, and drivetrain and accessory frictional losses reduce advertised torque the rear wheel see often by a third.
     
  14. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    Please, do not mistake me for a smartass. I actually enjoy the numbers side of things, and it helps me to understand why things are the way they are; and certainly an appreciation for the immense forces in the tools and machines some of us use on a daily basis. Not much info out there on these "joints", other than the usual "secure tightly" in repair manuals when addressing this axle end. Lots on wheel bearings, but not much on the axle end, except when you get into big trucks 5 ton payload and over where they list nut torques and those axles use wedging spacers to boot on the studs. (though Toyota saw the widsom of using them on their Land Cruisers) Here's my attempt: starting with 6 ea 7/16" studs torqued to 55/60 ft.lbs. you get a minimum clamp load of 8,000 psi. An I6 241's net torque is 211 ft. lbs. In direct or 4th X axle ratio(4.11) there's 867 ft. lbs at the wheel. Through the gear selections on a 4 speed, 3rd (1.6) would have 1,387 ft.lbs, 2nd(3.09) 2,679 ft.lbs, 1st(4.02) 3,486 ft.lbs. If it has a 6.054 1st gear, torque would be 5,250 ft lbs. All values below the 8,000 psi clamp load. I'm assuming a coefficient of .99 to 1 for clean steel on steel, then again probably a greater friction if a gasket of proper material, such as used on large trucks, or sealer (not RTV!!) with a slight adheasion is used. Jumping up to my 345 with a net torque of 268 ft. lbs, in 1st with a 6.054 ratio the max torque at the wheel would be 6,668 ft.lbs. The shear force would have to be greater than the clamp load BEFORE it even approaches the studs and studs won't see the stress as long as their clamp load is greater.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  15. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    Interesting topic , Greg , Curious how you are arriving at your figures of "clamp loads" of 8000 psi ?
     
  16. Greg R

    Greg R Lives in an IH Dealership

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    I got it from a chart of bolt torque vs clamp load. It follows the formulas for grade/ strength and thread pitch/torque in relation to yield and proof load. Bolt Science is also a good website with a retired GM Powertrain engineer that gives fastener tutorials on this biz. He explains it in easy language and the tutorials follow principals found in Mark's Manual of Engineering, but without the hard math. The figures represent the magnitudes, not precision as we neglect shock/peak load, friction, etc.

    I will include a link to one of many charts: http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionD/D48.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  17. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    It's been 40+ years since chasing these numbers in class, to be hones,t a lot of it since being absorbed has left the cranium cavity perhaps by solvents sold on tap, and in various 12 & 16 oz. containers, and other means... Mrs. wjajr believes that one can only remember 500 names at any one time (way more than my pea brain can handle by a factor of 25), and the 501st to be remembered causes one of the first 500 to be jettisoned; I suspect it is the same with other data. In my case too much TV perhaps is the genesis of lost knowledge, who is to say other than its long gone from the dome. Which suddenly raises a burning question, can kidney failure improve memory in some cases?

    Now that the excuse segment of this post is well documented, I agree that clamping forces generated by the threaded fasteners attaching axle to hub along with any gasket and or stickum is to be included in the analysis. Shear forces developed by moment on stud is the elephant in the room. I have no idea what strength steel IH used in its studs, but probably stronger than grade 8 bolt stock, and that whole assembly for the day, was way over engineered with a safety factor of 4 or more. In other words something else is going to brake before those studs fail.

    Interesting stuff.
     
  18. kevingweq

    kevingweq Y-Block King

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    If Mrs wjajr is anything like Mrs kevingweq she can easily remember 500+ names of your old girlfriends , women looked at for more than 5 seconds ,
    events forgotten that should of been remembered ( anniversaries etc. ) :1eye:
    As was mentioned previously heavier axles usually have not only studs but conical split inserts that lock onto the stud and seat into tapered holes in the axle flange when the nut is tightened , The best solution for getting them loose is a sharp rap on the end of the axle with a good sized hammer , This usually results in the axle bouncing out about 3 or 4 inches while releasing about a quart of stinky gear oil on the floor , Completely missing the carefully placed drain pan
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  19. wjajr

    wjajr Binder Driver

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    If Mrs wjajr is anything like Mrs kevingweq she can easily remember 500+ names of your old girlfriends , women looked at for more than 5 seconds, events forgotten that should of been remembered (anniversaries etc.).

    Oh yeah.

    I use her super human memory like a memory stick. Whenever I can't remember a name, which is pretty much every time I need to come up with said person's name, I just relate a story or description or some other jogger, and presto she comes up with it.
     
  20. 2Trucks

    2Trucks Farmall Cub

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    I had the good fortune to grow up in a small farming community. Most of my neighbors were very self sufficient and there were some good mechanics among them. One in particular had a garage and a small trucking company. They had a KB they drove over a million miles. This was a man that could weld paper back onto the tree. I learned a lot from them, wish now that I had learned more.
     

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