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Brendan
08-01-2003, 04:15 PM
Can someone fill me in on exactly what the differences are between these two transmissions? I have heard many different things, from they are the same thing with a different number to different bearing sizes. Who's got the facts?

Wheeled Scout
08-01-2003, 07:11 PM
The most significant difference is the bearing used for second gear, verse a bushing on the T18 second. Thus the main shaft's are not swappable. A majority of the cases are swappable, and a few of the other parts, possibly even the cluster gear.

Joe

Brendan
08-04-2003, 03:49 PM
How do they compare strength-wise? The bearing vs. bushing sounds like a point in favor of the t98. I'm watching for a t19 wide, like every one else. Is there any point keeping my eye out for a t-18?

Wheeled Scout
08-04-2003, 09:59 PM
No point in looking for the T18 wide, pretty much nonexistent with the long IH input shaft. Some say the T98 is a better tranny because of the bearing, some say there are oiling issues with the T98 main shaft. I'd rather have a bearing over a bushing. The T98 also has a slightly lower first at 6.4:1. Also the majority of the T98's are 10 spline two wheel drive trannies, IH only used the 10 spline variety. I just so happen to have a T98 from a jeep that is 6 spline output with D20 adapter, and I have an IH T98 input shaft. I'd love to get rid of it, but the shipping to NE would kill the price.

Joe

harleykeith2003
08-04-2003, 10:32 PM
I pulled 1 out of a 70 scout 800 and heard about a couple others coming out of 800s

Brendan
08-05-2003, 05:26 AM
The t98 in my 68 800 is a close ratio, I'm pretty sure. I only drove it under it's own power for about 50 yards. I really want the granny gear because i'm not going to run low axle gears to keep it highway friendly.

In what trucks was the t98 2wd used? Would that be a good source for the 6.xx fist gear?

Mechanos
08-05-2003, 09:02 AM
Might be a good source for 6.xx GEAR, but you will not be able to use the 2WD tranny in a married-case setup in a 4WD. The 2WD case is drilled for a bearing retainer and the 4WD case is drilled differently for the t-case adapter/bearing retainer. You could redrill the 2WD case for the adapter, but then there is the mainshaft situation. The 2WD tranny uses a 10 spline mainshaft and the 4WD tranny uses a 6 spline mainshaft. You could, however, find a 2WD wide box and swap the wide gears and cluster gear from it into the 4WD case and get your 4WD wide ratio tranny with the right mainshaft that way.....

Allan E
08-05-2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Brendan
The t98 in my 68 800 is a close ratio, I'm pretty sure. I only drove it under it's own power for about 50 yards. I really want the granny gear because i'm not going to run low axle gears to keep it highway friendly.

In what trucks was the t98 2wd used? Would that be a good source for the 6.xx fist gear?

Brendan-

The 68 800 used a T18. It's often confusing, because the top cover says T98.

All pickups and travelalls with 4 speeds used T98 transmissions until the T19 took its place in the early 70s. All were wide ratio. Likewise, the scouts all had T18s until the same time, and all were close ratio. You can actually tell which transmission you have by the gearing.

I agree with TORC, the way to do this is find a jeep T98 and use the IH gearset if it's possible. I don't know anybody who's tried. In fact, it wasn't until recently that I even knew Jeep used T98 transmissions, and that lit the light. Now I just have to find out where they were used, and how hard it would be to do the conversions with two good donor transmissions.

Wheeled Scout
08-05-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Allan E


Brendan-

The 68 800 used a T18. It's often confusing, because the top cover says T98.

All pickups and travelalls with 4 speeds used T98 transmissions until the T19 took its place in the early 70s. All were wide ratio. Likewise, the scouts all had T18s until the same time, and all were close ratio. You can actually tell which transmission you have by the gearing.

I agree with TORC, the way to do this is find a jeep T98 and use the IH gearset if it's possible. I don't know anybody who's tried. In fact, it wasn't until recently that I even knew Jeep used T98 transmissions, and that lit the light. Now I just have to find out where they were used, and how hard it would be to do the conversions with two good donor transmissions.

Jeep used the T98's in the J-trucks, the swap would be easy, just use the main shaft from the J-truck, use the rest of the parts from the IH T98, and redrill the case for the D20 adapter. Also if you're lucky and have a T18 top cover then you can use that for the reverse light.

Joe

Stephen Tate
08-05-2003, 11:03 AM
Joe D.- What is the input shaft like on that jeep trans.(shaft length and spline count)
I was wonderong if it would be the same as a 4cyl 800 t-98 shaft. That would be an easy swap for me (got a t-18 close w/t-98 top plate) If not, to get a wide I still have to find a Ford t-18 wide and swap the gots into my IH case. Just being wishful...

Wheeled Scout
08-05-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Stephen Tate
Joe D.- What is the input shaft like on that jeep trans.(shaft length and spline count)
I was wonderong if it would be the same as a 4cyl 800 t-98 shaft. That would be an easy swap for me (got a t-18 close w/t-98 top plate) If not, to get a wide I still have to find a Ford t-18 wide and swap the gots into my IH case. Just being wishful...

It's about as long as an IH input from a truck, but is smaller in diameter, and uses an odd bearing retainer. I would bet you could use a Ford T98 input, which is short in length, good sized diameter, and I think 10 spline.

Mechanos
08-05-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Allan E


Brendan-

The 68 800 used a T18. It's often confusing, because the top cover says T98.

All pickups and travelalls with 4 speeds used T98 transmissions until the T19 took its place in the early 70s. All were wide ratio. Likewise, the scouts all had T18s until the same time, and all were close ratio. You can actually tell which transmission you have by the gearing.

I agree with TORC, the way to do this is find a jeep T98 and use the IH gearset if it's possible. I don't know anybody who's tried. In fact, it wasn't until recently that I even knew Jeep used T98 transmissions, and that lit the light. Now I just have to find out where they were used, and how hard it would be to do the conversions with two good donor transmissions.
I don't know for sure since I've never been inside of a T-98, but the T-19 conversion goes something like this:

T-19 close to wide swap (http://www.mo-4xtoys.com/torc/tetanus/Tranny/T-19%20Mods.html)

I did this about a year ago but I still remember a lot of the little nuances (the pics help too :D) so feel free to ask questions if you have any and I'll try to answer them.

Brendan
08-05-2003, 03:47 PM
I was hoping this would turn into an informative thread.

Thanks for the info. I can add another jeep source for the t98---the FC trucks also used them. If you find one of these SAVE the shifter. They use a really bizzare shifter that wraps around the side of the case and runs forward a foot before it connects to the stick. They are hard to find and worth a fair bit of money to the FCrazies because it's the only way to get a four speed into the truck.

David Lang
08-05-2003, 05:06 PM
so it sounds like it's 6 gears to convert from close to wide (the 3 on the mainshaft for 1st, 2nd and 3rd and the corresponding gears on the countershaft)

are these gears available as parts from somewhere?

given the price that people are asking for used wide ratio transmissions it may actually be cheaper to get teh gears new.

Mike N
08-05-2003, 05:19 PM
The gears aren't available.

Wheeled Scout
08-05-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Mike N
The gears aren't available.

Should be, just need to find a good tranny shop, try Boarder Parts and see what they have to say.

But you're better off find a complete donor tranny.

Mechanos
08-05-2003, 08:15 PM
Can't speak for the T98, but for the T-19 it's five gears. Main drive gear, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and the cluster gear (looks like 4 gears but it's one solid piece). As for not being available, I bought a brand spankin' new reverse idler gear when I did the swap to replace the pitted gear. If that one was available, the others should be too I would think.

Mike N
08-05-2003, 08:34 PM
Border Parts says they aren't available?

Wheeled Scout - Do you have a source?

Wheeled Scout
08-06-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Mike N
Border Parts says they aren't available?

Wheeled Scout - Do you have a source?

Yeah a complete tranny :D

I also have another T98 that is 2wd and disassembled.

What exactly are you looking for?

David Lang
08-06-2003, 12:39 AM
there are several people who have been looking for a T-19 wide transmission, if replacing 5 gears can switch a close to a wide there are a number of us who would consider it (I would need to get an overdrive unit before I would use the wide, but I start gathering the pieces early :))

if a doner transmission is available in your area that's fine, but I have been looking at buying a transmission for $500 and have it shipped across 3 states to get to me, that's not going to be cheap and buying the gears and converting an existing transmission (or buying a T-19 locally to experiment with :)) is a whole lot easier

Wheeled Scout
08-06-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by David Lang
there are several people who have been looking for a T-19 wide transmission, if replacing 5 gears can switch a close to a wide there are a number of us who would consider it (I would need to get an overdrive unit before I would use the wide, but I start gathering the pieces early :))

if a doner transmission is available in your area that's fine, but I have been looking at buying a transmission for $500 and have it shipped across 3 states to get to me, that's not going to be cheap and buying the gears and converting an existing transmission (or buying a T-19 locally to experiment with :)) is a whole lot easier

So you'll spend 500 on a T19 W, but not 250 on T98? Had mine for sale a while back with no takers,.

David Lang
08-06-2003, 02:34 AM
two things I'm not thrilled about with the T-98

the bushing instead of bearing for some of the gears

the fact that 1st doesn't have a syncro

the lack of a syncro will matter more with an overfrive installed (basicly there will be two of 8 gears without a syncro)

I may still end up with a T98, there are people about 6 hours drive closer to me that have them available as well, although they are asking a bit more

Mechanos
08-06-2003, 07:05 AM
Well, the one new gear I did buy (reverse idler) listed at $125 and it was the smallest gear in the tranny!!! I would imagine that if you could buy the gears new and bought all the ones you needed, it would easily cost $800 to $1000 just for the gears!!!! Finding a donor is really the only "affordable" way to go.

Baradium
08-06-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Wheeled Scout
The T98 also has a slightly lower first at 6.4:1.
Joe

FYI, *some* T98s have a compound low range.... 9:1 first gear. Not very common at all, but I know someone who has one, so they do exist... makes for a very wide 1st-2nd shift!

Mechanos
08-06-2003, 09:09 AM
OK, you guys that have been into the T-18's and T-98's help me out here. You keep mentioning that the T-98 is beefier than the T-18 because it has bearings for the gears instead of bushings. So does that mean that the T-19 is total piece of dung? When I had both of my T-19's apart to do the swap, I saw no bearings or bushings for any of the gears except the cluster gear and reverse idler gear. :confused:

Damian Grihalva
08-06-2003, 10:14 AM
Snoop's got one. It came out of an 80 w/ a 152. The gears in it were toast when I got it so I got a 2WD trans from a Ford and had my tranny guy throw them in it. They were a direct bolt in.

It does have a short input gear,

Allan E
08-06-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
Snoop's got one. It came out of an 80 w/ a 152. The gears in it were toast when I got it so I got a 2WD trans from a Ford and had my tranny guy throw them in it. They were a direct bolt in.

It does have a short input gear,

Damian-

Scout 80s only came with T90 3 speeds. If you had a T18, somebody swapped it in.

-Allan

Damian Grihalva
08-06-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Allan E
Scout 80s only came with T90 3 speeds. If you had a T18, somebody swapped it in.

Not that I don't believe you Allan, but I've seen 3 or 4 now with these *T98* trans that have a short input and the owners claim that they were stock.

Allan E
08-06-2003, 05:39 PM
No scout, pickup, or travelall used a short input shaft T98. The top cover on all of the IH version T18s had T98 cast into them. What you've been seeing are T18s from Scout 800s or early scout IIs.

harleykeith2003
08-07-2003, 01:08 AM
whats the gear ratio of first in a t 18? how can you tell if it is a true t98 or a t18 with t98 top plate?Help----- I am in the process of putting the mystery tranny in my scout2 this might change my whole game plan Thanks in advance Harleykeith

Damian Grihalva
08-07-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Allan E
No scout, pickup, or travelall used a short input shaft T98. The top cover on all of the IH version T18s had T98 cast into them. What you've been seeing are T18s from Scout 800s or early scout IIs.

Even wide box T18s? For some reason most guys who *know* don't believe the T18s came in a wide-box configuration ~ yet that is exactly what I have.

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 11:10 AM
Still waitin' on a lineset from a Scout that was originally equipped with a wide ratio T18.

I'm doubtful there's even an IH part number for one...

A 4:1 T18 sure feels WIDE to folks that are used to driving something sportier - like a Porche 914, or a Honda Civic..

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by harleykeith2003
whats the gear ratio of first in a t 18? how can you tell if it is a true t98 or a t18 with t98 top plate?Help----- I am in the process of putting the mystery tranny in my scout2 this might change my whole game plan Thanks in advance Harleykeith

T18 - 4:1 1st, 2.4:1 2nd
T98 is more like 6.3:1, and 3:1

If it's married to a transfercase and it came from some sort of IH, it's a T18.

If it's divorced/2wd, highly likely to be a T98.

You may also find a casting number on the side of the transmission body (NOT the top cover).

Allan E
08-07-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by harleykeith2003
whats the gear ratio of first in a t 18? how can you tell if it is a true t98 or a t18 with t98 top plate?Help----- I am in the process of putting the mystery tranny in my scout2 this might change my whole game plan Thanks in advance Harleykeith

The T18 from scouts has a 4:1 first gear. The T98 found in pickups and travelalls has a 6.32:1 first gear, or somewhere close to it.

The T98 may have a PTO cover on the left or the right side. I have both.

If it's a 4 speed that came from a pre-T19 era scout and it has a married t-case, it's a T18. The bull gear for the D20 case is not found on the T98s, IH version.

If you have a 2wd it really doesn't matter. They're close enough to the same size that you just use what you have, as long as the gears are right.

I just went out to the driveway and set a T18 next to a T98. The top covers appeared to be identical. The T18, from a 68 scout, has the bull gear attached, whereas there is a different tail housing on the T98. At first glance, it looks as though the tailshaft "housings" are a bolt on swap for each other, although I have been told that it doesn't work that way. I don't intend to take them apart to find out. I just also looked under one of the pickups. The driver's side PTO version of the T98 is in the same location as the T18. The passenger side PTO on the one in the driveway is up a little higher. I sprayed some red paint on the lettering on the top cover and the sides of the transmission bodies so they would be easier to read. Unfortunately, I can't find my digital camera. You'll have to take my word for all of this. The casting is on the left (driver's) side of the transmission near the top front. It reads as follows:

T98-1P
W G DIV

I believe the WG stands for Warner Gear.

The T18 says:

T18A-1C
W G DIV

The top cover on both say:

T98-148H

Both top covers have the same reverse light switch. The shifters are shaped differently, but I seriously doubt that that's a significant factor, as I've seen many different shapes in different years. They probably interchange.

The biggest, and only significant difference I see besides the tailshaft housing styles, is that the sleeve over the input shaft is two inches longer on the T18. There is a longer set of splines on the T98. The T18 I have here has a V8 style input shaft. Both shafts have the same overall length, which makes me think that the bell housings are the same on IH vehicles as well. I could probably verify that by putting a T98 bell housing on the T18 and looking to see where the throwout bearing ended up. The pilot shafts appear to be the same, so the pilot bushing would therefore be the same.

The input shaft on the 4 cylinder setup is only 5 inches long. It's obvious that a different bell housing would be needed.

I hope that helps.

-Allan

Allan E
08-07-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by snoopy


Even wide box T18s? For some reason most guys who *know* don't believe the T18s came in a wide-box configuration ~ yet that is exactly what I have.

They didn't come in IH. That's a far cry from They didn't come in anything.

They came in jeeps.

They came in fords.

The gearsets swap in. The cases are the same, or close enough.

The input shafts probably swap as well. That means a Jeep tranny might take a short shaft for an IH 4 banger.

J trucks came with T98s with married t-cases. That means that you could find one in an IH at some point, especially if the input shafts swap.

4 speeds didn't come in scout 80s. If you got a 4 speed out of one, it's not original. Obviously, if you got one, you got one. I have no doubt that you can tell a 3 speed from a 4 speed. I'm just saying that scout 80s had 3 speeds. I'm not saying that you don't have a granny gear. I'm just saying it's not stock from a scout 80.

Supremebeholder
08-07-2003, 12:14 PM
I dont really know if it was a wide or close 18, but I had the chance to ride in snoopy on the trail and his first gear was pretty low. His crawl was lower than mine.

So, doing the math:
Mine is at a 51-1 ratio.

4*2.47*5.38= 53

6.32*2.47*5.38= 83

His seemed considerably lower than mine even with bigger tires.

I find it hard to believe that 2 people who know IH so well will make such a broad statement like IH never used a wide t-18. You guys know better than I do that IH did a lot of custom work and even building things with what they had laying around. IH had a lot of anomalies when it came to the parts they used.

Allan E
08-07-2003, 01:09 PM
Jacob-

Nobody disputes what gear ratios Damian has in Snoopy.

He said he got the 4 speed transmission from a scout 80. I believe him.

They didn't come in scout 80s. The only transmission option was a 3 speed, or the same 3 speed with an external overdrive.

That's the point. It wasn't original equipment in a scout 80, wide ratio or not. It's not too much of a stretch to say that anybody who could drop in a 4 speed to a scout 80 is likely to be able to swap in jeep gears.

IH didn't offer a wide 4 speed in scouts until they started using the t19. That doesn't mean there weren't any. Find a part number for it. Find a line set ticket for it. All the other gearing options had part numbers. If it was available, it's in the parts manual. If it was custom built, it really doesn't matter where. It just matters that you're not going to find another one from the factory, which is the whole point.

Dana 20s didn't come in scouts until 1980. If I have one in my 75 scout, do I get to claim that's where it came from? Sure, until I learn that it's not original. That has the added benefit of somebody like you (or me) not taking my word for it and not wasting time looking in the wrong original scouts. That doesn't mean you shouldn't look, it just means that grampa jones, who bought his scout new in 75, won't have a factory D300. If nobody's ever replaced the t-case, it's a D20.

Same principle. Blanket statement.

My friend Eldon once said to me, "anything can be made to fit into anything with enough work." Knowing what was original and what was not helps you find what you want, and helps you consider the possibilities from a more realistic point of view. Salvaging somebody else's good fabrication work rather than salvaging factory work doesn't change the gear ratio in snoopy one bit, nor does it diminish the quality of the work that Damian did to his scout, nor does it reflect poorly on him. I think we need to keep the perspective here. Nobody said Snoopy didn't have a wide ratio transmission.

Supremebeholder
08-07-2003, 01:37 PM
Dana 20s didn't come in scouts until 1980. If I have one in my 75 scout, do I get to claim that's where it came from?

Odd, I have dana 20s in all my scouts and I am pretty sure that they were original. ;)

I think we need to keep the perspective here. Nobody said Snoopy didn't have a wide ratio transmission.

Actually Tom did here:

Still waitin' on a lineset from a Scout that was originally equipped with a wide ratio T18.

I'm doubtful there's even an IH part number for one...

A 4:1 T18 sure feels WIDE to folks that are used to driving something sportier - like a Porche 914, or a Honda Civic.. [/quote]

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Supremebeholder
Actually Tom did here:

Sorta. Maybe Snoopy does have an elusive true wide-box T18.

But a LOT of people have *thought* they had a wide T18, only to later experience a true wide-box and then they realize the big difference.

And as Allan's pointed out.. his info indicates the Scout 80 never saw a 4spd - close or wide - so all bets are off on where the transmission Snoopy is running actually came from - sounds like NOT originally in the Scout he swiped it from.


And I've still never heard of anyone with a lineset showing a part number for a wide T18 in an IH.

Nor has anyone researched an IH service part # for the wide T18. If they used it, there's a part number, so you can get a replacement if it should fail.

Every piece of information I've seen/heard/touched indicates no Light Line vehicle left a North American manufacturing plant with a wide (6.32 1st) T18.

Similarly, "none" got the mid-split (~5:1) T19, either.

Lots of Fords got wide T18s. Lots of IHs got wide T98s.

No Close T98s in an IH, no wide T18s.

I'm willing to amend that if someone has a lineset or service catalog to the contrary though.

Supremebeholder
08-07-2003, 01:49 PM
I don't know anything on the history of Damians transmission, so I can't argue to it. All I know is that snoopy seemed to have a way lower crawl ratio than mine and a wide 18 would be responsible for that.

Jim Grammer
08-07-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Supremebeholder
I find it hard to believe that 2 people who know IH so well will make such a broad statement like IH never used a wide t-18. You guys know better than I do that IH did a lot of custom work and even building things with what they had laying around. IH had a lot of anomalies when it came to the parts they used.

No offense, but the old saw about IH using what was lying around gets overused ;) While no doubt there have been production 'anomalies' over the years, I'm sure they are minor. After all, they would be limited to what a line worker or team had available to them on a *moving* assembly line. To have a major component like a transmission get swapped in would require a lot more effort than that. Trucks were built according to the line set, and parts were delivered to the line according to the line set. Any change to a line set once it was cut would require the involvement of a fair # of folks, and is not likely to have gone un-recorded for a number of reasons. That's why Tom understandably wants a line set as proof.

No one's even found an IH property code for a T-18 wide, so how would such a unit have even gotten purchased, much less made it to the line? If a fleet customer had *really* wanted a T-18 wide in some Scouts, that's a possibility, but the whole order would have gone through Engineering, document control and purchasing at a minimum, so it's unlikely that they would have missed documenting the usage. To get management approval for a special order tranny in a Scout would have required a pretty sizable order(like military). You would think that there would be better(as in more out there) evidence by now. Looks like the trail's pretty cold on this one :eek:

grannygear
08-07-2003, 02:05 PM
I have a 4spd in my 800 V8 (67) that has a swapped in 345 with a front sump pan. The tranny behind it has a cover on it that is badged T-98 (so that makes it a T-18?) and has no reverse light switch on it or any provision for one.

It is a married case 4wd with a twin stick D20 behind it.

It is a 6.something - 1 1st gear (I clocked it)

It has the reverse on the correct spot for a T18 according to the web site FAQs.

So...what do I have? I don't know, but I like it.

Allan E
08-07-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Supremebeholder


Odd, I have dana 20s in all my scouts and I am pretty sure that they were original. ;)



As you could no doubt tell, I meant D300. No idea how I managed to type D20 in that first line. Sorry.
Originally posted by Supremebeholder

Actually Tom did here:

I'm doubtful there's even an IH part number for one...

A 4:1 T18 sure feels WIDE to folks that are used to driving something sportier - like a Porche 914, or a Honda Civic.. [/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. He said he didn't believe IH installed one at the factory. The quote about the sportier cars is in a different paragraph. I simply interpret it as two different statements.

Allan E
08-07-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by grannygear
I have a 4spd in my 800 V8 (67) that has a swapped in 345 with a front sump pan. The tranny behind it has a cover on it that is badged T-98 (so that makes it a T-18?) and has no reverse light switch on it or any provision for one.

It is a married case 4wd with a twin stick D20 behind it.

It is a 6.something - 1 1st gear (I clocked it)

It has the reverse on the correct spot for a T18 according to the web site FAQs.

So...what do I have? I don't know, but I like it.

I don't know, either, but it could be:

A T18 from a scout, with wide gears from another vehicle, such as a jeep or ford.
A T98 with a D20 from a J truck that had the input shaft swapped to the IH front shaft.
Some other combination of swapped in parts that I didn't think of.

I would certainly like to see a line set ticket on it to see what the original setup was.

How did you clock it? I can think of a way to do it, but it would be a major pain in the unmentionable anatomical parts.

I can't use first gear on any of my pickups or travelalls unless I'm off road or pulling a trailer in an awkward spot, so I'm guessing you have to drive your scout the same way. Top speed in high range is about 6 mph in first gear, which really doesn't make it worth the extra shift in traffic. Zero to 20 in 15 seconds generates a whole lot of "finger traffic."

John Donnelly
08-07-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer


No offense, but the old saw about IH using what was lying around gets overused ;) While no doubt there have been production 'anomalies' over the years, I'm sure they are minor. After all, they would be limited to what a line worker or team had available to them on a *moving* assembly line. To have a major component like a transmission get swapped in would require a lot more effort than that. Trucks were built according to the line set, and parts were delivered to the line according to the line set. Any change to a line set once it was cut would require the involvement of a fair # of folks, and is not likely to have gone un-recorded for a number of reasons. That's why Tom understandably wants a line set as proof.

No one's even found an IH property code for a T-18 wide, so how would such a unit have even gotten purchased, much less made it to the line? If a fleet customer had *really* wanted a T-18 wide in some Scouts, that's a possibility, but the whole order would have gone through Engineering, document control and purchasing at a minimum, so it's unlikely that they would have missed documenting the usage. To get management approval for a special order tranny in a Scout would have required a pretty sizable order(like military). You would think that there would be better(as in more out there) evidence by now. Looks like the trail's pretty cold on this one :eek:

I agree with Jim 100%.

The sturm und drang about "IH used whatever everybody else didn't, and grabbed parts out of GM's garbage bins" is a utter hogwash.

I work on enough IH's to see that production consistency was better than many, especially over a number of years. 76' to 79' Scouts would be a good example to use. Everything is always in the same place, and easy to find, provided the owner kept the rig in good shape.

Wiring, cables, grounds. I find them always in the right places, and never have had to hunt. And the product in the rigs is always by the same manufacturer on the stuff that lasts a long time like speedo cables and such.

Working in manufacturing, I can attest to how quickly the line could get ground to a halt by some "one-off" part being added to the mix.

IH's engineers were cut from the same cloth as the ones that worked for GM, or F**D, or whoever. They all went to the same schools, learned the same manufacturing processes, metallurgy, and math.

The "IH used whatever" thing is truly one of the automotive urban legends. :rolleyes:

Keep on Binderin',

John

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 04:06 PM
FWIW, I remember several years ago of hearing stories of more than a few Californians (and others, I'm sure) adapting wide T98s from the trucks for use in their Scouts, since wide T19s were (apparently) hard to come by.

Gary Seldano of Scouts West comes to mind (right?).. I'm sure others copied the idea, or came up with it on their own.. but that may go to explain a few 'odd-ball' transmission hybrids.

BTW, if wide T19s are going for $500.. I have a few for sale. :D

(3 loose wide T19s, two loose close T19, soon to be one loose wide T98 when the 5spd goes in..)

I have two 3spds, too.. way less than $500 would take them away. :D

Damian Grihalva
08-07-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Tom Mandera
A 4:1 T18 sure feels WIDE to folks that are used to driving something sportier - like a Porche 914, or a Honda Civic..

Well I'm not going by how you *feel* Tom :p :D

I mark the splines and twist them, there is no mistake that way. It was 6.xx right out of the Scout 80, and its 6.xx after putting the ford gears in it. The guy who built it for me said it was 6.36:1 first.

This one, and the 3-4 others I've see and touched and *felt* all were wide boxes.

Damian Grihalva
08-07-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer
.....but the old saw about IH using what was lying around gets overused ;)

If a fleet customer had *really* wanted a T-18 wide in some Scouts, that's a possibility, but the whole order would have gone through Engineering, document control and purchasing at a minimum, so it's unlikely that they would have missed documenting the usage. To get management approval for a special order tranny in a Scout would have required a pretty sizable order(like military).

This is my personal train of thought about this mysterious T98 of mine. I honestly think someone special ordered it. Now I don't claim to know why its not documented, but it came out of a completely STOCK rig. So......your guess is as good as mine.

Speaking of which. I'll be picking it up from the muffler shop, there is a stamped number on the driver side of the case, (not the cover). I'll have to get that number for all your die-hards.

:confused: :D :confused: :D

grannygear
08-07-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Allan E


I don't know, either, but it could be:

A T18 from a scout, with wide gears from another vehicle, such as a jeep or ford.
A T98 with a D20 from a J truck that had the input shaft swapped to the IH front shaft.
Some other combination of swapped in parts that I didn't think of.

I would certainly like to see a line set ticket on it to see what the original setup was.

How did you clock it? I can think of a way to do it, but it would be a major pain in the unmentionable anatomical parts.

I can't use first gear on any of my pickups or travelalls unless I'm off road or pulling a trailer in an awkward spot, so I'm guessing you have to drive your scout the same way. Top speed in high range is about 6 mph in first gear, which really doesn't make it worth the extra shift in traffic. Zero to 20 in 15 seconds generates a whole lot of "finger traffic."

Anything is possible with this truck...but knowing the mechanical and engineering level of the POs, I would be surprised if they did anything quite that tricky. Really hacks at best. A tranny/gear swap would be waaaayy out of their range. No way of knowing though.

As far as 'clocking it' perhaps the term is not the most correct. I did not mean I rotated the position of the tranny in relation to the engine, etc (as in 'clocking' a D300), rather I turned the input shaft with the tranny in first and counted the revolutions of the output. Definitely 6.XX:1.

harleykeith2003
08-07-2003, 04:45 PM
my tranny is marked t18 a on the case and t98 on the shift cover or top plate whichever you call it--------- so what gear ratio does this have and what would it have came out of-------- I pulled it out of a 70 v8 800

Thanks Harleykeith

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by harleykeith2003
my tranny is marked t18 a on the case and t98 on the shift cover or top plate whichever you call it--------- so what gear ratio does this have and what would it have came out of-------- I pulled it out of a 70 v8 800

Thanks Harleykeith

Best of my knowledge it's probably a close-ratio (4:1 1st) T18 from a 1970 V8 800... with the T98 top-cover.

Say.. anyone have a T18 with a T18 top cover?

Or is "T98-XXX" just the *IH* part number for a tranny cover? :D

Supremebeholder
08-07-2003, 05:02 PM
I respectfully disagree. He said he didn't believe IH installed one at the factory. The quote about the sportier cars is in a different paragraph. I simply interpret it as two different statements.

I guess I read it differently. I read it as Tom telling him that his 4-1 first gear seems wide when compared to a Porsche. That implies that Tom thinks Damian has a 4-1 first and not a wide transmission.

Here's the problem. Nobody will ever be 100% certain on if they had wide t-18's in early scouts, unless you were able to go back to the factory and watch every scout being built, right? So, you really don't know for sure that they didn't use a few wide boxes and I don't know for sure that they did. But, there is always a possibility, no matter how remote, that they did put at least one wide t-18 in an early scout.

Supremebeholder
08-07-2003, 05:08 PM
The sturm und drang about "IH used whatever everybody else didn't, and grabbed parts out of GM's garbage bins" is a utter hogwash.

I said nothing of the sort. I said "I find it hard to believe that 2 people who know IH so well will make such a broad statement like IH never used a wide t-18. You guys know better than I do that IH did a lot of custom work and even building things with what they had laying around. IH had a lot of anomalies when it came to the parts they used.".

I never said that they took other peoples trash or left over parts. I said that they used what they had laying around if they ran out of some part. IH did a lot of build to order kind of work and the dealerships did even more customizing for the customer.

Tom Mandera
08-07-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Supremebeholder


I guess I read it differently. I read it as Tom telling him that his 4-1 first gear seems wide when compared to a Porsche. That implies that Tom thinks Damian has a 4-1 first and not a wide transmission.


That was a sly joke at Damian.. knowing he used to be into 914s. :D

But I wanted to apply the example more broadly to the countless other people with a "for sure, it's a wide box" close T18. ;)


Here's the problem. Nobody will ever be 100% certain on if they had wide t-18's in early scouts, unless you were able to go back to the factory and watch every scout being built, right? So, you really don't know for sure that they didn't use a few wide boxes and I don't know for sure that they did. But, there is always a possibility, no matter how remote, that they did put at least one wide t-18 in an early scout.

I used to think the fold-down windshield went out with the Scout 80.. until I had a fold-down 71 800B in my presence.. best we can figure they were awfully rare, but were a custom-orderable part.

I believe there's DOCUMENTATION to back that up. It's not that they had a few Scout 80 windscreens lying around from 1965 and since the Scout II was coming out, they figured they'd better use up the old style stuff on the 71 800Bs..

If IH put it in, there's documentation.

Why hasn't anyone come forth swearing they have an IH close-ratio T98?

I have an 800 with a 200cid Ford 6cyl in it. IH MIGHT have had a 200cid Ford lying around that Friday, or someone might've special ordered it.. but I don't have any documentation to support that, so I'm going to continue to assume some redneck thought it'd be an improvement to jerk out the 196 and put in the 200-6 from a Falcon..

Similarly, my '72 Scout II, 3rd owner, has a synco-1st 3spd in it. That shouldn't have happened in 1972. It didn't. Lineset says T-90, and I drove it with the T90.. but my buddy fragged that T90 before I bought it.. it has a 1979 T-15 3spd..

...but this Scout is stock. Manual steer, 4-wheel drums, D30 front, shot spring bushings, factory floor mat, Deluxe interior seats, 120mph speedo, 304, 3spd.. stock.

Except for that swapped in late-model 3spd, of course. But nothing else deviates from how it left the factory.

If I didn't know any better, I would've sworn the 3spd (T15) came in it in 1972..

John Donnelly
08-07-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Supremebeholder


I said nothing of the sort. I said "I find it hard to believe that 2 people who know IH so well will make such a broad statement like IH never used a wide t-18. You guys know better than I do that IH did a lot of custom work and even building things with what they had laying around. IH had a lot of anomalies when it came to the parts they used.".

I never said that they took other peoples trash or left over parts. I said that they used what they had laying around if they ran out of some part. IH did a lot of build to order kind of work and the dealerships did even more customizing for the customer.

And Jacob, I didn't use you in the preface of the statement either.

I was agreeing with Jim Grammer about the "urban legend" of IH parts procurement.

You read into it farther than needed, and I wasn't picking a fight, just stating my opinion and view of the subject of the "urban legend".

Binderin',

John

Damian Grihalva
08-08-2003, 05:52 AM
I think everyone has a point. But lets admit it, IH used what they had on the floor. From what I *know* thats why they put 196's in Scout IIs in the late 70's. They knew the end was near, and said: "what are we going to do with these 4-bangers? ~ I know, lets stick them in some Scouts!"

Oh well. I don't think getting all hot and bothered by a freaking mystery trans is worth it. Perhaps its really that puzzling....I try not to get into it that much (i.e. tracking down lineset numbers and the whole history/production style of IH). Allen and Tom *could* be right (who-da-thought!!)... ;) :p ;) :)

I do have a thought; When I got the T98 from Keck (by way of *RedNeck*) he gave me the bellhousing as well. This bellhousing is extremely short (for the short shaft) bolts right to the 152/196 and ONLY has holes for a 4-speed (i.e. no holes for a T90aa). I'm not trying to spark a heated debate over this, but *IF* IH never put a 4-speed in a Scout 80, as claimed, what's with this bellhousing?

(speaking of which, I take pictures like a freaking Japanese tourist, so I found some pictures of it, just before we installed it into Snoopy. Here they are, in fact, they are part of Snoopy's buildup and you can find the writeup on 'Day 30')
http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d30_d.jpg http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d30_e.jpg

Tom Mandera
08-08-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
I think everyone has a point. But lets admit it, IH used what they had on the floor. From what I *know* thats why they put 196's in Scout IIs in the late 70's. They knew the end was near, and said: "what are we going to do with these 4-bangers? ~ I know, lets stick them in some Scouts!"


I thought that was the Diesel.. why did something like half of the 1980s get the diesel? Because the end was near, and they had no use for the extra diesels...


This bellhousing is extremely short (for the short shaft) bolts right to the 152/196 and ONLY has holes for a 4-speed (i.e. no holes for a T90aa). I'm not trying to spark a heated debate over this, but *IF* IH never put a 4-speed in a Scout 80, as claimed, what's with this bellhousing?


My guess.. the bell is from a 4cyl Scout *800*.. which did come with a 4spd. :D

Allan E
08-08-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by snoopy

Oh well. I don't think getting all hot and bothered by a freaking mystery trans is worth it. Perhaps its really that puzzling....I try not to get into it that much (i.e. tracking down lineset numbers and the whole history/production style of IH). Allen and Tom *could* be right (who-da-thought!!)... ;) :p ;) :)


The point here is that this is all a matter of record already. Scout 80s had T90 transmissions. They had Spicer 18 t-cases until 65, when the switch was made to Dana 20. Some had OD. Some had turbochargers starting in 64.

Originally posted by snoopy

I do have a thought; When I got the T98 from Keck (by way of *RedNeck*) he gave me the bellhousing as well. This bellhousing is extremely short (for the short shaft) bolts right to the 152/196 and ONLY has holes for a 4-speed (i.e. no holes for a T90aa). I'm not trying to spark a heated debate over this, but *IF* IH never put a 4-speed in a Scout 80, as claimed, what's with this bellhousing?


You own a scout specialty shop and don't know the differences between scout 80s and scout 800s?

Hint: That's the primary difference. DRIVE TRAIN CHANGES. Not just the axle changes. The rear axle upgrade to D44 from optional to standard was also important, but the primary change was the 4 speed option, and in mid 67, the 266 V8.

You also negelcted to mention that somebody had swapped in a ford set of gears into snoopy on your first post, and the way I read it was that you were claiming it was an original transmission from a scout 80. Later, you mention that you had a specialist change out the gearset.

The pictures show a short input shaft bell housing, which was not used at all on the V8 equipped scouts. Nobody has ever questioned whether such a setup existed. It's your claim as to its origins that is in dispute.

It's really not that puzzling at all.

Jim Grammer
08-08-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
I think everyone has a point. But lets admit it, IH used what they had on the floor. From what I *know* thats why they put 196's in Scout IIs in the late 70's. They knew the end was near, and said: "what are we going to do with these 4-bangers? ~ I know, lets stick them in some Scouts!"

Gotta disagree. Remember the Arab oil embargo? How about CAFE?

IH was attempting to market a more fuel efficient light truck 'cause they thought it would sell, and after '75 the legislation was in place and the handwriting was on the wall. Indianapolis *certainly* didn't build out engines years in advance, more like a couple months. Supply chains of successful maufacturers just don't keep giant forward quantities of components in the pipe, it's too expensive.

As has been very well documented by Mr. Glancy and others, the decision to pull the plug on Scout production was made *very* late in the game. They sure wouldn't have dropped the $$ on development of the SSV, SIII, and the Chrylser slant 6 otherwise!

More urban legend, so don't be surprised if some of us are eager to dispel them. :D

David Lang
08-08-2003, 11:59 AM
the other reason for trying to build 'fuel efficiant' trucks was the beginnings of the federal regulations about average fuel consumption for all vehiles build.

the other car/truck manufacturers could build trucks that were fuel hogs and cars taht weren't and meet these requirements.

IH only had the scouts to work with so they had to make the average of all the scouts be under some limit.

the diesels helped a lot here, but they also put the small gas engines in the trucks to get the average milage up so that they could continue shipping the 392's in some trucks

grannygear
08-08-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by grannygear
I have a 4spd in my 800 V8 (67) that has a swapped in 345 with a front sump pan. The tranny behind it has a cover on it that is badged T-98 (so that makes it a T-18?) and has no reverse light switch on it or any provision for one.

It is a married case 4wd with a twin stick D20 behind it.

It is a 6.something - 1 1st gear (I clocked it)

It has the reverse on the correct spot for a T18 according to the web site FAQs.

So...what do I have? I don't know, but I like it.

Update: I looked at the casting on the tranny case and it seems it is a T98. So it looks like someone dropped a truck 345/T98/D20 in my 800. Yes??? I got the good tranny out of it, but the wrong oil pan! Oh well. Interesting thread. Good fun to read the banter (er...I mean opinions) going back and forth.

Damian Grihalva
08-08-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Allan E
You own a scout specialty shop and don't know the differences between scout 80s and scout 800s?
Ya sure I know, they both need Scout II Dana44 swaps, just one needs it more than the other! :D :cool: :D :cool: :p ;) :)

In all honesty, what about DEALER INSTALLED OPTIONS?!?!? I could totally see a customer or two wanting a granny low for pulling a cabin or something...

Baradium
08-09-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by snoopy

Ya sure I know, they both need Scout II Dana44 swaps, just one needs it more than the other! :D :cool: :D :cool: :p ;) :)

In all honesty, what about DEALER INSTALLED OPTIONS?!?!? I could totally see a customer or two wanting a granny low for pulling a cabin or something...

That would have required not just getting another IH part, but getting a part that IH didn't even use (mated t-case T98). And that's not something that a shope can easily get... Have you checked the side of the tranny yet? Also, an 80 wasn't designed for that duty anyways...


Grannygear: Is it a mated t-case?


Tom M: What type of hard top did it use? It'd be easy to tell if the windshield frame was swapped from an 80 (which, btw, you didn't mention whether you knew it was originally like that) by how the top mounted on. Although that still wouldn't confirm it wasn't from an early 800 and just swapped.


However, you can get the line set for *any* of these vehicles and see what they came with. It's just $10... it will tell you what came with it from IH. Anything after that is open, but the lineset is what IH gave it. A dealer *could* have done something, but that doesn't mean that it was IH doing it, or that you could just go out and ask for it.

grannygear
08-10-2003, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Baradium
Grannygear: Is it a mated t-case?

Yes.

Matt O'Bryan
08-10-2003, 04:47 PM
While I don't take the view that IH was dumpster diving during the 70's, I can understand the statement that "IH used what they had." even to include running changes on the production floor. Like any large company, IH plants keeped a limited supply of each subassemblies on hand, and Mr. Murphy doesn't care who you are.

Take the following hypothetical situation.

April 1, 1971. Light Line Assembly Line.

Problem: Demand is unusually heavy for T-98's, the on hand stock is low, and the manager in charge just got news that the 18-wheeler full of tranny's will be a day late.

Solution: shuffle production orders and start putting T-3X trannies in, in lieu of the T-98.
All the tooling and parts are there, it requires no huge stop the presses effort, but they used what they had.

Jim Grammer
08-11-2003, 12:50 PM
Now we're talking Springfield. That scenario is easy to imagine, I've been in manufacturing quite a while ;)

Gotta remember tho', most of the stuff at Springfield is customer order. Anybody ever seen a line set with a TSPC in the 'customer' field? I haven't that I can recall. The customer order may have been a Gold Key for dealer stock, but that dealer is still expecting to get what they ordered.

If I'm the line manager in this situation, I start re-arranging the production order of the line sets that are already cut. Autos and any other non-T98 trucks move to the front of the class, shouldn't be any sweat to cover a couple days production that way.

Also curious, has anybody ever seen a non-Scout line set with the 'prototype' designation like the early built-on-spec Scout 80's?

immature_gus
08-12-2003, 09:54 PM
Hey all. First wanted to thank all of you for some interesting reading. And I hate to throw fuel on the fire but... I have a service manual for my 1965 model 80. I got this from binder books. I believe the book number is cts-2302 this is for model 80, 800, 800A, 800B. Anyway in the transmission section it shows a four speed synchromesh. This is what it has on the top of the first page.

IH model IH code
T-44 13044
T-45 13045
T-418 13418
T-419 13419
T-445 13445

This book also says to find the unit serial number its on the machined surface left rear top of case. Dont know if this helps any but if this book has a section for a 4 speed. Im going to believe that there was such a beast in 1965. Later Erik

Allan E
08-12-2003, 10:19 PM
The listing if for all fo the transmissions available for all of the models. You can believe, or infer, anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. The model 80 had a 3 speed and an optional overdrive.

Look in the engine section. You will find 152, 266, 304, and whatever their designation for the AMC 232 was at that point, for example, but the 266 wasn't available until 67, and the 304 until 69.

Do they actually "mention" that detail? If they don't, does that mean that the V8 was available in 65? It wasn't. Was the 304 available in 67, since it's in the book? Sorry, but not on scouts, only on the larger vehicles.

You have a book that covers more than one model. That does not mean all the options were available for all the models.

I live in Prescott Valley. If you find a line set ticket for a scout 80 that shows a 4 speed, you let me know, and I'll buy you a case of tasty beverages. The change made in 65 was the switch to the D20 transfer case.

Damian Grihalva
08-13-2003, 09:13 AM
Ok, here are the numbers on the Transmission in Snoopy.

This one is on the cover
T98-148H

These markings are on the Driver side of the case about 2" under cover:
1st line: T18-1B
2nd line: WG DIV

My biggest arguement is that IF this trans didn't come in a Scout:
Why is there a perfect NON MODIFIED bellhousing to hook up with a 196 ~ and that's WITH an offset to match the tilt of the 4-banger.

Tom Mandera
08-13-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
Ok, here are the numbers on the Transmission in Snoopy.

This one is on the cover
T98-148H

These markings are on the Driver side of the case about 2" under cover:
1st line: T18-1B
2nd line: WG DIV

My biggest arguement is that IF this trans didn't come in a Scout:
Why is there a perfect NON MODIFIED bellhousing to hook up with a 196 ~ and that's WITH an offset to match the tilt of the 4-banger.

*IF* I wanted to build a modified transmission to put in a 4cyl Scout 80/800... I'd make sure I could use the off-the-shelf bellhousing to keep things simple.

Why recreate the wheel?

Here's what I've turned up on the T18-1B..


The T18 B is a long shaft 6.32 ratio FSJ transmission.
J2000
the stamp on the side is t18-b, on the top the stamp reads t18-148d. (for the guy I found talking about it)


Also another guy talking about a T18-1B..

This tranny has a LONG adapter and
bellhousing, but seems to be in good shape.

But then I find...

also the ones ive seen with "1B" on them were usually 4:1 first gear, and not the granny 6:1


The T-18A version used from 1977-1979 is the best transmission ever put in a CJ by the factory since it features a granny low first gear(6:32:1.) Earlier T-18s have the same great strength, but a 4.03:1 first.

T-18 4.02 2.41 1.41 1.00 4.73
T-18A 6.32 3.09 1.69 1.00 7.44



(OK, so where does the B fit in?)

Jim Grammer
08-13-2003, 10:49 AM
And....wonder what the input shaft stickout/spline count is on the Heep unit? Wouldn't it be convenient if it matched the 80/800 4 cyl? ;)

jeff campbell
08-13-2003, 10:51 AM
try barney & white trans parts,// columbus,ohio!--jeff

Damian Grihalva
08-13-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Tom Mandera
(OK, so where does the B fit in?)

The world may never know.

harleykeith2003
08-14-2003, 10:10 PM
I have a T18 A and it is only a 4 to 1 first gear so I guess nothing is as it is supposed to be by the books thanks harleykeith

William
08-18-2003, 05:15 AM
I talked to a guy that owned an International dealership and sold Scouts and he told me that if a costumer had wanted square wheels they would have put square wheels on the Scout for the costumer. That, of course, is an exageration but ordering a special trany from a manufacturer and then installing it into a Scout for a costumer doesn't sound too far feched to me. Anything done to an International at the dealership would not be shown on a line set ticket. I guess the question is, would it still be considered "stock".

Allan E
08-18-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by William
I talked to a guy that owned an International dealership and sold Scouts and he told me that if a costumer had wanted square wheels they would have put square wheels on the Scout for the costumer. That, of course, is an exageration but ordering a special trany from a manufacturer and then installing it into a Scout for a costumer doesn't sound too far feched to me. Anything done to an International at the dealership would not be shown on a line set ticket. I guess the question is, would it still be considered "stock".

William-

Although I have no doubt that what you say is true, a "few" transmissions "may" have been changed in this manner. However, there is quite a bit of work involved, and the point is, it's not stock, and it's surely not common.

Changing gearsets in a T18 would be one thing. Even the possibility of changing the input shaft on a jeep style T98 "could" have happened in a scout 800 or scout II. However, the 4 speeds were not made by Borg Warner for the IH setup until the 800 was in production, so there would have been nothing to order. Nothing would have been machined to take the bell housing. There would have been no input shafts available. There's a great big question of even "how" it would have been done to a scout 80, since the required parts hadn't been made yet. Whether it really "was" done to any scout 800s or scout II models at any dealerships is, in my mind, still a far cry from whether somebody "would or could" have. The cost at a dealership for such a conversion would have probably run into a very large percentage of an already expensive vehicle.

jeff campbell
08-18-2003, 09:15 AM
hey guy's,ihave a '73-1200,2wd,t'lette,392,4-speed! the reverse is over to the rite & down,anyone know which 1 it is??thanks--jeff

jeff campbell
08-18-2003, 09:27 AM
anybody having trouble gettin on old tech talk?--jeff

Allan E
08-18-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by jeff campbell
hey guy's,ihave a '73-1200,2wd,t'lette,392,4-speed! the reverse is over to the rite & down,anyone know which 1 it is??thanks--jeff

Yeah, sure you do, Jeff. The late 71 through 73 model is 1210. The transmission is a T19. Apparently they came in wide and close ratios in scouts and pickups and travelalls, although I've never seen a close in a travelall or pickup. My guess is that a 3/4 ton truck would have a wide. I have that transmission in my wife's 66 travelall. Since we bought it from the original owner, does that make it stock? ;)

I'm having trouble getting the pages to load from binderbulletin. It's just really slow for me, but it's working.

jeff campbell
08-18-2003, 09:58 AM
thanks much allan,i think it may be a wide!???i still can't get on the old tt!???just wondering!--jeff

William
08-18-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Allan E

Changing gearsets in a T18 would be one thing. Even the possibility of changing the input shaft on a jeep style T98 "could" have happened in a scout 800 or scout II. However, the 4 speeds were not made by Borg Warner for the IH setup until the 800 was in production, so there would have been nothing to order. Nothing would have been machined to take the bell housing. There would have been no input shafts available. There's a great big question of even "how" it would have been done to a scout 80, since the required parts hadn't been made yet. Whether it really "was" done to any scout 800s or scout II models at any dealerships is, in my mind, still a far cry from whether somebody "would or could" have. The cost at a dealership for such a conversion would have probably run into a very large percentage of an already expensive vehicle.
Well I guess is there was no way to even put one together at that date then then there was no way it was done. And I agree, If it wasn't an option to order it that way and it wasn't a dealer option then it wasn't stock. I have heard that, in the '50s, if you wanted a 4X4 pickup and you couldn't order it that way from the manufacture, the dealership would send a 2X pickup to a company and they would convert it to 4X4. Would that be considered "stock"? Since the company that put there name on the truck didn't do the work, I would say it wasn't "stock". Just my opinion.

Allan E
08-18-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by William

Well I guess is there was no way to even put one together at that date then then there was no way it was done. And I agree, If it wasn't an option to order it that way and it wasn't a dealer option then it wasn't stock. I have heard that, in the '50s, if you wanted a 4X4 pickup and you couldn't order it that way from the manufacture, the dealership would send a 2X pickup to a company and they would convert it to 4X4. Would that be considered "stock"? Since the company that put there name on the truck didn't do the work, I would say it wasn't "stock". Just my opinion.

I don't know about ford or chevy. I do know that dodge power wagons were available in the 50s from the factory because I knew a guy who had a 54, and there are groups similar to this one that cater to those vehicles. Anybody else, I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised.

The IH pickups and travelalls had 4x4 as a listed "stock" option starting in 56 with the S120 (3/4 ton) models. It was another 5 or 6 years before the half ton (110) models got 4x4, either in the C100 series or the C1000 series, I'm not sure. Prior to that, conversions were available, and the larger trucks came with 4x4 from the factory. I don't know whether the special order trucks were modified at the factory or after they left, though. With IH, there easily could have been a fleet of 4x4 pickups or travelalls ordered any time after 1950 and it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

As far as chevy goes, all I've ever actually seen was conversions prior to about 63, and mostly on panel trucks (carryalls) rather than pickups. Although it would not surprise me to know 4x4 was an option on chevy pickups much earlier than that, I simply don't know. I have seen 4x4 ford pickups from the 60s, but all of the 50s pickups I have seen that were 4wd were converted as well. Same thing. I just plain don't know, other than IH.

Jim Grammer
08-18-2003, 04:28 PM
Actually the R series got some factory 4x4's, the R-140 and right at the end the R-120. The 140 just barely snuck by as a 'light' truck, but you could get one with a pickup bed ;) IIRC the 1/2 ton C1100 was intro'd in '63.

Baradium
08-18-2003, 06:02 PM
50's chevys could be had factory 4x4... at least they were advertised. however, chevy took the opposite tack from IH, 3/4 ton was the heaviest 4x4 until the mid-late 70's.

RedScout72
09-16-2003, 03:49 PM
I read this whole thread and I'm a little confused. If i have a close ratio t-19 or t-18 for my scout can i swap out wide ratio gears from another tranny (t98,18,19 etc.) into my 4wd case?

John Donnelly
09-16-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer
Actually the R series got some factory 4x4's, the R-140 and right at the end the R-120. The 140 just barely snuck by as a 'light' truck, but you could get one with a pickup bed ;) IIRC the 1/2 ton C1100 was intro'd in '63.

"T-Ruxx" in IHSTO has a 54' R-120 Factory 4x4 Pickup that he is restoring. Currently driving in primer as of now. :D

So there is at least one that we know of that is a regular poster to the BB. :)

Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
09-16-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Baradium
50's chevys could be had factory 4x4... at least they were advertised. however, chevy took the opposite tack from IH, 3/4 ton was the heaviest 4x4 until the mid-late 70's.

Ryan, that isn' necessarily correct.

Chebbie and Dorf used COLEMAN, and NAPCO for their 50's 4x4 stuff. They didn't build it themselves at that time, the chassis were sent to those two companies for 4x4 conversion.

So, it was "factory" but not at the same time.

Allan is correct, Dodge and IHC had factory stuff in the 50's, in fact I was at Binder Books the other day, and saw some old non-military Dodge Power Wagon stuff from 49' :eek:

So I would say that Dodge beat us all to the punch.

Just pointing out a couple of things I thought needed mention.

Binderin',

John

RedScout72
09-16-2003, 04:46 PM
Come on John answer my question first. This thread was a month old and i brought it back and you answered somebody else's thread?:D

John Donnelly
09-16-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by RedScout72
Come on John answer my question first. This thread was a month old and i brought it back and you answered somebody else's thread?:D

uhhh.... oops. :D

T-19 gears can be swapped from case to case, so.....

If you had T-19 wide gears from a 2WD transmission, you could put them in a 4WD case. On this forum, I consider TORC to be the guy who knows more about it than anyone.

AFAIK, you cannot swap T-18 gears into a T-19. That is an "apples and oranges" thing. T-19's are fully synchronized, T-18's aren't, and bearing sizes between models are different, just to name a couple of things off the top of my head.

Some of the discussion here leads toward belief that T-98 stuff could be put in a T-18 case, but I don't think anyone here knows that for sure.

YMMV,

John

RedScout72
09-16-2003, 05:54 PM
Thanks John, that's exactly what i wanted to know.

Dave Nuenke
09-16-2003, 11:30 PM
Ok, my views on a bunch of the issues discussed here. First off to Damian, we (or at least I) don't dispute that your tranny and bellhousing came from a Scout, just that they came from an 800 vs an 80. I have a close ratio, short shaft 4 speed with the tilted 4 cyl bellhousing sitting on my porch. I pulled it from a 65 800 parts truck that I had. It's going into my '61 80, it will fit fine, but that won't make it stock..... Next Allan has it right as far as what trannys were actually offered in what vehicles and when. I do happen to have one of those mythical close 4 speeds in Warhorse (my Wagonmaster). It was swapped in by the PO along with the transfer case and driving front end. The whole setup was pulled off of a wrecked '74 T'all about 25 years ago, hence why I have "stock" front discs on a '73 1210. I know the whole story, but to many other people it would be a mystery, or a "special offering". If you pulled my line ticket it would show that my truck originally came 2wd with drum brakes at all corners. Next, for all around road use, and for towing the close ratio tranny is much better IMHO. I have driven just about everything, close 19, wide 19, close 18, wide 98, 3 speed, I haven't gotten the 5 speed picked up yet, but I have driven a couple of those in larger trucks. The wideboxes have their place, but I wouldn't look specially for one unless i was doing on overdrive on a diesel (the ratios split better), or was building a hard core wheeling rig. For many general use applications, the wide box works fine, I have a bunch of them, but a close box will usually work a bit better unless you have a real need for the granny gear. And finally just to shock everyone, when I have to put a clutch into my gas 1980 I'm going to replace the wide t-19 with a t18, why becase the 18 is handy and I prefer those ratios better.

Dave

RedScout72
09-17-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Dave Nuenke
And finally just to shock everyone, when I have to put a clutch into my gas 1980 I'm going to replace the wide t-19 with a t18, why becase the 18 is handy and I prefer those ratios better.

Dave

Thats fine with me Dave, as long as you cut me a good deal on the t19 wide...:D

ChiScouter
02-26-2004, 08:34 PM
Bringing this thread back from the dead. I just found a 80 or 800. It has a 4 cyl 4 sp and 2 stick dana 20. Trans is marked T18-1B on the side. By looking the rig over it is clear that this rig was owned by a talanted fabricator at one time and has been heavily modified. This thread is the only place I have seen T18-1B in a search. Does anyone have any more info on if this trans is stock, and the 1st gear ratio?

Dan Phariss
02-26-2004, 09:01 PM
I do have a thought; When I got the T98 from Keck (by way of *RedNeck*) he gave me the bellhousing as well. This bellhousing is extremely short (for the short shaft) bolts right to the 152/196 and ONLY has holes for a 4-speed (i.e. no holes for a T90aa). I'm not trying to spark a heated debate over this, but *IF* IH never put a 4-speed in a Scout 80, as claimed, what's with this bellhousing?



IH used the I-4s in pickups (900s) as well so the bellhousing is not proof they used 4 speeds in Scouts. However, it would allow someone to install a 4 speed in a Scout if they wanted to go to the trouble.

Dan

Dan Phariss
02-26-2004, 09:13 PM
Yeah, sure you do, Jeff. The late 71 through 73 model is 1210. The transmission is a T19. Apparently they came in wide and close ratios in scouts and pickups and travelalls, although I've never seen a close in a travelall or pickup. My guess is that a 3/4 ton truck would have a wide. I have that transmission in my wife's 66 travelall. Since we bought it from the original owner, does that make it stock? ;)

I'm having trouble getting the pages to load from binderbulletin. It's just really slow for me, but it's working.

My 75 200 4x4 came with a 304A and a T428 (T-19A). Was a US Dept of Ag truck.
The close is a ****ty tranny for a 3/4 pickup with 3.54 gears but its on the lineset. Came with those useless small diameter 800x16.5 tires too.

The 74 200 4x4 came with a 392 & T427 (T-19).
Dan

NVScouter
04-16-2004, 12:36 PM
Resurecting this one due to some new evidence.

Damian "Snoopy..or artist formerly known as snoopy now?" could have gotten a T-18 (4speed) out of a Scout 80.

How do I know? I bought a 1966 Scout 80..not 800! 1966 was the changeover year and this one I have has the T-18 behind the 152, and the 80 body. This rig is bone stock as I bought it from the original owner.

So if Damien got a 4speed from a 80 its possible its from one late 65-66.

I brought this back from researching since my T-18 and 1966 80 body are now for sale.

Tom Mandera
04-16-2004, 01:27 PM
How do I know? I bought a 1966 Scout 80..not 800! 1966 was the changeover year and this one I have has the T-18 behind the 152, and the 80 body. This rig is bone stock as I bought it from the original owner.

So if Damien got a 4speed from a 80 its possible its from one late 65-66.



That's interesting. I wasn't aware the T18 was an option in the 80. You have an offset rear diff, too, right with a Dana 18?

But the real question was whether the T18 was a close ratio (4:1) or wide ratio (6.32:1), and simply "having" one isn't the same as having one and having a Lineset (buildsheet) calling out a wide-box T18.

IIRC, IH didn't even have a part number for the wide-box T18.

Similarly, I don't think you'll ever find a factory "mid-ratio" 5:1 T19 in a later Scout or pickup.. but Ford used them.

Mark Pietz
04-16-2004, 03:26 PM
Interesting debate. All I can testify to all this about 4 speeds never being in Scout 80s is.....don't be so sure. Here's a tale, and it seems that at least two of them were so equipped.

The very first Scout I ever drove was owned by a family friend who had a 1963 or 1964 model 80, positively not newer than that (I recall taking a photo of it in the late spring of 1964). It had the 152 four-banger, and a four-speed with a non-synchro first gear. Whether a T-98 or T-18, who knows. I do know that a few years later I got my driver's license about the same time he got tired of that four-banger and swapped in a 289 Ford V-8 - it needed some sort of adapter between that engine and the tranny to pull this off, which was available at that time from an aftermarket source. That vehicle would come off the line quite nicely in second. Coming off in first and punching it, well, it was a short, neck-snapping gear.

This was forty years ago, and when one considers that IH built basically custom vehicles, in a sense, then never say never.

NVScouter
04-18-2004, 12:32 PM
Not sure about the offset no rear axel when I got it. I'm pulling the tranny today since I have a few people interested in it. So I'll look N post.

Your right the real debate is close VS wide ratio. Anyway I can tell without disasembly or maybe just pulling an access pannel?

I cant do anything with trannys yet I have a guy that builds em for me so write all instructions in crayon plz big block letters :D

This may be worse than talking carbs to me :D Look for that post later this week.

Tom Mandera
04-18-2004, 10:01 PM
Not sure about the offset no rear axel when I got it. I'm pulling the tranny today since I have a few people interested in it. So I'll look N post.

Your right the real debate is close VS wide ratio. Anyway I can tell without disasembly or maybe just pulling an access pannel?

I cant do anything with trannys yet I have a guy that builds em for me so write all instructions in crayon plz big block letters :D

This may be worse than talking carbs to me :D Look for that post later this week.

Easy, once it's out.

Stick it in 1st gear, or reverse. 1st is forward to the left, R is to the right rear.

Spin the input shaft (side that goes to the engine) and watch the output shaft (rear of tranny) spin.

Count the number of turns of the input shaft it takes to make one full turn of the output shaft.

4:1 it's a close ratio.

6.3:1 it's a wide box.