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John Donnelly
07-29-2003, 09:02 PM
This thread is intended to be a discussion group for the Inline-6 cylinder IHC engines used in IHC trucks.

This group will not be limited to gasoline engines but will include Gas, Propane, Diesel, whatever....

I will start.

I have a 67' Travelall with the BG241 Engine. I would like to start a database of part numbers for things like filters, nice to know information like electronic ignition conversions, possible performance upgrades, and the like.

It could be that this group will break new ground. :)

Keep on Binderin',

John

Mernjohn
07-29-2003, 10:10 PM
I have IHC Motor Truck Service Manual Section B for BD 282 and BD 308 plus Section G for D-301 Diesel and Section L for D-354 Diesel. This info includes engine specs, torque charts and complete overhaul instructions.

Will do lookups and within reason make copies. Will try to scan the whole works.

Have the same info on 4-152, 266, 304 and 345.

Note: My shop manual was purchased in 1965 when I bought my Travelall. It won't have any info on later revisions.

Mernjohn

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
07-29-2003, 11:05 PM
most of my experience with the inline 6 ihc engine was with the 281-282 engines, i used to maintain a fleet of hyster straddle trucks with IHC 240 engines in them, but parts were getting hard to get so i was converting them to the 281-282 the main difference in the 2 was the exhaust manifolds as the 282 had a 2 peice arrangement whereas the 281 had a 1 peice exhaust manifold, the problem with those was they cracked behind the exhaust flange. i sourced a set of headers for the 281 but they caused more problems than they solved, the result was the exhaust would scavange, then if you drove it at 60mph for any length of time the engine would boil even on the coldest of days. so obviously there was not enough fuel/air going into the engine to compensate for the headers. i beleive the solution for that would of been the use of the inlet manifold that was fitted as std to the 283 engine as fitted to the mk5 acco australian army trucks which were 4x4 and 6x6 used back in vietnam as they were fitted with dual carburettors but i never had the chance to see if it cured the problem.

the 281 was quite a torquey engine as my c1200 would pull close to 8000 lbs on quite a few occaisions - stopping it was another story! even though it was quite capable of acheiving 100mph.
apart from the exhaust manifold and a gear box concern i never had reason to lay a spanner on it, so it was super reliable. it also ran a dual fuel setup with gasoline and liquified petroleum gas - the best thing i can reccommend for the 281 is LPG, it improved it dramatically improving not only economy but also power and drivability.

Andy McElhaney
07-30-2003, 01:55 PM
Are we going to include the 232/258 AMC engines? I have been experimenting with intake manifolds, and would be willing to share my trials and tribulations.

Mernjohn
07-30-2003, 02:40 PM
I have scanned the IHC manual for these engines. The result is 58 pages in JPG format for a total of about 12 MB. Each page is an individual file. It seems a little large to post. Any suggestions on how to make it available?

Mernjohn

John Donnelly
07-30-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Mernjohn
I have scanned the IHC manual for these engines. The result is 58 pages in JPG format for a total of about 12 MB. Each page is an individual file. It seems a little large to post. Any suggestions on how to make it available?

Mernjohn

Ummm.... I don't think you can. :(

That is still proprietary information owned by Navistar.

If it is still available in re-print, you cannot supply it in any format. :(

I will inquire with BinderBooks, I have to stop there tomorrow anyway. If they say fine, then we can proceed. If not, then I guess we start posting pertinent data, handtyped.

Stuff like gaps, clearances, "neat to know" stuff. Just don't reproduce pages. :eek:

Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
07-30-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Andy McElhaney
Are we going to include the 232/258 AMC engines? I have been experimenting with intake manifolds, and would be willing to share my trials and tribulations.

Hmmm....

There is a LOT of information on the internet about those engines, perhaps if we stuck to the IHC portion of what was on the engine, I would have no objection.

AMC is well supported on the internet. Old IHC Sixers, not so much. OLDIHC.org is about the only site I know of with ANY info, and I find it lacking.

Keep on Binderin',

John

DougB
07-30-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly

Old IHC Sixers, not so much. OLDIHC.org is about the only site I know of with ANY info, and I find it lacking.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Exactly my thoughts and the reason I asked for this group to be started.

Thanks John

My IHC 6 is a BG 265. Its in a '66 Travelette c1200. This truck appears to have been used by the Air Force on a base in South Dakota. Has a 4 speed behind it. Not sure of model as I haven't even crawled under it yet. So my questions will be coming once I get my Scout work done and start on the travelette.

P. S.
If you didn't see it on the way to this Group Here is a link to
HEI conversion BD240 (http://broken-link/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7063)

Matt O'Bryan
07-30-2003, 07:06 PM
A question for the group:

On the BD/BG series, where is the block split between the 240/264/280/308 engines? They aren't all based on the same block, are they???

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
07-31-2003, 02:24 AM
i know the 240 is physically a lot smaller than the 281-282-283 series engines
:D

John Donnelly
07-31-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Matt O'Bryan
A question for the group:

On the BD/BG series, where is the block split between the 240/264/280/308 engines? They aren't all based on the same block, are they???

Not sure. Called Ernie Bisio with your question, he didn't know either.

He referred me to a guy who hasn't called back yet. :(

Do you think we could get Allan in here?

Binderin',

John

Goober
07-31-2003, 10:52 PM
Glad to see we this thread started. Maybe it will turn into a seperate frum in the future. I have a BD240 in my '58 A-120 and I also have the repair manuals for the 240 (as well as the rest of the truck). I'll be glad to share any info.

John Donnelly
08-01-2003, 07:54 AM
I have a Holley 1barrel carb on my BG241.

I was wondering if any of you have found better options in that department, as I am not a Holley carb fan. Of course if tuning the Holley for better performance is possible, I am all ears on that subject as well.

I would like to use a Rochester 2GC, or the like if making this Holley perform cannot be done. I can machine anything to make it fit, so that isn't an issue.

Binderin',

John

Andy McElhaney
08-01-2003, 01:07 PM
Okay, I guess I will take my morphodite truck and hide in the corner!!:)

John Donnelly
08-01-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Andy McElhaney
Okay, I guess I will take my morphodite truck and hide in the corner!!:)

Andy,

Don't hide in the durn corner......

Nobody objected, and perhaps I was a bit hasty.

Bring up whatever you wish, as long as it's an inline-6

Binderin',

John

Jim Grammer
08-01-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly
I have a Holley 1barrel carb on my BG241.

I was wondering if any of you have found better options in that department, as I am not a Holley carb fan. Of course if tuning the Holley for better performance is possible, I am all ears on that subject as well.

I would like to use a Rochester 2GC, or the like if making this Holley perform cannot be done. I can machine anything to make it fit, so that isn't an issue.

Binderin',

John

John, I'm not hip to the 2GC. The Holley 1904 pretty much is what it is AFAICT. Mark P. highly recommends checking out the Rochester Monojet as used on the Chubbi inline 6's, I dunno ;)

John Donnelly
08-02-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer


John, I'm not hip to the 2GC. The Holley 1904 pretty much is what it is AFAICT. Mark P. highly recommends checking out the Rochester Monojet as used on the Chubbi inline 6's, I dunno ;)

I would love to chop up a manifold, and put a brace of polished 1bbl carbs (3 to be exact) on this engine.

Chrome the valve cover and side cover(s), and give the engine a nice fresh coat of the correct color of IH paint (another thing that I cannot find any data on :mad: ).

I really like I-6's, always have. They have a certain character about them that v-8's lack in my book. That, and given that IHC 6's have the same kind of grunt as Diesels.... it's only logical that I should love them. :)

Any chance you could get Mark P. into this discussion group? I think he would add a great deal to it :)

Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
08-02-2003, 08:27 AM
Ok,

The engine names are another sticky spot with me. I know the following ones.

SD = Silver Diamond

RD = Red Diamond (would love one of those!!!)

BD = Black Diamond (another favorite)

GRD = Green Diamond

BG =

That is one that escapes me, what does it mean? I know there are other ones I have missed, so chime in with your knowledge guys, and PICS of the engines if you have them.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Andy McElhaney
08-02-2003, 09:19 AM
I looked in the Hollander Manual (the interchange manual used in wrecking yards) and found some info on the 220/240/264/308 blocks. There is some confusion, but here is what they have.

#568- BD220,240; BG220,241; SD220, 240
#569- BD264, BG265
#570- BD269
#571- BD282, 308

That covers the SD, BD, BG 6 cylinder engines. The # is the interchange. When you look it up, it tells you what will bolt in as a replacement. When I looked the individual # up it pretty much showed the interchange as what you see beside the #. There was some mention of having to use the oil pump and filter assy for each engine if you change displacements.

Matt O'Bryan
08-02-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly


BG =

That is one that escapes me, what does it mean?

BG- Blue-Grey.

As was explained to the digest a couple years ago by Hofs (I think...), They were running out of primary colors, and Fushia Diamond just wouldn't cut it :D:D

Jim Grammer
08-02-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly

BG =

That is one that escapes me, what does it mean? I know there are other ones I have missed, so chime in with your knowledge guys, and PICS of the engines if you have them.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Matt nailed it, and I have never had or seen an engine with enough of the original paint on it to be ale to pursue a match :( My '64 would have been close, but the PO had just spray bombed the motor with some Ford(I think) blue-ish color before we bought it. SD's are easy(argent silver) and BD's are a total no-brainer, but I have not been able to find a color code for the BG. The paint charts I have show color codes for bumpers, dash panels and other errata, but not the dang engine! I tried Bill Hirsch the Hemmings engine paint guru about 6-7 years ago, no luck then but maybe he's figgered sumthin out by now(?)....

Jim Grammer
08-02-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly


I would love to chop up a manifold, and put a brace of polished 1bbl carbs (3 to be exact) on this engine.

Chrome the valve cover and side cover(s), and give the engine a nice fresh coat of the correct color of IH paint (another thing that I cannot find any data on :mad: ).

You hot rodding fool! An IH gow-job! ;)

Wanna talk *really* snakey? Have 3 separate manifolds cast. Or....2 cast manifolds to run Weber 32/36's :) Go baby!!

Any chance you could get Mark P. into this discussion group? I think he would add a great deal to it :)

All indications from Mark are that he is on hiatus from Binderdom for the time being :( He even 'archive dumped' his 392 tuning info on me(in hard copy no less). Wouldn't hurt to ask tho'

T-Ruxx
08-03-2003, 12:47 AM
I guess it's time I jump in the mix, I have a clifford Intake for my 235, it takes a 390cfm 4 barrel, it looks very close to the IHC intake. I think I might try some trial fitting this winter . The Fenton Headers are split so they would be even easier to adapt.

what's the biggest engine I can bolt in without modification? the 264 will fit in place of the 220, anything bigger? what's a 280/308?

I painted my SD 220 with a couple rattle cans of pontiac engine paint , would that make it a BG 220, (blue/green)?

I guess I've always had a soft spot for inlines,of the 20 some odd cars I've owned, 2 had V-8's, 2 had V-6's, and the balance are various forms of inlines.

that's enough for now, later, Greg

John Donnelly
08-03-2003, 08:29 AM
Jim, Greg,

I pressure washed the BG241 yesterday... lo and behold, the engine is "blue-green". I found that after blasting off about 2 layers of some kind of "dark-blue".

In fact, it looks to be the same "blue-green" that Pontiac painted thier engines after 1965, it definitely has some metallic tint in it.

I have mountains of rattle cans of that paint left from my GTO days. :rolleyes:

Guess I am going to yard the engine out, clean and regasket it, and give it a fresh coat of the correct color.

Thanks to all on this one. :)

Keep on Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
08-03-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by T-Ruxx
what's the biggest engine I can bolt in without modification? the 264 will fit in place of the 220, anything bigger? what's a 280/308?

Greg,

My understanding from Ernie is you can put any BD, BG, or SD in there.

I would love to get my hands on a 280 or a 308 :D

RD's are huge, and won't fit. The Truck Museum has/had an IH truck with an RD 406 in it, man, that was a monster :)

Can't wait to get a rig with that kind of "mountain motor" six in it.

Keep on Dieselin',

John

Matt O'Bryan
08-03-2003, 01:41 PM
The first big truck the Ol Man let me drive was a 1955 R-190 with the Royal RD-501. plenty of power, and 1 gallon to the mile.

Listening to that thing idle through a 4inch straight pipe was certainly one of my "formative experiances" WOOOF-CHUFFF, barump, WOOOF-CHUFFF,barump.

He's still got it :)

Matt O'Bryan
08-03-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly


Greg,

My understanding from Ernie is you can put any BD, BG, or SD in there.

I would love to get my hands on a 280 or a 308 :D


So the "tall deck" 280/308 is still small enougth for light line applications...

hmmm....

Dave's 58 A-120 Travellette needs more go-go.

Jim Grammer
08-03-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by T-Ruxx
what's a 280/308?

I painted my SD 220 with a couple rattle cans of pontiac engine paint , would that make it a BG 220, (blue/green)?

The 282 and 308 were 'officially' introduced with the R line in '53 according to Crismon. I am very suspicious that they are variants of earlier engines, as the older triple diamond logo is cast into the block. The most likely suspect is the 269 Super Blue Diamond, which was also OHV and disappeared when the 282/308 came out.

Between the SD and BG there were a few changes. The easiest one to bust you on would be the wider valve cover for the later 'tilt valve' head. ;)

John Donnelly
08-03-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer
Between the SD and BG there were a few changes. The easiest one to bust you on would be the wider valve cover for the later 'tilt valve' head. ;)

"Tilt Valve".....

Gonna have to expound on that one there Jim ol' bean. :)

I love this, we have more information already about IHC sixers than we had over the last few years.

Please brain dump,

John

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
08-04-2003, 04:38 AM
out here the 281/282/283 ran stromberg carbs which were a very reliable and easy to repair carb. just for the sake of the differences!:D

Jim Grammer
08-04-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly


"Tilt Valve".....

Gonna have to expound on that one there Jim ol' bean. :)

I love this, we have more information already about IHC sixers than we had over the last few years.

Please brain dump,

John

"Open the pod bay door please, HAL" :cool:

Somewhere in the late '50's(SD to BD transition maybe), the IH engine boys tilted the intake valves on the 'little' OHV 6's and went to a 'wedge' combustion chamber. Probably influenced by contemporary industry thinking, likely some learning from the SV engine development as well. More power, better fuel economy. Wider valve cover to clear the rockers. I want to say the tilt was something like 20.

I continue to maintain that the most efficacious power adder for these babies is forced induction :D

58Binder
08-04-2003, 08:20 PM
Not sure what carb, but the head is huge.

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
08-07-2003, 03:54 AM
i also aint to sure about that carb but the aussie stromberg ones look a whole lot simpler!

T-Ruxx
08-13-2003, 10:58 PM
anyone come up with a carb upgrade? I haven't experimented with my clifford intake/ 390 carb yet . I'm just waiting till after the truck show.
I'm too busy now anyway, trying to build a garage, thin out the herd, not to mention overtime. later, Greg

Jim Grammer
08-14-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by T-Ruxx
anyone come up with a carb upgrade? I haven't experimented with my clifford intake/ 390 carb yet . I'm just waiting till after the truck show.

A Weber 32/36 has *got* to be the hot tip, 330CFM is more than enough for even a 264. They're s'posed to be great on the Heep 258 which spins a bunch faster than a tractor motor ;) I think that's the way I'm going on the wife's A-100 Travelall, that way I can give her an auto choke.

T-Ruxx
08-14-2003, 05:54 PM
tell me more about the weber. I got the 390 , for my 235, I compared manifolds between the 2 engines, they look pretty close. what does the weber come off of? later, Greg

Jim Grammer
08-15-2003, 10:14 AM
The Weber is a new carb, here's one source:

http://www.jameng.com/products/index.phtml?section=11

You also need a Weber to 1bbl adapter, they have those too.

Google on 'jeep weber' for a flood of stuff. It's a somewhat popular updrade for the 232/258 ;)

58Binder
08-15-2003, 07:06 PM
Will this be to much carb for the Bd 240's?

T-Ruxx
08-15-2003, 07:10 PM
I've got a 2bbl down draft weber on my spitfire , I'm thinking that it's the same carb. All I really need is the adapter . I'll just put the su carbs back on the spit. I'm trying to sell it anyway.
32/36 , does that refer to the jet sizes? Later, Greg

T-Ruxx
08-16-2003, 12:32 PM
I was all fired up to order the universal adaptor plate, then I thought I could find it locally, tried the 4x4 shop, nothing. They refered me to a performance shop, they had one hanging on the wall. The adaptor from the web was $47 plus shipping, so I'm thinking , this thing is going to be $50 or $60, he tells me $19.20,..... sold! anyway It's for a 2GC , so I either have to worrble 2 holes or go get a 2GC. working on the brakes right now, so the carb's on the back burner, I'll keep y'all posted.
later, Greg

IHWillys
08-22-2003, 02:33 PM
Hello

I don't have anything to contribute here at this time but I'm glad to find this thread.

I just purchased a 1960 B140 with a BD264 in it. It's tired, probably not from mileage but from sitting at various points in it's life. It may be mileage though... I don't have the truck here yet to inpsect it(need to figure out how to get it from Virginia to Colorado without breaking the bank).

Anyway, I plan to refurbish the engine if it's not worn out. I don't expect it to be worn out so I'm planning on a re-ring and head job.

I'd like to know some basics concerning these engines. Such as:
- governed rpm/max rpm
- hp/tq numbers
- weight
- carb type
- bellhousing bolt pattern(same as SV?)


This truck is the one Joel F. purchased earlier this year. I drooled over it when he posted pics, then in my recent search for an IH truck of some sort I noticed his page listed it as For Sale so I jumped on it(so to speak).

Thanks,

Ken

Goober
08-22-2003, 07:07 PM
Congradulations, you have aquired one hellatious (s?), bad *****, beast of a truck. I saw the truck on Joel's page and drooled over it as well. Please keep us informed on your build up of this truck. Be sure and post alot of pics. Man! thats a cool truck.

Goober
08-24-2003, 09:12 PM
The mech. fuel pump on my BD240 crapped out so i installed a push type electric pump close to the tank (still routed through the mech. pump like the repair manual says). My problem now is that when the elec. pump starts runnung, fuel starts pouring out of a vent on the top of my carb and driping out of the main outlet, inside the carb. I am sure it is time for a rebuild but I wanted to ask before I disassembled it just incase.

Problem #2

Starter gets weak easily. All parts are new exept the armature and I have worked with it so that now it looks new. It will spin fine but if it stops in a certain spot I cannot get it to spin again without taking off the front cover and spinning the armature by hand.

I know both of thes problems could be solved easily by getting a new carb (or buying a rebuild kit) and by getting a new starter but I am on an extemely tight budget and would like to try to fix both broblems as is before I spend the money.

That said I did get the ol' gal to fire up again tonight. Let her run for about a half minute before I shut her off (no radiator right now). Probably the longest amount of time she has run in 10-15 years. Ran smooth as silk. Tried to fire her up again but my starter was getting weak.

T-Ruxx
08-24-2003, 09:23 PM
I had that problem on a spitfire I own. It kept spewing out gas, I got one of those fuel regulators , the kind that has a dial on it , later, Greg

Goober
08-24-2003, 09:38 PM
Tell me more about the fuel regulator

John Donnelly
08-24-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Goober
Problem #2

Starter gets weak easily. All parts are new exept the armature and I have worked with it so that now it looks new. It will spin fine but if it stops in a certain spot I cannot get it to spin again without taking off the front cover and spinning the armature by hand.

Goober,

It would appear that you have what the old boys would call a "flat spot" on the armature of your starter.

If you take it off, dissasemble it, and take it into an auto electrical shop that can rebuild a starter, they can fix the armature by turning it on a lathe to get a fresh contact area on it.

Get new brushes at the same time. Brushes are cheap usually, and your starter should be an old DELCO/REMY, which means that they should be on the shelf at the shop.

Also, check your starter armature bearings, make sure they turn smoothly. If they don't try pressing a bit of high pressure grease past the seal cover ( you can do it, it just takes time) to re-lube the bearing.

This is all old school fixes, stuff I was taught by old timers to keep a rig running when money was tight, and a fresh starter wasn't in the cards at the time.



That said I did get the ol' gal to fire up again tonight. Let her run for about a half minute before I shut her off (no radiator right now). Probably the longest amount of time she has run in 10-15 years. Ran smooth as silk. Tried to fire her up again but my starter was getting weak.

GREAT!!!!!:cool:

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on the progress!

Keep on Binderin',

John

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
08-25-2003, 04:36 AM
just in reply to goobers problems,

the starter motor from what you saying has been reconditioned?
if so it sounds not so much like a flat spot, but an area on the commutator - this is made up of segments of copper which the brushes run on, quite often the people who rebuild the starter dont undercut the mica insulators in between the copper segments and as such after a short time the brushes get lifted off the copper by the mica protuding, to under cut the armature you need a broken hacksaw blade - first grind the front of the blade to take off the curve and allow the cutting teeth to go right up to the end of the commutator, then gring the offset of the teeth off so it fits in between the copper segments, gently clamp the armature in a vice and work your way slowley around the commutator, when finished sand off the rough edges with emery paper.
the other thing to check is where the copper windings actually are connected to the comutator, you might need to resolder any loose ones back into place with a large soldering iron (around 150watts)

the armature should be checked on a 'growler' for any short or open circuits when finished id let ya use mine but im a bit far away! ( id even do the starter for ya ;) )

as for the fuel pump problem- did you take the inlet valve out of the original fuel pump?(assuming its rebuildable) so the original pump cannot compound the fuel pressure. the other thing you may need to do is readjust your needle and seat in the carb, some times the floats get a little heavy with age and dont seal too well because they cannot press the needle and seat tight enough, it may need to be adjusted to suit.


Greg you say you own a spitfire? - a triumph spitfire i presume what model? i had a triumph herald convertable which basically runs the same chassis as the spitfire (only the body mounts are different)- 1962 948cc 4cyl twin su carbs, 4 speed, independant suspension all around and a turning circle that nothing can come close to.

regards paul
autoelectrician,armature winder etc

John Donnelly
08-25-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by misterfixit
just in reply to goobers problems,

the starter motor from what you saying has been reconditioned?
if so it sounds not so much like a flat spot, but an area on the commutator - this is made up of segments of copper which the brushes run on, quite often the people who rebuild the starter dont undercut the mica insulators in between the copper segments and as such after a short time the brushes get lifted off the copper by the mica protuding, to under cut the armature you need a broken hacksaw blade - first grind the front of the blade to take off the curve and allow the cutting teeth to go right up to the end of the commutator, then gring the offset of the teeth off so it fits in between the copper segments, gently clamp the armature in a vice and work your way slowley around the commutator, when finished sand off the rough edges with emery paper.
the other thing to check is where the copper windings actually are connected to the comutator, you might need to resolder any loose ones back into place with a large soldering iron (around 150watts)

the armature should be checked on a 'growler' for any short or open circuits when finished id let ya use mine but im a bit far away! ( id even do the starter for ya ;) )

regards paul
autoelectrician,armature winder etc

Once again, the Americans and the Australians are two peoples separated by a common language ;)

We are talking about the same thing. As of late Paul, I think I would box up most of my electrical stuff and send it to you, as around here anymore most of the shops are getting mighty stupid when it comes to fixin' stuff. :)

Binderin',

John

Baradium
08-25-2003, 09:43 AM
what kind of electric pump are you running? A higher pressure pump will pump past the needle and seat and create your problem. There are low pressure pumps for carbs, otherwise you need to use a regulator to drop the fuel pressure.

As far as the starter, you sure it wasn't the battery getting weak?

T-Ruxx
08-25-2003, 07:29 PM
Yea Paul, it's a 1976 Triumph Spitfire 1500. your right the turning radius is tight . I remember one time , a friend and myself got all liquored up , and took it in his backyard, and was cutting cookies in the dog pen. I got a lot of memories with that old car, good and bad. I bought it in 1983, and I still have it.
When I started getting into IHC's , John Donnelly told me I'd find the IHC's are opposite of spitfires , where as the spits don't know when to start running, and International's don't know when to quit .
Gotta go, Greg

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
08-26-2003, 12:58 AM
here's a thought - maybe i should move to the us and start a shop that repairs old stuff!:D

and for those that dont know how tight the turning circle is on a spitfire or herald - when they were released they had no safety beads on the rims, and if you went to right or left lock at anything over 20mph you would peel the tyres off of the rims!

when i started my apprenticeship way back around 21 years ago, i was placed into an amature winding area, where almost anything was rewound, and having a background in the vintage car clubs, i decided that if it was different or out of the ordinary id do the job no matter how complex, other guys would hide so they didnt get the hard jobs but i just saw the challenge in it, the place was a treasure trove of history - i was cleaning up one area and found brand new wiring looms for cars 50 years old that had fallen behind a row of shelving. we even rewound magneto's. the place has closed and gone now but i still have fond memories of the place - we wernt even allowed to have the radio on while we worked - the boss said 'the radio hasn't been on for the last 50 years and it is not going to be on for the next 50 years' lol

Jim Grammer
08-26-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by 58Binder
Will this be to much carb for the Bd 240's?

Sorry, I've been negligent on this thread :o

Rick, the Weber 32/36 should be perfect for the 240. It *might* want to be jetted a little leaner for a low revving engine, but I doubt it. I've heard from others that the folks at JAM engineering know their stuff on these.

T-Ruxx, I believe the 32/36 designation refers to either the throttle bore or the venturi size. These have a pregressive linkage of some sort that starts you on the 32 and moves to the 36 as I understand it.

I'm buying what I think is a 38DGEV used locally later this week, I'll know more after I fiddle with it. Pretty sure it wants to be on the 264 in Jan's A-100 Travelall :)

Goober, the fuel regulators are marketed under the Purolator and prolly other brands. They look like a big dial with an inlet/outlet. I bet the Holley 1904 doesn't really want to see more than 3-4PSI at it's inlet, IME the needle/seat setup is marginal and sticks easily without any help from the fuel pump :(

Goober
08-31-2003, 02:11 PM
The starter on my A-120 is dead and needs to be replaced. I have rebuilt it but two of the panels on the commutator are pitted. I cannot seem to find anyone who can get this starter. Advance Auto cant find it and Autozone wont even try looking. I will try NAPA on Tuesday but the NAPA here will charge me two prices for anything. Can anyone give me any suggestions?

John Donnelly
08-31-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Goober
The starter on my A-120 is dead and needs to be replaced. I have rebuilt it but two of the panels on the commutator are pitted. I cannot seem to find anyone who can get this starter. Advance Auto cant find it and Autozone wont even try looking. I will try NAPA on Tuesday but the NAPA here will charge me two prices for anything. Can anyone give me any suggestions?

NAPA has the Starter, as does Carquest.

But.......

I would take it to a real alternator/starter shop, and have them work on it. That starter is old school DELCO/REMY, and they should have parts laying on the floor for it.

The only made that starter for about 35/40 years, so I doubt they have become "unobtanium" just yet.

Just giving you some options. :)

Keep on Binderin',

John

Goober
08-31-2003, 05:34 PM
I found a shop that can do the job today. How much does that kind of work usually run? You would think that if these parts are so abundant that Discount/Autozone would be able to order them. Guess not. I looked online and NAPA is not showing my starter and I can't even figure out how to find a starter online at Carquest. I will go to the actual stores on Tues. and see if they have it in the books.

John Donnelly
08-31-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Goober
I found a shop that can do the job today. How much does that kind of work usually run? You would think that if these parts are so abundant that Discount/Autozone would be able to order them. Guess not. I looked online and NAPA is not showing my starter and I can't even figure out how to find a starter online at Carquest. I will go to the actual stores on Tues. and see if they have it in the books.

Goober,

It is my experience that auto electric shops are typically less expensive, and the quality of the work is higher.

Reason? The guy usually has to live in the same town with his customers. If he pisses too many folks off, they won't come back or might burn down his shop ;)

Old stuff isn't listed online at NAPA, they only go back to 69' as I recall, and well..... we are dealing with something that most would call "antique" at best. :D

Carquest had the 6V starter listed for a 51' L-series I had last year IN THE BOOK, so I would say odds are good they can get your starter should you go that route.

I still would go to the auto electric guy. You will know exactly what you get that way, and heck, the guy will most likely rebuild it in front of you.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
09-01-2003, 04:06 AM
pitting on a couple of segments of the commutator is normally caused by an open circuit in the comm to windings the segments in question should have loose windings in the end of the comm and are easily soldered back into place. then after its tested it will then need to be remachined and under cut etc. a job most autoelectrical shops should be able to undertake easily.

an area of concern is how the auto electric shop actually mount the armature in the lathe to machine it, the drive end is easy that just clamps in the chuck, but the comm end is another matter, some armatures have a center drilled into the end of the shaft for a live center on a lathe but that way should never be used because quite simply the comm needs to be machined in relation to the bearing surface it is supported by which is not the center but the out side of the shaft that runs in the bush, so therefore the shaft needs to be supported on the outside of the shaft not the little center which is drilled into the end of a lot of armatures.

some people use a small 3 jaw chuck with brass jaws or a similar sized bush clamped in between the shaft and the jaws, which is adapted to the morse taper which a live center would normally be placed, some use a steady rest and adjust it to suit but they can get in the way.

i just found out what diesel mechanics get paid in the us - now all i need is a green card lol :D

T-Ruxx
09-01-2003, 09:29 AM
I have an extra room Paul, come on over. :D Greg

Goober
09-01-2003, 12:19 PM
I'll start taking up a collection for the plane ticket. Oh, and you can work out of my garage until you get a place of your own.

some armatures have a center drilled into the end of the shaft for a live center on a lathe

My armature's ends are solid.

Thanks for the help.

Goober
09-04-2003, 11:49 PM
Well friends, she's one step closer to road worthy. Took my starter to the shop and they replaced the whole armature ($55, sounds reasonable to me, what do you guys think) and now it spins like mad. A little carb cleaner and some permatex RTV for a fuel bowl gasket and the little model 1904 is mixin' like a champ. I rigged up a makeshift radiator mount and and let her rum for a while. Only bug so far is a small leak in my water pump gasket. I will put some permatex on it tomorrow. As soon as I get the brakes hooked up and working she'll be readt to ride. YEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAW!:D :D :D

T-Ruxx
09-05-2003, 12:11 AM
Congrats, I just got home from an IHC meeting, took my 54 4x4, 2nd time on the road, probably 30 miles round trip. It's a little scary driving it , but then theres the adventure, just like Chuck Yeager. hanging on for dear life, wondering if every little creak and rattle is something about to fall off. Just getting to know the old girl, and finding what sounds are normal, and whats not. later, Greg

Goober
09-05-2003, 10:39 PM
Could somebody with a '58 A- model please post some pics of their throttle linkage from pedal all the way to the carb?

I am having alaot of backfireing throught the carb on startup and there is alot of black soot(s?) building up on the inside od the carb. What is this all about?

How do I connect my alternator? It is a GM 10SI unit. White wire goes____? Red wire goes____?

Thanks for the help.

Colin Rush
09-13-2003, 03:26 PM
Regarding the earlier query about the AMC inlines, and their exclusion from this thread (which I endorse), if you need info on those AMC motors, you should subscribe to the AMC List at:

http://www.amxfiles.com/amc-list/index.cfm.

That list has been around for years, and has a ton of folks who have forgotten more than most folks know. Plus they can turn you on to the available new zoomy parts, and the vendors, many of whom are listers. Many of the listers are IHCers too, and have an appreciation for our vehicles. To subscribe, simply follow the directions, and you will be up and running in no time. Be sure to subscribe in Digest mode, or else you will be overwhelmed with e-mails. If you have any questions about any of this, or need to find folks to get info from, feel free to PM me, and I will forward you to the right people.

John Donnelly
09-14-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Goober
How do I connect my alternator? It is a GM 10SI unit. White wire goes____? Red wire goes____?

Thanks for the help.

Goober,

I think all the help you need to wire up your alternator can be found here, either in the tech section, or by purchasing one of their products.

http://www.madelectrical.com/index.shtml

Keep on Binderin',

John

T-Ruxx
09-14-2003, 01:21 PM
This is what I used on my R-120, and it seems to be working fine, Greg

Goober
09-14-2003, 06:59 PM
Bad news First. I have seen that diagram on oldihc.org and have hooked up my alternator just like that except i don't use a ford style solenoid (Should I? Why?). My starter solenoid is on the side of my starter like a chevy. The alternator is charging fine but I still can't cut off my engine with the key. I have to pull the coil wire. When I hook it up to my starter solenoid it keeps my starter engaged whilst the motor is running. I have run out of ideas. Or maybe I'm just a dumba$$.

Good News. She made her maiden voyage today. Nothing to long of course, I just did some laps in the bank parking lot next door.

No muffler and just a short piece of flex pipe coming from the manifold. Sure was loud. Lots of people were staring. Lots of old men were smiling. Fabbed a nice throttle linkage and it works like a charm.

I guess I need to get used to shifting a non-syncromesh tranny. I was really grindin' em. Is there a trick to shifting this thing?

I can tell now that my ol gal will never see the other side of 50mph. She's just geared too low. That's okay though, she ain't no hot rod, but she'll pull a redwood stump out of the ground, I'm sure.

Rhino51
09-14-2003, 08:10 PM
I have seen a 264(?) I think for sale for quite awhile, if anybody needs one I could stop in there in about 2 weeks to ask for you. Just a thought
Ryan E

John Donnelly
10-22-2003, 09:16 AM
I put this to the entire group.

I am exploring fuel injection of some type for my BG241. I have contacted Clifford performance about their Redline/Weber kit, and have not recieved any information other than a sales pitch without the vital tech.

I would also like to explore Propane injection as a fuel source, and know that IHC sold inlines with this system, and I even have the brochures to prove it.

I would prefer propane, it is clean, a system is already out there somewhere in a box, and it is IHC, which means the level of fab will be next to nil.

Thoughts on which way I should go, or better yet a PLAN with parts, or an entire system are welcome.

Jim? You know more about this than probably anyone, what do you think?

Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
10-22-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly
I put this to the entire group.

I am exploring fuel injection of some type for my BG241. I have contacted Clifford performance about their Redline/Weber kit, and have not recieved any information other than a sales pitch without the vital tech.

I would also like to explore Propane injection as a fuel source, and know that IHC sold inlines with this system, and I even have the brochures to prove it.

I would prefer propane, it is clean, a system is already out there somewhere in a box, and it is IHC, which means the level of fab will be next to nil.

Thoughts on which way I should go, or better yet a PLAN with parts, or an entire system are welcome.

Jim? You know more about this than probably anyone, what do you think?

Binderin',

John

Spoke with the proprietor of this company Click here (http://www.propanecarbs.com/)

And I will know more tomorrow about the feasibility of propane for the I-6 engines.

He seems to think that everything is either still available in a kit, or at least all the parts are in a list somewhere, and still available to be put together.

Figgers cost to be around $600 to $700 bucks for everything but the tank for a dual fuel system.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Colin Rush
10-22-2003, 06:48 PM
John, I believe MoPar makes a kit to convert older AMC sixes to SFI fuel injection. It comes with the manifold, computer, injectors, harness, throttle body, and the works. Had you considered possibly utilizing that, less the manifold? Even if the timing order is wrong, I would think it would just be a matter of rearranging the wiring and plumbing a little bit. Another possiblity would be the Holley TBI kit, made specifically for AMC sixes. Displacement pretty similar (only 17 CID difference), and parts are readily available. If you have your heart set on propane, then so be it, but just a thought.

John Donnelly
10-22-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Colin Rush
If you have your heart set on propane, then so be it, but just a thought.

Heart set on it?

No.

I am weighing all the options. I like propane because it is clean, and well.....different :D

I put it to this group because of the mountain of collective wisdom here, and I hate making a faux pas when all the smart guys could have stopped me.

Don't forget, officer's meeting tonight ;)

Keep on Binderin',

John

Jim Grammer
10-22-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by John Donnelly
Jim? You know more about this than probably anyone, what do you think?

Sorry, just a bit 'distracted'....taking a week off between jobs, naturally I'm working harder than usual :D Not to mention pursuing other projects ;)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, in reality my practical experience is limited in both areas.

I *like* propane, keeps an engine just amazingly clean. Sounds like you have a lead on equipment, I would get a modern mixer and regulator. The Holley 1bbl bolt pattern was so common that I can't imagine finding an adaptor(if needed) is too much of an issue. I've read several places that a 100% propane beats dual fuel.

For EFI, I'd pursue a TBI setup, looks like a fair amount of rework involved in adapting the intake to port injectors. A 2 bbl to 1bbl adapter and GM 2bbl(V-6?) throttle body should do the trick. A GM ECM a la Bill USN and TORC to drive it, or a Megasquirt.

Seems like *somebody* should pursue a turbo install on one of these, propane is s'posed to be fantastic in a turbo app :eek:

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
10-23-2003, 07:18 AM
my ol c1200 with the 281 in it, had a dual fuel setup, the LPG was fed into the carby by what is called a 'sput' which is a short pipe with a 45degree cut on the end of it, fitted into a holee drilled into the carby body, it worked well and was simple, when driving on gasoline you could basicall watch the fuel gauge go down, but on the LPG it was sensational, better power, better economy, smoother running, the big low comp sixes love vapours!

ps the ol c1200 was a little shakey at 100mph lol.:D

John Donnelly
10-23-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Jim Grammer
I *like* propane, keeps an engine just amazingly clean. Sounds like you have a lead on equipment, I would get a modern mixer and regulator. The Holley 1bbl bolt pattern was so common that I can't imagine finding an adaptor(if needed) is too much of an issue. I've read several places that a 100% propane beats dual fuel.


I am exploring the dual fuel setup only to keep me from getting stuck in BFE, with a fuel source just sitting there, and no way to use it. ;)

I agree that the 1bbl Holley flange should be so common as to be growing on the manifold tree, but it hasn't been as easy to find as I thought.

The fella at propanecarbs told me that Dual Fuel would cause a detraction in performance on one fuel or the other, and I would have to choose which one, so I told him that gas could suffer, as I don't intend to run it except in an emergency.

For EFI, I'd pursue a TBI setup, looks like a fair amount of rework involved in adapting the intake to port injectors. A 2 bbl to 1bbl adapter and GM 2bbl(V-6?) throttle body should do the trick. A GM ECM a la Bill USN and TORC to drive it, or a Megasquirt.

More info, links for this would be a help, or direction. Clifford was literally NO HELP on this. I figger that the 235 Chebbie unit they sell would work but I would have to get out the bridgeport, and do a lot of TIG to make something, and I wouldn't be guaranteed that it would perform well in the end.

Seems like *somebody* should pursue a turbo install on one of these, propane is s'posed to be fantastic in a turbo app :eek:

Turbo? hmmm.... It's not like I don't have a mountain of them to play with :D I think something like a T-3 would work well on that motor, and a large A/R housing would be a benefit. Guess I need to talk to TD&E about it.

I will wait to see what the guy from propanecarbs.com comes back with, if he comes up bupkus, then the Travelall is gettin' a Diesel. ;)

Keep on Binderin',

John

Colin Rush
10-23-2003, 09:13 AM
While you are talking to the propane dude, ask if perhaps he would be interested in putting together a shopping list to convert an SV motor, with the idea of posting on the BB or in a club newsletter. I did not get a chance to say anything, but when you mentioned Clifford, I would have said to save your phone bill. They have lots of stuff for the 'common' 6-cylinders, but my experience with them is they are not interested in anything custom, and have virtually no experience with anything outside of what is in their catalogue. Their tech guys are not so great either. Regarding the 1-bbl Holley flange (I am assuming you are talking about the manifold flange, not the air horn), find out what other flanges they have available. Then look in an Offenhauser catalogue. They have a ton of adaptors, and if I remember correctly, they have many 1-bbl adaptors.

John Donnelly
10-23-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Colin Rush
While you are talking to the propane dude, ask if perhaps he would be interested in putting together a shopping list to convert an SV motor, with the idea of posting on the BB or in a club newsletter. I did not get a chance to say anything, but when you mentioned Clifford, I would have said to save your phone bill. They have lots of stuff for the 'common' 6-cylinders, but my experience with them is they are not interested in anything custom, and have virtually no experience with anything outside of what is in their catalogue. Their tech guys are not so great either. Regarding the 1-bbl Holley flange (I am assuming you are talking about the manifold flange, not the air horn), find out what other flanges they have available. Then look in an Offenhauser catalogue. They have a ton of adaptors, and if I remember correctly, they have many 1-bbl adaptors.

I don't even know where to find an OFFY catalogue anymore. I haven't seen a place that is an OFFY dealer in about a decade.

Know any? Got a catalogue?

I was totally unimpressed with Clifford, I think it is hiliarious that they still make Hudson speed parts. How many of those can still be around? 5? 10?

I bet I have more IHC 6's in my back yard than there are Hudsons that need speed parts.

I will inquire with him about propane parts for the SV, but I also happen to know that International still services propane engines, so the parts may be as close as the local dealer on those.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Mike Fiock
10-25-2003, 12:35 AM
Have two R-110 pu's that have been together since 1954. I think that one good one be made out of the two. I do not have the time for the project myself. Would sell them both for a reasonible price. Anyone know someone who mwants a project like that. Mike- 1-541-688-3232.

BIG BLOCK BILL
11-19-2003, 11:43 AM
I've already acquired a ton of great info about the IH I6 around here and I have a few more questions. Does anyone know if the IH sixes are seven main bearing engines? And please correct me if I'm wrong, the BD, BG, and SD engines are the light truck engines while the GRD and the RD are the meduim/heavy truck engines. Are they all the same but using different accessory mounts and a larger crank snout? Because that's what the Big Three does when they modify a light engine for medium/heavy duty use. Or are they totally different engines all together? I know most of the specs on the BD and BG engines, so I'm curious about the others. Does anyone know the bore, stroke, CI, etc. of the other engines?

IHWillys
11-19-2003, 03:30 PM
Hello Bill

The BD264 has four mains. The rear is a four bolt, not splayed but four in a rectangle pattern. The other three are two bolt.

Ken

Baradium
11-19-2003, 08:58 PM
IIRC the red diamond engines aren't actually IH motors, but a contracted motor built by another company...

John Donnelly
11-20-2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Baradium
IIRC the red diamond engines aren't actually IH motors, but a contracted motor built by another company...

I would ask that we keep this to what we actually know.....

If you cannot recall the company, and you are "theorizing" please back it up with some evidence please.

The reason why I say this is based on what I know, IHC built them. I cannot prove it one way or the other so I have kept it to myself.

Please provide some book references, or links, or something, as this would be a good thing to have resolved.

Binderin',

John

Baradium
11-20-2003, 04:11 PM
Sorry...

Asked the person I'd been talking to before... we'd been talking about a particular truck and he mentioned it might have Red Diamond/continental engine meaning one or the other and I took it to mean that they were the same animal...

Speaking of the continentals, since they aren't as common and were used in the IHs, will discussion on them be allowed?


Sorry it took so long to post, wrote the thing and then forgot to hit submit when I had to run to class...


Sorry about the misinformation, I'll try to be more thorough next time...

John Donnelly
11-20-2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by BIG BLOCK BILL
I've already acquired a ton of great info about the IH I6 around here and I have a few more questions. Does anyone know if the IH sixes are seven main bearing engines?

IHWillys got that one for you, so I won't beat the horse any deader for you :D

And please correct me if I'm wrong, the BD, BG, and SD engines are the light truck engines while the GRD and the RD are the meduim/heavy truck engines.

According to the manuals I have, the SD 220 was used in all models up to the L/R-150, and the SD240 was offered in all models up to the L/R-165.

Basically that means that the SD220 was used in everything up to and including a 1-1/2 Ton truck.

SD240's and BD 264's took over from there, and went up to vehicles with upwards of 18,000 GVW.

Anything "SD" is the same as "BG" for information purposes.

Red Diamonds (RD's) were used in L/R-185's to L/R-210's So they were "Big Rig" or Semi engines.

Red Diamonds came in RD-372, RD-406, and RD450.

Are they all the same but using different accessory mounts and a larger crank snout? Because that's what the Big Three does when they modify a light engine for medium/heavy duty use. Or are they totally different engines all together?

The Engines are completely different by MODEL.

SD/BG and BD 264/BG265 are the same unless they are "Tilt Valve" type (a later cylinder head/valve-train change) engines.

Super Blue Diamonds, Super Red Diamonds, Green Diamonds, etc... all thier own design, and all purpose-built.

There are substantial internal changes over the years to all of these engines in bearing shell design, number of piston rings, oil pump volumes, etc... it is important to know what year engine you have before buying parts.

I know most of the specs on the BD and BG engines, so I'm curious about the others. Does anyone know the bore, stroke, CI, etc. of the other engines?

Super Black Diamond 282

Bore - 3-13/16"
Stroke - 4-1/8"

Cubic Inches - 282.546"

Brake Horsepower - 130 at 3400 RPM's
Torque - 246 lbs-ft at 1800 RPM's.

Red Diamond 372

Bore - 4-3/8"
Stroke - 4-1/8"

Cubic Inches - 372.06"

Brake Horsepower - 143 at 3200 RPM's
Torque - 282.5 lbs. ft. at 1600 RPM's

Red Diamond 406

Bore - 4-3/8"
Stroke - 4-1/2"

Cubic Inches - 405.89"

Brake Horsepower - 154 at 3200 RPM's
Torque - 319 lbs. ft. at 1200 RPM's

Red Diamond 450

Bore - 4-3/8"
Stroke - 5"

Cubic Inches - 450.99"

Brake Horsepower - 162 at 3000 RPM's
Torque - 358.5 lbs. ft. at 1200 RPM's

I will add to this thread as I get more information on various "Diamond" engines.

Keep on Binderin',

John

Mernjohn
11-21-2003, 09:00 AM
I don't see any mention of the BD-308. What were its applications?

Incidentally, my old service manual has information on carburetor LPG applications for BD-240 up through RD-450 if anyone is interested.

John Donnelly
11-21-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Mernjohn
I don't see any mention of the BD-308. What were its applications?

Incidentally, my old service manual has information on carburetor LPG applications for BD-240 up through RD-450 if anyone is interested.

I didn't post any info on the BD-308 because I don't have any.

Feel free to post the vital statistics from your manual, and if you want to scan a few pics of the Propane stuff, go ahead. I haven't been able to source the 308 stuff from anyone "official" and we have permission to copy that kind of rate stuff here.

Start a new thread for the propane info if you would.

Binderin',

John

Mernjohn
11-21-2003, 02:59 PM
John,

I'm unable to post the specs. The sheets are jpeg files which I'm trying to attach. It times out before it can finish. I have three sheets to post and can't get the first one out. The info is in columns, trying to convert to text makes a big mess when I run it through the OCR software. I can also try scanning just one column and convert that to a text file.

I'll put together something on the LPG info but expect I'll have have the same trouble.

Marion

T-Ruxx
11-30-2003, 01:55 PM
It sounds like you guys have a lot of good upgrades in the works, if you need a rig to experiment on , I could offer up Ephraim as a guinea pig, just tell me what to get, maybe we could turn them into workshops for the club. Just a thought.
Later, Greg

Colin Rush
11-30-2003, 04:20 PM
I did not see the specs on the 308 listed here, but according to my TSM the 308 is virtually identical to the 282 with the exception of the stroke.
Bore: 3 13/16"
Stroke: 4 1/2"
Both the 282 and 308 have the same AMA rated HP of 34.8, but the 308 has 154 max brake HP at 3600 RPM, and 136.4 net HP at 3200 RPM.
The 308 has 286.1 ft/lbs of max torque at 1800 RPM, and 274.5 net torque at 1800 RPM.
My manual does not state if there is any difference in valve sizes, nor is there any info on the application.

Regarding Greg's use of the Rochester GC, I looked on some of the inline sites, and found some reference to 'how to make your Rochester work right'. The fact that there is an article about fixing inherent problems with that carb indicates to me that it might not be the best choice of carb. (Too bad for me, as I passed up a YF in favor of one of those carbs.) If you can get a Carter YF, I have not heard anything bad about them, and they were used up until the 1980s. The one I had worked great before I put the W-1 back on in my '41 pickup. The older W-1s worked well too, but rejetting might be a trick.

If anyone in the Oregon area can loan me a manifold for a while, I can compare it to my inline Chev manifolds, and see how much different they are dimensionally. Just outside of Portland is a place that makes and sells headers and dual exhausts and multi-carb and large carb and blower manifolds for inline Chev and GM motors. They might be able to make something to fit the IH motors without much modification, which helps keep the price down low. They are called Larrowe's (formerly the Stovebolt Engine Company), and they have been around for quite a while. It would not be a big deal to at least show the guy what we have to work with, and maybe have him work up a price to make something for the IH inlines. As far as I know, the only manifolds near me are on BD motors, and currently being used, unless John or T-Ruxx wanted to do the footwork.;)

John Donnelly
11-30-2003, 04:43 PM
BD 264/BG265 and SD/BG intakes are all the same.

I have a spare BD 264 intake. Greg can look at his chebbie stuff and take his SD 240 intake and compare them as he has both.

I seem to recall we looked at this, and none of it lines up.

I have toyed with the idea of hacking a Clifford intake apart to get the carb section, and then grafting it into the IHC part, but Clifford stuff is aluminum, and the IHC stuff is iron.

My current bent is towards TBI. I see no benefit to multi-point sequential injection on a slow turning IHC engine, so TBI to me makes the best sense. The main reason is it requires the least modification to the original design, which must have been good because other than some different carb choices, IHC didn't mess with it much over about 10 years (tilt-valve era).

This is all my opinion. I am not claiming that "God appeared and spoke to me" about any of this.

But it makes the most practical sense. This engine will not make High-RPM's and too much would need to be done to get it to achieve that. Cams, fuel delivery, headers... .why?

It turns 3800 RPM's and only has 4 main bearings. The crankshaft mass is huge.

Heck, just getting parts for the engine is proving to be a bit of a bugger for some folks.

I am not adverse to high-po stuff, but we gotta have a good reason to go after the stuff first. I don't see any high-duration or dual pattern camshafts, and doubt we could get any made anyway. Got any idea where we might go for that sort of thing? Only with some really good cam options can I see going after wild induction and exhaust stuff.

We need someone who can tell us objectively what sort of cam profiles we could use. None of the Clifford stuff would apply, it is all for much lighter-mass engines than the IHC I-6.

My battle plan is as follows:

1) Good running baseline engine. I am going to re-ring, and re-bearing my BG 241.

2) TBI conversion, to include HEI for the distrubutor.

3) Run it for a year, and see how it performs.

4) Try and mess with another aspect of the engine after I see with my own "butt-dyno" if it's going be worth going after wild induction and such.

Right now we have a bunch of I-6 resurrection in progress, with the exception of "58' Binder", none of us is actually using one of these engines every day yet.

But, we know more now than we did 6 months ago ;)

Binderin',

John

John Donnelly
11-30-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by T-Ruxx
It sounds like you guys have a lot of good upgrades in the works, if you need a rig to experiment on , I could offer up Ephraim as a guinea pig, just tell me what to get, maybe we could turn them into workshops for the club. Just a thought.
Later, Greg

I would not be adverse to this idea, but first we need to get Ephraim over the hump of being "almost there".

Ephraim would be an excellent test-bed vehicle as you are in running condition.

Lets get the last bits of daily-driver wrenching out of the way so you can run the beast and not feel like Chuck Yeager anymore. :D

OK?

Binderin',

John

Colin Rush
11-30-2003, 05:31 PM
I will not worry so much about it now, but if anyone decides they want to possibly invest in any hop-up parts for those motors, they should so say over the next months so we can gauge the interest for that sort of thing. I believe if someone wanted a custom cam for that, I can find a source (I have heard of a guy in the midwest that does that type of thing), but will not do it until someone says they want one. I would think that cam profiles would not be that different than, say, a 302 GM motor, or one of the big-six Fords. However, I would leave that to the cam grinding gods to say.
One thing that folks could be examining is the feasibility of head swaps among the IH inlines. That is one thing that the GM inline crowd pays particular attention to in the quest for higher compression and more power.
John, if you go the TBI route, I would like to be there to either witness or lend a hand during the install.

John Donnelly
11-30-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Colin Rush
I will not worry so much about it now, but if anyone decides they want to possibly invest in any hop-up parts for those motors, they should so say over the next months so we can gauge the interest for that sort of thing.

I guess it will take us all deciding what we actually want from these engines. I of course am all about the aftermarket catering to us a bit, since they really don't right now.

I believe if someone wanted a custom cam for that, I can find a source (I have heard of a guy in the midwest that does that type of thing), but will not do it until someone says they want one. I would think that cam profiles would not be that different than, say, a 302 GM motor, or one of the big-six Fords. However, I would leave that to the cam grinding gods to say.


I wouldn't even attempt it without the input of a cam god. I say we at least open a dialogue with the guy, and possibly "Delta Camshaft" up in Tacoma, WA if the are still around.

One thing that folks could be examining is the feasibility of head swaps among the IH inlines. That is one thing that the GM inline crowd pays particular attention to in the quest for higher compression and more power.


Since all the IHC 6's are around 7.5 to 1, I doubt we are going to find any way to up the compression on the engines. They already have a raised dome, and are still in the basement compression-wise. I think Jim Grammer is on the right track with his belief that these engines scream out for a turbocharger.

John, if you go the TBI route, I would like to be there to either witness or lend a hand during the install.

I wouldn't do it without you, you ought to know that by now:D

Binderin',

John

Dave Nuenke
12-01-2003, 11:10 PM
First off I just found this discussion group, and thanks John for creating it, we really need it. As Matt mentioned some time ago I have a 58 120 4x4 T'ette. Currently has a BD264. First off, what SV will this best compare to in terms of pulling/towing power. Next, though the information still seems to be elusive, I'd be really interested in how the BD308 compares to the 264.

A little more info to make some sense out of this... The A120 4x4 is obviously a very rare truck, in fact I'm pretty sure that I stumbled upon one of the very last complete ones around. Thus the plan for this truck is to at least keep it looking correct. Thus, it will remain an IH 6 as no V8 was offered in the A. I do however plan to actually drive it when I finally get it finished, and do a little towing. Nothing major in the towing dept, just a single car trailer with a Scout, probably to Nationals, just to prove a point..... Thus the prospect of a motor that looks very much like the 264 but with more cubes is quite appealing. Oh, for those who are curious the truck also has a 4 speed and 4.30 gears.

Dave

John Donnelly
12-10-2003, 09:43 AM
Given the growth of this thread, and the desire to expand it beyond the scope of the OLD IHC forum, I have contacted Mark Young on the Just Internationals Forum, and requested an IHC Six Cylinder forum be created to increase our knowlege base on these fine engines.

He has graciously given his permission, and will be setting up a vBulletin forum on thier site for our use. As soon as it is up and running, I will add a link here to it. It will requre you to register as you did here on the BB, and I would ask that you continue to use your current BB name or handle so we can keep everyone straight.

I have volunteered to Moderate it in the beginning, but hope that eventually one of our other members will take it on.

Lets get the 6's roarin' again!

Keep on Binderin',

John

Baradium
12-10-2003, 03:57 PM
Why not put it here in the BB?

John Donnelly
12-11-2003, 07:43 AM
6 Cylinder nuts, we have our own discussion board

http://www.justinternationals.org/Binder-Bench/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=30

Let's get to it!

Binderin',

John

Carl Wiese
12-17-2003, 12:05 AM
Well,

I have registered on the JI board, but decided to post over here first. My Dad and I are getting a KB-5 on Saturday and I can't find any HP or Torque specs for the GD 233 on the web anywhere. I tried here, OldIHC.org and other source, but came up nill. Anybody got these specs?

Thanks

Carl

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
12-17-2003, 05:20 AM
i have been thinking about signing up over at justinternationals forum but in reality that just means its another ih forum for me to check daily, i allready check out this binder site, the old binder site and oldihc forums, do i really need to expand to 4 forums? i am really going to have to think it over before i make the effort to post over there.

untill this thread started here, the old ih section of the web site was virtually dead with about 4-5 people contributing to any given post (mainly myself and t-ruxx) of which there was maybe 1 new post in every 2 weeks. with most of those being from people who use the old ihc forum looking for answers that old ihc couldnt supply, i even got an invite from jim hadfiel to join the old ihc forum because of my general knowledge of things old.

i would however like to personally thank john donnelly for his efforts in livening up this section of the web site, but i do feel the moving of the thread will in the end, send the old ih section back to the quiet unfrequented section it was. as time goes on i see more and more scout owners purchasing older ih's and as the thread may grow on the ji forum in the long term i beleive that residual loss of posters from this site posting on the ji site being already known to the current and future scout owners will be a sad thing as there is nothing better than getting advice from someone you know and trust.

just my 2cents worth imho

thanks paul

John Donnelly
12-17-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by misterfixit
i have been thinking about signing up over at justinternationals forum but in reality that just means its another ih forum for me to check daily, i allready check out this binder site, the old binder site and oldihc forums, do i really need to expand to 4 forums? i am really going to have to think it over before i make the effort to post over there.

untill this thread started here, the old ih section of the web site was virtually dead with about 4-5 people contributing to any given post (mainly myself and t-ruxx) of which there was maybe 1 new post in every 2 weeks. with most of those being from people who use the old ihc forum looking for answers that old ihc couldnt supply, i even got an invite from jim hadfiel to join the old ihc forum because of my general knowledge of things old.

i would however like to personally thank john donnelly for his efforts in livening up this section of the web site, but i do feel the moving of the thread will in the end, send the old ih section back to the quiet unfrequented section it was. as time goes on i see more and more scout owners purchasing older ih's and as the thread may grow on the ji forum in the long term i beleive that residual loss of posters from this site posting on the ji site being already known to the current and future scout owners will be a sad thing as there is nothing better than getting advice from someone you know and trust.

just my 2cents worth imho

thanks paul

Paul,

I only requested the creation of the forum on the J.I. site due for two reasons, one is experience in REALLY LONG threads.

Folks hate them. Or, at least the majority of them do. Maybe it comes from the remote control TV generation, or whatever, but when a thread gets over 2 pages long, folks lose interest in it typically. Having moderated Dieseltalk on the vB since it's inception, I feel that I have a good idea about what catches peoples eye.

My hope is that the J.I. I-6 forum will expand the community. Given J.I.'s desire to fuel inject the IHC world, thier site is just about the greatest trove of knowledge there is on that particular procedure, but the site often goes unnoticed.

Building bridges was, and is my desire. Making the community larger is my desire. There is a distinct possibility that all the knowledge here will be lost once the BB incorporates into one site when the "threaded view" becomes available, and it is activated.

The other reason was this

Forum dedicated to pre-1960 IHC vehicles

This is in the pre-amble to this forum. Since the majority of us are talking about 60's era vehicles, we are sort of violating one of the guidlines.

Discussing I-6 stuff is pointless in Techtalk. It's like walking into a bar full of tough guys with a parasol. You are gonna get noticed, but eventually, you will realize you are in the wrong room. ;)

A dedicated discussion forum will expand the knowledge base. Give it an archive, and hopefully spark re-newed interest in all IHC folk to save one of these fine engines, and also one of the fine machines they were installed in.

I would love it if all of the IHC stuff in the world was here, but that isn't gonna happen either. I don't own this site, and have no say in what stays or goes.

If the BB was mine, it would have forums for everything ever produced by IHC, and it would be even larger in scope than it is now.

But it isn't mine, I am just a trusted cog in it's gearbox.

I am sorry if my attempt to expand our family isn't to your liking, it could be that the J.I. idea won't work, and if it doesn't we will try something else.

But until then, I hope that you will contribute in some fashion, as your skils and knowledge are above reproach, and I value your opinion on many subjects.

Respectfully,

John

John Donnelly
12-17-2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Carl Wiese
Well,

I have registered on the JI board, but decided to post over here first. My Dad and I are getting a KB-5 on Saturday and I can't find any HP or Torque specs for the GD 233 on the web anywhere. I tried here, OldIHC.org and other source, but came up nill. Anybody got these specs?

Thanks

Carl

Carl,

I have the GD 233 stuff in one of my manuals. Please start a thread about the GD 233 in the forum when you have pics or info.

It could very well be that you will become our resident Guru on that engine. :D

Binderin',

John

T-Ruxx
12-17-2003, 02:20 PM
:( What do you mean I don't have the oldest rig in the club anymore! I guess the challenge is on! All kidding aside, congrats on the "new" aquisition, Greg

Carl Wiese
12-18-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Baradium
IIRC the red diamond engines aren't actually IH motors, but a contracted motor built by another company...

Ryan,

Your memory has not served you well in this case. RD's are 100% IH. The engine you may have been thinking of could be the Continental engine yit was the largest option for K-12, KB-12 and KB-14 Series and was designated by a R-6548. Looking stuff like this up is one of the perks of where I work!!

Carl

P.S. here is the KB

Jim Grammer
12-23-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Dave Nuenke
I'd be really interested in how the BD308 compares to the 264.

A little more info to make some sense out of this... The A120 4x4 is obviously a very rare truck, in fact I'm pretty sure that I stumbled upon one of the very last complete ones around. Thus the plan for this truck is to at least keep it looking correct. Thus, it will remain an IH 6 as no V8 was offered in the A.
Dave

Dave, I guess I'm lucky my early T-ette is a B, an SV is a 'correct' option for me! I even have a 266 with the early style t-stat housing and an unmarked block :D

Can't comment on the relative performance of the 308, never had one. I *do* know that the 282/308 are visually pretty different to an IH initiate. The average Joe wouldn't know, but an afficianado would bust you on the swap. The 282/308 is an earlier design, and has the triple diamond cast into the side of the block.

Jim Grammer
12-23-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Dave Nuenke
Oh, for those who are curious the truck also has a 4 speed and 4.30 gears.

Dave

If you can find the correct steering column, the 3 spd o/d is a *perfect* match to your gearing, you'd have an effective rear end ratio of 3.01 in o/d. The 264 would haul that baby comfortably down the road at 65mph with joy. If you keep the 4 speed, one of the little 2 speed auxiliaries with an o/d gear would work nicely(AT-501?). You have just enough wheelbase to squeeze one in there if I'm not mistaken...

John Donnelly
12-31-2004, 02:19 PM
A new reply to this thread, and one of the better ones in my mind.

Things have been germinating in the I-6 world since I started this thread so many moons ago. :)

The BG241 in my trail/exploring truck "Terror-All" has been performing yeoman duty of late, and as such, my impressions of the engine have grown from what I feel is "educated" to "ready to change what I feel needs changing".

Ignition is the big one, followed by some rather exotic induction/exhaustion work.

Items I am currently working on:

New camshaft grind - I have sent off 3 cams to "Delta Camshaft" in Tacoma Washington for evaluation of a better grind for power at freeway speeds. All of these cams will serve the Silver/Black/BG motor family.

Tubular exhaust - I am taking the plunge and buying a kit of reject bends from a mandrel bending shop to BUILD a set of headers for this engine. I found a shop to waterjet a manifold flange for me as well.

This will make putting a turbocharger on the engine far easier, and allow the turbo to benefit from the increased flow.

I am abandoning EFI. I remain unconvinced that it will actually perform better than anything else would. Propane injection is still my #1 favorite idea here expecially since carb icing has become a forefront winter problem, and my exhaust idea will only exacerbate it.

This is where I am going, what are the rest of you up to?

Binderin',

John

chris w
01-09-2005, 07:25 AM
I think this thread is sparking an interest in old ih. I started out with a scout
and now have a 56 and 57 c120. I was going to try and sell them so I don't
have to move them Oregon with me. However after reading through the thread I have since decided that they are moving too. I have a difficult time
keeping up with new posts etc on this site.Trying to keep track of content on two sites will be even more difficult. While some may not, I do appreciate the quality info, and the time it takes to share that info. thank you and keep up the good work.

Carl Wiese
01-10-2005, 02:21 PM
I think this thread is sparking an interest in old ih. I started out with a scout
and now have a 56 and 57 c120. I was going to try and sell them so I don't
have to move them Oregon with me. However after reading through the thread I have since decided that they are moving too. I have a difficult time
keeping up with new posts etc on this site.Trying to keep track of content on two sites will be even more difficult. While some may not, I do appreciate the quality info, and the time it takes to share that info. thank you and keep up the good work.

Where about in Oregon are you moving too??

Dave Nuenke
02-12-2005, 07:49 PM
I just brought home a new rig today, a 59 B120 4x4 with either a BD242 or BD264. My initial impressions are good, the motor runs very well, looks like the carb was just rebuilt and a complete tuneup was just done. I haven't really driven the truck much, just around the field a couple of times and on and off my trailer. It looks pretty mechanically solid, but I want to run in into the shop and check a bunch of things over before I start running it around a little bit.

Dave

John Donnelly
02-13-2005, 10:36 AM
I just brought home a new rig today, a 59 B120 4x4 with either a BD242 or BD264. My initial impressions are good, the motor runs very well, looks like the carb was just rebuilt and a complete tuneup was just done. I haven't really driven the truck much, just around the field a couple of times and on and off my trailer. It looks pretty mechanically solid, but I want to run in into the shop and check a bunch of things over before I start running it around a little bit.

Dave

Dave,

That sounds like a neat find! (of course it's a neat find, you found it!).

Pics man! PICS!!

Binderin',

John

Dave Nuenke
02-13-2005, 09:19 PM
Thanks John, I was going to try and get a few pics snapped today but I got caught up in rebuilding the rear diff on Matt's T'all. I'll get a couple in the next day or so and get them posted.


Dave

Dave Nuenke
02-14-2005, 04:15 PM
I got ut and got some pics taken today. I took one in front of the shop to try and show the relative size, but I don't think it worked as well as I hoped. From left to right in front of the shop is Smokey, my 4"+ lifted diesel traveler, the B120, Matt's diesel (waiting patiently to donate it's drivetrain before the body falls off), and then Gizmo, my 61 80 Cabtop.

Dave

Travis Weedman
06-25-2005, 10:54 AM
hi guys, simple question....what's the oil capacity for a blue diamond engine and is that a 269 ??? it's in a '42 M-3-4

Thank you

Travis Weedman

Travis Weedman
06-28-2005, 09:16 AM
OK, I put 10 quarts into this blue diamond...ran it for a couple minutes to fill the filter and then checked it. it appears to be a 2 gallon capacity since it was a bit over the full line.

Colin Rush
06-28-2005, 10:36 AM
Did you put detergent or non-detergent oil in it? I had heard from several owners of old military trucks that those motors were made before the days of non-detergent oil, and that if you put detergent oil in them, the oil filter will plug up almost instantly with all of the crud that has built up inside the motor. However, a friend of mine put detergent oil in a BG241 which had had non-detergent its whole life. He had to change the filter pretty regularly (waited for the oil pressure to drop off, and then changed it), but his engine is getting pretty clean inside now. I am thinking of doing that with a Red Diamond engine in an M-5H-6 that I am getting ready for a show. It never gets driven much anymore, but it is caked inside with gunk. It gets driven maybe 4 days out of the year,. If it gets new oil each year, then maybe it will be clean in a few years.

Travis Weedman
07-03-2005, 11:54 AM
The more gunk I remove from this old engine is this '42 truck the more I learn about it...I found the engine stamp finally after asking my mech friend where the I.D can be located. it's a BLD269B, under it it's stamped 1156. Is this the year this particular engine was made ???

Thank you to anybody that knows the answer

Travis Weedman
07-04-2005, 04:33 PM
"Did you put detergent or non-detergent oil in it?"

Ummm....I know that there is detergent and non detergent oil out there....I don't really know to tell you the truth. I changed it three times running it for 15 minutes between, I used Chevron oil 10w30 for all three. ( it was on sale by the case) i'm going to guess that it's a detergent type since it doesn't specify "non detergent" oil

there was some serious sludge in the bottom of the pan and probably still is since the oil came out pretty clean both times. on the last fill i installed the proper sock type filter into the can (napa 1002) to catch anything that may come loose. If i were a bit smarter i would have tried some diesel in with the oil instead of the engine flush stuff i purchased. I don't think it did much good.

i'll keep an eye on the filter and the oil pressure...thanks for the reply and the advice.

Colin Rush
07-23-2005, 07:24 PM
Travis,
I would say that the 1156 is the engine serial number. If it is the original engine (not swapped out later in its life), then based on its model year, 1156 is a good approximation of the serial numbers they were up to at that time. With the Red Diamond engines, there was a change in designation from the older name "FBC" to "RED", which eventually became "Red Diamond". On the Blue Diamonds, there was a change about that same time from "FAC" to "BLD" at about the same time period, 1941 or 1942. It is entirely possible you got one of the early BLD motors.

If you want a little more info on your engine and the others, there is an inline engine photo thread on the Just Internationals site here:

http://www.justinternationals.org/Binder-Bench/showthread.php?t=2403

That thread was started as a photo ID guide to help folks determine what they have, as well as lay out the history of the different inline engines. If you can, take a photo or two of your engine, and post it there, as there are no BLD motors show except as line drawings.

John Donnelly
07-25-2005, 01:33 PM
The more gunk I remove from this old engine is this '42 truck the more I learn about it...I found the engine stamp finally after asking my mech friend where the I.D can be located. it's a BLD269B, under it it's stamped 1156. Is this the year this particular engine was made ???

Thank you to anybody that knows the answer

That is a "Super Blue Diamond" engine, 269 cubic inches.

An excellent engine, and one that runs especially well on LPG according to our friends from Down-Under.

Binderin',

John

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
07-26-2005, 07:34 AM
Guys, i finally got the info on the 281-282 series of 6 cylinder IHC gasser engines, i was given a workshop manual for them when i purchased a traveler on friday night.

the 281 and 282 are very similar and share the same specs except for the exhaust manifold and exhaust valves.

3&13/16ths bore, 4&1/8ths stroke, max BHP 142 & 148 @ 3800 rpm respectively, nett BHP 117 & 123 @ 3300 rpm, 241 & 244 ftlbs torque @ 1800 rpm,net torque 233 ftlbs @ 1800 rpm & 236 ftlbs @ 1400-2000rpm, max reccommended revs 3400, compression 6.9:1, weight 704lbs with acc, oil change capacity incl filter 13.5 pints.

exhaust valves differ with slo-roto used in the 281 and sodium filled exhaust valves in the 282, the cam shaft has all different sized journals 2.110, 2.090,2.070 and 1.5005! ya wouldnt want to mix up cam bearings!

it is fitted with a bosch distributor and alternator, the carburettor is a single barrel BX bendix type.

cam timing - inlet opens 12 deg btdc, closes 38 deg atdc
- exhaust opens 55 deg btdc, closes 15 deg atdc



:D

diamond jim
08-06-2005, 11:06 PM
Hey, can one of you wise Binderites tell me what the points gap is for my SD220 in my '55 R-110? My NAPA guy couldn't find it, but had the parts in stock. Also, can I replace the points distributor to get rid of the points? What distributor do I need? I couldn't find it in the thread. Thanks

John Donnelly
08-06-2005, 11:55 PM
Hey, can one of you wise Binderites tell me what the points gap is for my SD220 in my '55 R-110? My NAPA guy couldn't find it, but had the parts in stock. Also, can I replace the points distributor to get rid of the points? What distributor do I need? I couldn't find it in the thread. Thanks

New points are gapped at .019"

Used points are gapped at .016".

You can get electronic ignition by switching our your points in favor of a Pertronix Ignitor, part # 1162 or 1162A depending on whether or not your distributor has vacuum advance.

Keep on Binderin',

John

David1970
08-09-2005, 01:19 PM
Help! I have a BG 241 in my 1100a I need a picture of the plug wire routing. I screwed mine up when I was changing the distributor cap. Ive got it running but it is missing. If someone has this motor, please help me out if you can. I really want to make the Nats this year with my Dad.
Thanks, David

John Donnelly
08-09-2005, 01:30 PM
Help! I have a BG 241 in my 1100a I need a picture of the plug wire routing. I screwed mine up when I was changing the distributor cap. Ive got it running but it is missing. If someone has this motor, please help me out if you can. I really want to make the Nats this year with my Dad.
Thanks, David

A picture will not help you. Years of distributors being pulled in and out can and will result in your #1 not necessarily being in the same place as someone else's.

The firing order is cast into the intake manifold. If you follow that sequence of numbers, you will get the firing order right.

Start by placing the engine at TDC, and then remove the distributor cap to see where the rotor is pointing. Wherever the contact on the rotor is at that time will be #1.

Place that wire on, then the others following the firing order sequence cast in the intake.

The cylinders are numbered front-to-back with the front cylinder being #1.

Let us know how it comes out.

Keep on Binderin',

John

David1970
08-13-2005, 07:35 PM
Got it! Thanks. We got it timed in and man does it purr. The vacuum contol was bad. I replaced that and all new cap and rotor wires and plugs. I had the old 1bbl Holley redone at the holley factory. Not cheap, but it NICE.

Actually its my dads truck. He's into his 70's now. He got the truck back in 1977 when I was 7. It has done a tremendous amount of work over the years. This was a WORK truck. It made it through all those years as an orphan needing some major parts, rearend, front axe,l gas tank....,when part were getting thin and before the internet. When dad retired in '95 we restored it. It got used less and less and sat for the last year with little use. Needless to say it needed a good tune up. I've learned a great deal from all the posts and got the parts I needed from the internet and posting here. Thanks so much. Going back to the Nats this year will be great. Dad won a plaque in 95 with his truck. Thanks, David

Rob Peterson
08-23-2005, 10:10 AM
I adjusted the valves on my BD-240 while hot, per the manual.

The engine seems to run really good and I get good oil pressure even at idle, however I notice a bit of valvetrain noise from the engine. As this is the first solid-lifter engine I have ever owned/operated, I was just curious if some sort of mild 'ticking' or 'clattering' sounds are normal.

It doesn't sound unduly loud, and perhaps because the engine is "inside the cab" of my Metro I notice it more. Any thoughts?

John Donnelly
08-23-2005, 11:05 AM
I adjusted the valves on my BD-240 while hot, per the manual.

The engine seems to run really good and I get good oil pressure even at idle, however I notice a bit of valvetrain noise from the engine. As this is the first solid-lifter engine I have ever owned/operated, I was just curious if some sort of mild 'ticking' or 'clattering' sounds are normal.

It doesn't sound unduly loud, and perhaps because the engine is "inside the cab" of my Metro I notice it more. Any thoughts?

The ticking is normal. With the kind of clearances we are supposed to run, it surprises me that they all don't rattle like old sewing machines truth be told. I get a mild ticking/clicking from my BG241, that is it.

I check the valve adjustment, and so far, none of them have moved, so I haven't needed to re-clearance them.

Binderin',

John

buzzman72
09-08-2005, 11:12 AM
John, I've been a Binder six owner since forever, and I'm in the process of working the HEI conversion on a big-cap distributor from an '82 [I think] Chebbie 250 with the remote coil. I've pretty much got the bottom end of the shaft and housing handled...thought I'd pass along the info that, rather than cannibalize your original distributor for the Delco # 1912218 collar, the Tractor Supply chain carries a Hillman 1/2"x 5/8"x1-1/8" bronze bushing that, once shortened and drilled for a pin, should substitute nicely.

But I'm not sure whether I've got enough mechanical advance worked in, after reversing and re-slotting the plate under the rotor. Anybody got any pics on THAT end of the conversion? And, for THAT matter, anybody got any pics of the modifications for the Olds vacuum advance? On my distributor, it looks like the reversed vacuum advance location will bring it awfully close to the end connector on the module...any advice there?

I'm also looking and thinking another direction. Since the Chebbie and AMC six distributors are virtually identical, other than the drive gears...and since AMC used the Motorcraft Duraspark distributor in the late '70's thru the mid '80's...has anyone [oher than me] tried to do a Duraspark conversion for the Binder sixes?

[BTW, John...check yer PM's over @ JIH]...

Any helpful information will be greatly appreciated.

Jack Bailey
09-18-2005, 11:24 PM
Guys
Is it true that the BD264 and the BG265 are the same engine. I need a set of 30 over pistons for a BD264. Also is the front balancer the sames as earlier smaller engines as I need one as well.
Thanks Jack

John Donnelly
09-19-2005, 07:09 AM
Guys
Is it true that the BD264 and the BG265 are the same engine. I need a set of 30 over pistons for a BD264. Also is the front balancer the sames as earlier smaller engines as I need one as well.
Thanks Jack

Yes it is true. For some odd reason IH chose to rename and change the color of the engine in it's final year of production for trucks.

Finding pistons for a BD/BG 264/265 isn't easy. Zollner was the primary manufacturer, and they ceased a few years ago in the construction of new pistons. You may have to go through EGGE Machine in Cali for a set if you are bent on .030" over pistons.

It is actually far easier, and better to re-use the STD pistons and sleeve the block if it is needed in my experience. 99 times out of 100 the pistons that were in the engine are re-usable and show very little wear on high-mileage 264/265's. The sad thing is most 264/265's end up with a rod through the side of them or folks over-rev them so much that the engine cores are junk. It is rare occurance to see an old 264/265 that has lived to just wear out it's rings and bearings.

I attribute this to the fact that the engine is a pretty good performer according to most, and they run so well for so long that folks just beat on them harder and harder without a care for maintenance.

Sorry I got wordy,

John

Jack Bailey
09-19-2005, 03:03 PM
John
Is it easy to find std pistons as the block that I am looking at buying is already 20 over and 10 under on the crank
Jack

John Donnelly
09-19-2005, 03:18 PM
John
Is it easy to find std pistons as the block that I am looking at buying is already 20 over and 10 under on the crank
Jack

Jack,

NO pistons for the 264 are easy to find. I guess I should have worded that better in the previous post. Sleeving your block to re-use your .020 over pistons is what should be done in this case.

Hastings still makes rings for the 264 and NAPA still lists them as well. I would not have your crankshaft re-done unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, and I would have it "welded up" and then returned to .STD instead of turned smaller. Remember, you only have 4 main bearings, and while they are large, the smaller you make the journals, the more "flex" the crankshaft will have, if you tax the motor doing heavy work, it will fail more easily.

Crankshafts are another item that get a lot of unecessary work on IH engine in my experience. If the journals are in specification, and not damaged, a good micropolish is all they should need. This doesn't remove enough material to warrant undersize bearings beyond what you already have... or shouldn't.

If this truck is a restoration, and not intended to go back to work for a living, then a basic rebuild is more than adequate in my opinion.

Binderin',

John

Rob Peterson
09-21-2005, 01:35 PM
One question leads to a couple others, and back again:

1. Was red ever used as an original color for a BD-series engine? From what I have read here, I thought they were painted a color that corresponds with the series, e.g. Black Diamond = Black paint (or does BD = Blue Diamond?). Anyway, my BD-240 is painted red. Where the paint is flaking, there's no other color beneath, so it doesn't LOOK like a repaint.

2. If this is a rebuilt engine, was it a common practice among old-time rebuilders to stamp oversize bores on the outside of the block somewhere?

3. The title on my truck indicates it's a model year 1965. Given that the BD-series engines were produced only through 1962, I'm wondering whether the original owner (U.S. Air Force) swapped engines at one time from a stockpile of BD-240's. Which points back to the original question: were IHC factory rebuild/replacement engines painted red?

I've checked, and no line set information was retained for the older "Metro" vans. I'm trying to figure out whether my title is correct and/or whether the engine is original or not.

John Donnelly
09-21-2005, 01:59 PM
One question leads to a couple others, and back again:

1. Was red ever used as an original color for a BD-series engine? From what I have read here, I thought they were painted a color that corresponds with the series, e.g. Black Diamond = Black paint (or does BD = Blue Diamond?). Anyway, my BD-240 is painted red. Where the paint is flaking, there's no other color beneath, so it doesn't LOOK like a repaint.

I think we should find a way to keep the "BD's" straight. There was a time when Blue Diamonds were "BLD" and I think we should get back to that here so folks don't get confused. Red appears to have been used, yes.

2. If this is a rebuilt engine, was it a common practice among old-time rebuilders to stamp oversize bores on the outside of the block somewhere?
IH did on factory re-mans, I don't think it was ever "rebuilder policy".

3. The title on my truck indicates it's a model year 1965. Given that the BD-series engines were produced only through 1962, I'm wondering whether the original owner (U.S. Air Force) swapped engines at one time from a stockpile of BD-240's. Which points back to the original question: were IHC factory rebuild/replacement engines painted red?

The Blue Diamond (BLD) was discontinued in 62' not the Black Diamond (BD). IH remans were painted GREEN from what I have seen. Why? Not a clue.

I've checked, and no line set information was retained for the older "Metro" vans. I'm trying to figure out whether my title is correct and/or whether the engine is original or not.

I would venture a guess and say your engine IS original. The 240 appears to have been the standard engine for the Metro over the years with bigger and smaller being optional.

Binderin',

John

Colin Rush
09-21-2005, 02:10 PM
There was indeed a Greed Diamond green, and a Blue Diamond blue, in addition to the Red Diamond red, which is the standard IH Red #50. I have a copy of a Humke catalog from the early 1960s, and their paint manufacturer shows all three colors blue, green, and red). I am assuming that the SD motors were silver, and the BD motors were black, too. I have seen on the BG motors a sort of a greenish grey paint, which I am speculating is the same color paint that John mentioned for the remans. Probably some paint that IH could get cheaply.

I suspect that someone rebuilt or replaced the engine you have at one time, and used IH Red to paint it, much like many people use Chevy orange or black or Ford blue or grey to paint them nowadays, and for the same reason, namely that it was easy to find and on the shelf. Folks think "IH" and they think "Red". They would not have been the first. Check out the purty motor photo posted on the 6-Banger forum on the JI site.

Jim Grammer
09-21-2005, 10:18 PM
One question leads to a couple others, and back again:

1. Was red ever used as an original color for a BD-series engine? From what I have read here, I thought they were painted a color that corresponds with the series, e.g. Black Diamond = Black paint (or does BD = Blue Diamond?). Anyway, my BD-240 is painted red. Where the paint is flaking, there's no other color beneath, so it doesn't LOOK like a repaint.

For the years where there was overlap between Blue Diamond and Silver Diamond/Black Diamond/Blue Grey, the Blue Diamonds were 282/308CI and very different motors harkening back to earlier designs. Witness the 'triple diamond' logo on the block casting for instance.

I have not seen an OEM red painted BD engine, either in a truck or in the sales/promo/engineering literature. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, but the 'official' Black Diamond engine color was black.

Keep in mind that a rebuilt engine could easily have had every last bit of original paint removed when the bits were tanked/cleaned.

2. If this is a rebuilt engine, was it a common practice among old-time rebuilders to stamp oversize bores on the outside of the block somewhere?

Define 'common' ;) Some marked them, some didn't. I have one with a very spiffy riveted-on aluminum spec plate from the rebuilder.

3. The title on my truck indicates it's a model year 1965. Given that the BD-series engines were produced only through 1962, I'm wondering whether the original owner (U.S. Air Force) swapped engines at one time from a stockpile of BD-240's

Many things are possible here. Your truck may have been titled at any point after the USAF took delivery clear through when it was de-mil'd. The year may have even beed anyone's best guess at the time it received a civilian title. I suppose it's also possible that there was significant latency in the the supply chain to the Metro assembly facility, although I'd suspect a build date/title disconnect first and foremost. In the realm of pure speculation, Crismon notes that the last gasp of 'round body' Metro production was a USAF order for 603 units in the summer of '65, so perhaps there was a little 'floor sweeping' used to complete the order?? :eek:


I've checked, and no line set information was retained for the older "Metro" vans. I'm trying to figure out whether my title is correct and/or whether the engine is original or not.

Bummer, I guess the line sets never made it from CT to corporate to be microfiched. Thanks for confirming what I've long suspected :( Chances are you will never know a definitive answer to either question...

Rob Peterson
09-22-2005, 01:43 PM
Jim, I've been meaning to ask: you've got a Metro, right? What year / model is yours?

Travis Weedman
09-23-2005, 11:19 AM
My 42 M-3L-4 has a blue diamond 269 in it...this much I know for sure. My question is was this engine produced when this truck was built ??? My thinking is that the original engine has been replaced. Somebody set me straight...please.

MV56
11-28-2005, 09:04 PM
Hello out there. i have had my 56 s120 for about a year and half, and the internet for about a week and a half. i learned more last night about my truck... anyway i read all the posts and replys, very well done and a sincere thanks from me. im pretty sure i have a bd240,with a t9 and a np201. i really lucked out with this truck. i drove it away, very satisfied with the deal. ebrake liner, one headlight and a rigged horn cap got me a sticker. and shes been my everyday ride since. i found a solenoid, a shop did my starter and i bought a new generator. the fuel pump is going and the brakes need a little lookin at. the body is solid overall. id love to get her back to the glory days, someday. all this new info is great, is there any info on VIN #'s out there, mine starts with USN and the oil filter, a big stand up type says "military style filter" around the cover. any info on this is appreciated.

John Donnelly
11-29-2005, 08:59 AM
My 42 M-3L-4 has a blue diamond 269 in it...this much I know for sure. My question is was this engine produced when this truck was built ??? My thinking is that the original engine has been replaced. Somebody set me straight...please.

That engine was available when your truck was produced, and it is highly likely that the one in there is the original engine, or an OEM replacement.

-John

John Donnelly
12-05-2005, 12:22 PM
Things to consider when overhauling your SD, BD, or BG engine.


Don't let your machine shop tell you parts aren't available, because it ain't so.
Cylinder bores can be sleeved if needed, so don't let that deter you from salvaging an engine block that has damage in the cylinder bores.
Performance parts are available, cams, roller rockers, EFI, etc.
While L-6 IH engines are smooth runners, recent experience has shown me that substantial material removal from the recprocating assembly is needed to achieve true "balance" in these engines. You should consider this when overhauling.
The only parts not available new for these engines are the camshafts (regrinds are done from your core), and Lifters (these are rebuilt)
The hard to source piston information circulating the internet only appears to affect the BD 264 and BG 265. NOS stock must be sourced or your old pistons re-used when overhauling these engines. Pistons may be available from tractor/ag equipment, but I have no hard data on that yet.


Just some interesting facts I have discovered in the last few months.

Binderin',

John

Rob Peterson
12-06-2005, 09:10 AM
John,

From post #105:

Tubular exhaust - I am taking the plunge and buying a kit of reject bends from a mandrel bending shop to BUILD a set of headers for this engine. I found a shop to waterjet a manifold flange for me as well.

Have you taken a stab at this yet?

I'm guessing that a place like Stan's Headers would not undertake this due to the relatively low volume, but has anyone breached this idea with them yet?

John Donnelly
12-06-2005, 09:32 AM
John,

From post #105:



Have you taken a stab at this yet?

I'm guessing that a place like Stan's Headers would not undertake this due to the relatively low volume, but has anyone breached this idea with them yet?

I hadn't approached Stan's because of the distance between us. I would want to observe the process from cradle to grave if he was willing to do this.

Stan would probably do this for us, if for no other reason than he is known for taking on the stuff nobody else is interested in.

I haven't had the time lately to pursue this idea of mine, mostly due to family needs of late.

It IS something I want to pursue however as the number of good IH L-6 manifolds out there is getting smaller and smaller. :(

-John

Daniel E McAmoil
12-20-2005, 07:15 AM
. SD's are easy(argent silver)

The SD 220 in my 1951 was a tan color with a touch of yellow.

Sodbust

Daniel E McAmoil
12-20-2005, 07:21 AM
Hello all.

I have a SD 220 in my 1951 L110 pu, and I would gess its got 300,000 miles on it.

The engines I have a weakness of is to RD 450, 501.. A slow turning torker. They would spin up to 2800, but did there work at 1800..

In a R190 1958,, I would pull a 28f grain trailer with it. 65,000 gross weight. The max power was from 1600 to 1950rpms.. Anything over that, they just suck huge amounts of gas and made noise.

My dream is to take one of the big boys and make a open engine street rod out of it with a beefed up torkflite... ( 2 speed rear axle)


Sodbust

Steven@AZ
12-22-2005, 09:26 AM
. SD's are easy(argent silver)

The SD 220 in my 1951 was a tan color with a touch of yellow.

Sodbust

I'm confused. You say SD is easy (argent silver) and then say yours is tan/yellow? :confused:

FWIW my 51 L-120 has the SD 220 and it is a tan color, guarantee it is original as I am the second owner and good friends with the original owner's 75 year old son...

John Donnelly
12-22-2005, 11:17 AM
I'm confused. You say SD is easy (argent silver) and then say yours is tan/yellow? :confused:

FWIW my 51 L-120 has the SD 220 and it is a tan color, guarantee it is original as I am the second owner and good friends with the original owner's 75 year old son...

The correct engine color is a long-debated subject. I have found SD engines that were silver, black, tan, blue, green, yellow, and grease-encrusted.

There appears to be no easy answer to this question, and I have searched paperwork, the web, long-time IH salemsmen and employees, and back yard mechanics to on avail on what the OEM color for the engine was.

I would love to see a pic of this original SD engine, in High Resolution so the color comes out a close as possible to actually being there.

-John

Steven@AZ
12-22-2005, 12:26 PM
I would love to see a pic of this original SD engine, in High Resolution so the color comes out a close as possible to actually being there.

-John

I will be home in a few days and can take some high res pics to post up... it hasn't been cleaned up for a few years and is in a dark shed right now, but the new digital cam should get a clear picture. I will talk to my friend again to be 100% sure it is original as well.

Vern0n
01-17-2006, 08:29 AM
OK, here's my situation. I have a 1949 KB3, with a big hole in the side of the block. I have been given an engine in a 1957 A series tanker truck. I don't know anything about this engine. It has the distributer above the rocker cover. The truck is wrecked and I can't tell if the engine is stuck. It hit hard enough to break the bell housing and water pump. I want to put this engine in the KB, will it fit? Is it worth pulling from the wrecked truck?

Steven@AZ
01-17-2006, 11:15 AM
I would love to see a pic of this original SD engine, in High Resolution so the color comes out a close as possible to actually being there.

-John

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/smgussey/Farmall/engine4.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/smgussey/Farmall/engine2.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/smgussey/Farmall/engine1.jpg

Colin Rush
01-17-2006, 08:47 PM
Vernon,
Is the engine in your KB3 a flathead motor? Or does it also have the distributor up high? If it is high like the one in the tanker, then it is a Blue Diamond, and will fit. If you have a flathead, then you should get another flathead (Green Diamond), although I personally believe that a newer Silver, Black, or Blue-Grey will fit too. Those have the distributor down lower. See the photos of the engine just before mine to see a Silver Diamond.

I cannot just now remember when the GRD engines were discontinued, but I believe it was in 1949 or 1950. If so, I would guess you have either a BLD or an SD motor. Again, the distributor location is the key.

Can you get a photo posted here? If you e-mail it to me, I can post it in the next couple days for you. I was going to post a link to the Just International 6-Banger Picture thread so you could ID the motors you have, but for some reason their website is down or moved or something.

John Donnelly
01-17-2006, 09:28 PM
OK, here's my situation. I have a 1949 KB3, with a big hole in the side of the block. I have been given an engine in a 1957 A series tanker truck. I don't know anything about this engine. It has the distributer above the rocker cover. The truck is wrecked and I can't tell if the engine is stuck. It hit hard enough to break the bell housing and water pump. I want to put this engine in the KB, will it fit? Is it worth pulling from the wrecked truck?

Does the engine look like this one?

http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/data/503/6Big_Blue.JPG

http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/data/503/6BigBlueRt_1_-med.JPG

If so, that is a "Blue Diamond" engine, and a very good motor indeed.

Colin,

All the pics from the 6 cylinder forum on JI are in my photopost archive here on the BB now, just FYI.

Binderin',

John

Colin Rush
01-17-2006, 10:05 PM
Wow, that shore is a purty motor. That is the best photo of a BLD I have seen. I know of a certain BG241 that will rival that BLD in the looks department.

So, indeed, the JI site is down? I am glad you got those photos. There was a lot of good info there. By any chance, did you get the 4-banger photos too?

John Donnelly
01-17-2006, 10:18 PM
Wow, that shore is a purty motor. That is the best photo of a BLD I have seen. I know of a certain BG241 that will rival that BLD in the looks department.

So, indeed, the JI site is down? I am glad you got those photos. There was a lot of good info there. By any chance, did you get the 4-banger photos too?

JI can be found at www.justih.org

They didn't go away, there was just a change of management.

-John

Vern0n
01-18-2006, 04:21 PM
That would be what the engine looks like that I was given, except not near as pretty. How hard if it to get parts for it? I know it is taller then the green diamond, is it longer?

John Donnelly
01-18-2006, 05:22 PM
That would be what the engine looks like that I was given, except not near as pretty. How hard if it to get parts for it? I know it is taller then the green diamond, is it longer?

Yes, and yes, but it will fit.

It is easier to get parts for than the GRD will be..... but then again, what else do you need besides a set of plugs, points, and generic L-6 wires?

A carb kit? You will need the carburetter number.... the application doesn't matter... I doubt very much that you will need to find hard engine parts for it, and if you do, ask here... asking a counter clown will just upset you. We can provide all the part numbers you need once we know what they are.

-John

Colin Rush
01-19-2006, 10:41 PM
Vernon,
I just now answered your e-mail, and then saw that John had answered it more or less the same way.

Due to the length and height difference, I would think it would make more sense to try something like a 241 or 265 motor. Not sure, but I would think they would drop right in. I base this on the way the GRD fits the L-series at John's house. If the GRD will fit in a truck that was designed for an SD motor, then the SD (and the related BD and BG engines) ought to fit the older trucks too. To make the BLD fit, wouldn't you have to move the radiator forward, and lift the body a bit (similar to a Scout body lift) to make clearance between the hood and the valve cover? Yay or nay, John?

John Donnelly
01-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Vernon,
I just now answered your e-mail, and then saw that John had answered it more or less the same way.

Due to the length and height difference, I would think it would make more sense to try something like a 241 or 265 motor. Not sure, but I would think they would drop right in. I base this on the way the GRD fits the L-series at John's house. If the GRD will fit in a truck that was designed for an SD motor, then the SD (and the related BD and BG engines) ought to fit the older trucks too. To make the BLD fit, wouldn't you have to move the radiator forward, and lift the body a bit (similar to a Scout body lift) to make clearance between the hood and the valve cover? Yay or nay, John?

The flywheel housing is the key. If he has a GRD233 in there, it more than likely has the same flywheel housing as a Blue Diamond engine, and the BLD would be the better swap choice in a KB. Since the KB is about as light as a lead balloon, the BLD is hands-down a superior choice for a large truck.

We need a shot of the GRD engines flywheel housing. Are the frame mounts angled or flat?

-John

Colin Rush
01-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Vernon,
I have a 1951 L-series pickup that originally had an SD-220 in it. Someone pulled it and put a GRD213 in it. John and I went out and looked at it over the weekend. The bellhousings are interchangeable, and if you keep the bellhousing, the GRD engines are interchangeable with the SD220, the BD motors, and the BG motors. The front motor mount is in exactly the same spot, and everything bolts right up.

Also, the Blue Diamond you are getting for free will not fit your truck, due to the height and length. It will fit the K/KB5 and larger, but not the smaller trucks.

John Donnelly
01-24-2006, 10:17 AM
Vernon,

Also, the Blue Diamond you are getting for free will not fit your truck, due to the height and length. It will fit the K/KB5 and larger, but not the smaller trucks.

And it is my mistake, for some reason I thought you had a KB-8. I think I need to remember to wear my glasses when I work with the computer! :D

-John

Travis Weedman
02-21-2006, 07:18 AM
I found something interesting resting in the pan just behind the radiator of my '42...(bld 269) it looks a lot like a harmonic balancer that fell off the crankshaft. I felt around on the front of the crank and felt no bold holes where the thing mounts and looked at some pictures on this site of such an engine and don't see one on it. this finding really has me wondering what this part is and where it's from.

It is made of heavy iron, round, has a rounded back with a shoulder like it should fit right in the dish of the crank pulley. the front of it has a slot about an inch or so with with two holes..one at each end. :confused:

hmmmmm...

Travis

Rob Peterson
02-21-2006, 07:37 AM
it looks a lot like a harmonic balancer that fell off the crankshaft

Yes, it sounds like the harmonic balancing ring fell off the crank pulley. The ring is bonded to the pulley with rubber, and when the rubber fails, the ring comes loose.

I just had the harmonic balancer for my BD-240 rebuilt at Dale Manufacturing - Salem, Oregon 503-364-8685 ( http://www.dalemfg.com ) and was very happy with the service and results.

A PO on my truck had WELDED the ring back on the pulley with two marginal spot welds, and the ring was off-center, to boot. GRRRRRRR! :mad:
Problem solved, though. :)

Travis Weedman
02-22-2006, 08:02 AM
Rob, Thank you very much for the reply. yes, this is logical now as I felt around on the crank pulley and and it felt like old leather of sorts but "old rubber" is really what it feels like.

well crud..it isn't like I can just send it to the guy in Salem to have new rubber made for it and stick it back on...it wouldn't be in balance anymore, or does it even matter that much if it's on there or not. hmmmm...what to do ???



Yes, that was a question for anybody to answer. :)

Rob Peterson
02-22-2006, 08:20 AM
it isn't like I can just send it to the guy in Salem to have new rubber made for it and stick it back on

Actually, yes you can. That's what I did. He gives everything a media blast to clean up the parts. The ring and the pulley are then clamped together and a high strength silicone rubber is poured in place. After setup, he balances the new unit (mine had a new balancing hole drilled as a result).

Between my "new" balancer and a Pertronix setup, my engine has never run smoother. I could probably balance a nickel on the valve cover at idle. :)

I'd be more concerned running the engine WITHOUT having the balancing ring in place. The whole purpose is to relieve vibrations which can lead to a cracked crankshaft.

John Donnelly
02-22-2006, 10:05 AM
Rob, Thank you very much for the reply. yes, this is logical now as I felt around on the crank pulley and and it felt like old leather of sorts but "old rubber" is really what it feels like.

well crud..it isn't like I can just send it to the guy in Salem to have new rubber made for it and stick it back on...it wouldn't be in balance anymore, or does it even matter that much if it's on there or not. hmmmm...what to do ???



Yes, that was a question for anybody to answer. :)

What Rob said.

The Harmonic balancer is very important to your engine. But it doesn't need to be balanced with any portion of the engine to make it work correctly. Just sent it to the guy Rob mentioned, and you will be in business when it returns and you install it.

Do not run your engine without a balancer.

-John

Travis Weedman
02-22-2006, 03:11 PM
OK OK OK...I understand now, sometimes you have to beat me with it for me to catch on. So, send both the pulley and the balancer to Salem and he'll clean it, pour new rubber and mate the two,,,well duhhh.

Thanks guys

Travis Weedman

Joseph Johnson
03-17-2006, 08:38 PM
Hello to all you guys that know your IHC stuff. I come to you in need of info. I have a Pettibone Super 6-33 Cary-Lift. I am told that it is a 1971. However I can not verify. I do know that it has a BD-220 engine. Which is why I am here. It blew it's head gasket. Now NAPA can get me a gasket set, but I have to figure out it is a tilt vavle or not. Past that, since I have to tear it down that far I would like to give it new bearings and rings. Can anyone tell me where I can find bearings(rod/main) and rings for it? Also the book I have for the engine doesn't give me the torque for the head bolts. Anyone know that? Thank you, and I appreciate any help you can throw my way.

John Donnelly
03-18-2006, 10:52 AM
Hello to all you guys that know your IHC stuff. I come to you in need of info. I have a Pettibone Super 6-33 Cary-Lift. I am told that it is a 1971. However I can not verify. I do know that it has a BD-220 engine. Which is why I am here. It blew it's head gasket. Now NAPA can get me a gasket set, but I have to figure out it is a tilt vavle or not. Past that, since I have to tear it down that far I would like to give it new bearings and rings. Can anyone tell me where I can find bearings(rod/main) and rings for it? Also the book I have for the engine doesn't give me the torque for the head bolts. Anyone know that? Thank you, and I appreciate any help you can throw my way.

Tilt valve is easiest to identify by simply pulling off the valve cover and looking at the valves. If the valves and the pushrods are parallel to one another, then you have an early "straight valve" engine.

If you have the valves canted at an angle, then you have the tilt valve engine.

Gaskets, bearings, rings and other such items are all available new at NAPA. Check our our part number thread to get you started.

-John

Joseph Johnson
03-25-2006, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the info. I got what I need from NAPA. I just need to find out what the torque for the head bolts are? Sequence is no problem. I just can't find the torque anywhere. Any leads. Thanks in advance! Joseph

Joseph Johnson
03-25-2006, 08:47 AM
Thanks for the info. I got what I need from NAPA. I just need to find out what the torque for the head bolts are? Sequence is no problem. I just can't find the torque anywhere. Any leads. Thanks in advance! Joseph
I failed to say for anyone that did not see my earlier post. This is for a tilt valve BD-220. Thanks.....

Jim Grammer
03-26-2006, 11:22 PM
85-95 ft lbs

dlsoutdoor
03-27-2006, 05:02 PM
Hey guys am new to this and hate to interupt, but I just purchased a 47 KB 2, all original and in what I think is good shape. I can tell you it has a flathead 6 in but know nothing about IH motors. Could anyone tell what it might be and where I could shop manual on it. I am planning a complete restoration on truck and want to remain all stock. Thanks dlsoutdoor

John Donnelly
03-27-2006, 05:08 PM
Hey guys am new to this and hate to interupt, but I just purchased a 47 KB 2, all original and in what I think is good shape. I can tell you it has a flathead 6 in but know nothing about IH motors. Could anyone tell what it might be and where I could shop manual on it. I am planning a complete restoration on truck and want to remain all stock. Thanks dlsoutdoor

Flathead?

GRD 213 or 233. The famous "Green Diamond" engine. :)

Books and service guides are available at Binder Books www.binderbooks.com

-John

dlsoutdoor
03-27-2006, 05:16 PM
Thanks John, got pictures but haven't figured out how to post them yet.

John Donnelly
03-27-2006, 06:14 PM
Thanks John, got pictures but haven't figured out how to post them yet.

Our FAQ has guidelines on how to post pictures. Since you aren't a Supporting Member you will have to upload them to a web based facility like www.photobucket.com and then link them with IMG tags around the URL's for the pics.

Search using advanced search under "posting pics" we have lots of information on how this is done posted all over the board.

Keep on Binderin',

John

dlsoutdoor
03-27-2006, 08:29 PM
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j20/dlsoutdoor/DSC00079.jpg http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j20/dlsoutdoor/DSC00072.jpg http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j20/dlsoutdoor/DSC00071.jpg

hope this works

dlsoutdoor
03-29-2006, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the help I found the books and also found the numbers it is a GRD 214 Dale

Travis Weedman
04-09-2006, 10:22 PM
Dale, WOW, that's nice. I have a flathead in my 44 stude..it runs well, I don't know anything about a flathead engine and hope I never have to find out.

That's an awesome starter truck. You're a lucky guy.

Clem Seivert
05-14-2006, 07:05 PM
I am heading out tommorow to look at a 1956 half ton. Owner says it is a 6 ,what engine options were available in 56? In earlier posts I saw referance to 282 301 engines. The IH 560 tractor had a 282 a 706 had a 301, these were built 1958 to 1964. would these engines ever used in pickups

buzzman72
05-14-2006, 10:03 PM
Clem, the IH gas ag engines of that era were C-series, as in C-221, C-264, C-301, C-291 [and diesels were D-282, D-301, etc.]. Most C-series engines, except the 301, were sleeved engines, IIRC...while the corresponding BD-series truck engines were not sleeved.

Some of us out here in Binderland are trying to find a way to modify the C-series distributors--with tach drive--to the BD- and SD-series engines, but I haven't got my hands on the C-series distributor yet, and the guys who have say it can't be done [I'm hard-headed, and I'll have to prove it to myself].

Bit there were several differences in the ag engines and the truck engines...most noticably the lack of heater ftiitngs on the ag water pumps, and the cast-iron valve covers on some of the ag engines. Might be able to make it work, though...if they can put an SV 304 in a Farmall H, I suppose anything can be MADE to fit...just depends on how much work you're willing to do.

Gary Roth
05-20-2006, 12:27 PM
Can someone please tell me the bore x stroke of the Silver Diamond 260 and the Black Diamond 264 ?

Vern0n
05-23-2006, 07:59 AM
OK, here's my situation. I have a 49 KB3. Engine has a hole in the side of the block and I can see the wristpin. I'm in the process of buying a 6 cylinder engine out of a 69 IH pickup, (distributer mounted low). The guy wants $50. The engine is locked up, so I know I'll need to go through it. I plan to use my truck to haul some heavy loads, so I need to know what modes I can do to this engine to get MORE POWER, and keep some gas milage. How much can I bore this unknown CID engine? Can I use chebby pistons? Put in bigger valves? Differnt cam? I have a turbo laying around off who knows what, (maybe I'm getting carried away). yes I know I can get what I want cheaper from a 304, but I like the looks of a 6 under the hood of these old trucks. Am I the only one who has interest in hopping up the 6? I know I will go the electronic ignition route. Amy ideas out there?

Rob Peterson
05-23-2006, 09:18 AM
I'm in the process of buying a 6 cylinder engine out of a 69 IH pickup,

If it's a 1969, wouldn't that be one of the AMC 6's ? Are you planning on swapping the trans, too? I think if you went with this engine you'd also have to find a matching bellhousing & trans setup. If you're considering going this far, perhaps find a Jeep 6 with FI and a OD trans. On the other hand, if you want to use your existing trans, perhaps consider an IHC BD- or BG-series 6 cylinder engine. (These will bolt up to the existing GD- bellhousing. (right, fans???)

Vern0n
05-24-2006, 07:21 AM
I'm not sure, but I don't think they put the AMC engine in the trucks, only the scouts. Any way it's the silver diamond engine. I have pictures but know no way to post them.

Carl Wiese
05-24-2006, 10:20 AM
I'm not sure, but I don't think they put the AMC engine in the trucks, only the scouts. Any way it's the silver diamond engine. I have pictures but know no way to post them.

Yes they DID put AMC's in the pickups from 69-75. I have seen them in all year ranges as well. A good buddy of mine has a 1300 with a RA-15 rear end, Dana 70 front 4 speed and a 232. Came from the factory like that :confused: :confused:

buzzman72
06-09-2006, 12:36 AM
IIRC, the SD/BD/BG engines had the distributor and plugs on the drivers side, and the manifold on the passenger side...while the AMC engines had the distributor and plugs on the passenger side, and the manifold on the driver's side...easy, one-glance way to tell 'em apart.

jeff campbell
06-09-2006, 09:52 AM
gotta 70-? 1300 4spd,dually w/a 258 i think in it from factory.say's "thrifty six" on the air cleaner.jeff

Vern0n
06-13-2006, 06:48 AM
OK, I bought the engine. It's a 68 BG 241. Had one piston stuck real bad. Caroded so bad it cratered the top of the piston. Funny thing is, the bore isn't pitted. Now I need to find anther piston, or a set of over sized piston. I'm sure Auto Zone has these on the shelf.
My plans are to put this in my 49 KB3. I plan to change out the rear end to something with lower gears. I want a 4 speed trans with a granny gear because I plan to use this truck to pull some heavy loads. Overdrive would be great, but not likely to find one. What trans would you recomend?

Jim Grammer
06-13-2006, 02:31 PM
If you can locate a 2WD T-19(available in 'wide' or 'close' ratios, see the FAQ) you get the benefit of a 1st gear synchro. Otherwise the venerable T-98 is common and plentiful. I've lost count of how many T-98's I have :confused:

Vern0n
07-11-2006, 06:28 AM
OK, two more questions. How do you tell the CID of a 57 BLD engine without pulling the head? Also has anyone ever made a plate to bolt to the back of a six so they could bolt a cheby or ferd bellhousing to the engine to get a better trans choice?

Colin Rush
07-11-2006, 08:47 PM
The displacement should be stamped on the side of the block on a boss.

The Ismails have an adaptor kit to bolt a GM 700R4 behind the IHC engine. It is designed for the V8, but they have the same bolt pattern, so it should work on that too.

Rob Peterson
07-11-2006, 09:43 PM
The Ismails have an adaptor kit to bolt a GM 700R4 behind the IHC engine

Is that the http://www.ihonly.com site?

I searched there but couldn't find a reference to adapter plates. Are these the Blackwood or Wilcap or (???) adapters?

Dave Ball
08-08-2006, 02:40 AM
Hi I have a 1944 Red Diamond 361 anyone have a modern spark plug cross over for this motor?

Vern0n
08-11-2006, 07:32 AM
I'm sure glad there are some six cylinder guys here. I know everybody likes the V8's, but I find the 6's more interesting. Anyway, I bought some NOS pistons to put in my 68 BG241. The pistons are quite differant, but I believe they will work. My old pistons are almost flat top, except one half is 1/4 inch higher. The pistons I bought have a very pronounced dome, but are meant for a slant chamber head, (which is what I have). The box they came in said they are for a BD240. The BD240 and the BG241 both have the same bore and stroke. What was the differance from a BD and a BG? Anybody have any knowledge of this stuff? I also have an extra set of .060 pistons NOS Federal Mogal, if anybody is interested.
One other thing, I'm not sure this is the right place for this, but has anybody tried putting a 9" Ford differential in a IHC rear housing? I'm looking for a way to get lower RPM's in my 49 KB3, without changing the looks too much.

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
09-22-2006, 06:52 AM
According to my books as old as they are, my earliest reference is a listing in a 1963 KLG book - normal duty IHC all commercials 1946 on = FS60T, cross references to old bosch W175T3 which in my 83/84 bosch book converts to modern bosch W7EC (super) or W7E (std) which converts to NGK B6S and Champion J12Y (not that i would ever use one EVER!) and A/C 44-5V (old) C44 (new) Don't ask about autolites! i don't know, they aint sold here and there aint any person on earth who could convince me that anything is better than an NGK plug. :D

Paul "Misterfixit" Schulz
09-22-2006, 07:25 AM
New posting of 283 engine pics! here (http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=352014#post352014)

Paul R. Fry
09-23-2006, 07:40 PM
The displacement should be stamped on the side of the block on a boss.

The Ismails have an adaptor kit to bolt a GM 700R4 behind the IHC engine. It is designed for the V8, but they have the same bolt pattern, so it should work on that too.
Hi Colin,
I was reading the above post and was curious, because in looking at my truck(a 1960 B-122 2wd w/BD 264 & T-98) it appears as though the adapter that goes between the bellhousing and the block (and for that matter, the bellhousing itself) appear to have a different bolt pattern than the SV engines. Have you tried bolting an SV bellhousing to the adapter on a BD engine? Did the starter line up with the bulge on the bellhousing(It kinda looks like it won't)? This would be cool if it worked, then one could bolt-up a T-34 or 35!
Speaking of which - did you notice the starter position on the pictures of that 283 from Paul Down Under? Hmmmm... :)

Paul R. Fry
09-23-2006, 07:42 PM
The displacement should be stamped on the side of the block on a boss.

The Ismails have an adaptor kit to bolt a GM 700R4 behind the IHC engine. It is designed for the V8, but they have the same bolt pattern, so it should work on that too.
Hi Colin,
I was reading the above post and was curious, because in looking at my truck(a 1960 B-122 2wd w/BD 264 & T-98) it appears as though the adapter that goes between the bellhousing and the block (and for that matter, the bellhousing itself) appear to have a different bolt pattern than the SV engines. Have you tried bolting an SV bellhousing to the adapter on a BD engine? Did the starter line up with the bulge on the bellhousing(It kinda looks like it won't)? This would be cool if it worked, then one could bolt-up a T-34 or 35!
Speaking of which - did you notice the starter position on the pictures of that 283 from Paul Down Under? Hmmmm... :)
Just cuious, Paul

Paul R. Fry
09-23-2006, 07:44 PM
Oops - sorry about the double post - cable modem issues. Paul

George Bailey
09-25-2006, 10:35 PM
I'm new here and glad to have found people with info on IHC 6 in-line engines. I've just purchased an IHC M-1-4 with a Green Diamond and need a water pump for it. I can re-pac the shaft if I have to, but I do need a complete pump, does anyone have any suggections?

George

JohnRobinson
10-15-2006, 03:01 AM
OK, it's 4am and i'm to tired to reread the posts, after 7 pages my eyes are tired. Did we ever determine the color of the sd-220 engines? i'm pulling mine today and would like to paint it correctly.

thanks, John

WRENCH MAN
10-15-2006, 09:44 AM
OK, it's 4am and i'm to tired to reread the posts, after 7 pages my eyes are tired. Did we ever determine the color of the sd-220 engines? i'm pulling mine today and would like to paint it correctly.

thanks, John
The SD240 in my 56' S120 was red on the castiron and silver on the tin, I've seen others this way also.

Jim Grammer
10-15-2006, 04:50 PM
The SD240 in my 56' S120 was red on the castiron and silver on the tin, I've seen others this way also.

Interesting that your S would have an SD. The S series sales brochure and Crismon's book call out BD's, which both of my S's have. In any case, I can't imagine 2 tone as am OEM paint scheme as it would require a masking step and 2 colors of paint on the line. I would go with all argent silver, that's what's shown on the chassis rendering in the brochure and that's how my unrestored R Travelall is painted.

WRENCH MAN
10-15-2006, 06:28 PM
Interesting that your S would have an SD. The S series sales brochure and Crismon's book call out BD's, which both of my S's have. In any case, I can't imagine 2 tone as am OEM paint scheme as it would require a masking step and 2 colors of paint on the line. I would go with all argent silver, that's what's shown on the chassis rendering in the brochure and that's how my unrestored R Travelall is painted.
Of the two 56's I had (the fixer and the parts truck) they both had SD's in them, a 220 and a 240. I had to use the block of the 220 and used all of the other 240 stuff, both of them were painted this way, and I've seen photos of others, I belive here on the BB, painted in this manor.

Andrew Harvey
02-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Does anybody know if a BD(BLD)269 has a steel crank? I thought it might being a truck engine. Might have to have mine welded.
Andrew

Mark Ashford
02-14-2007, 12:40 PM
Does anybody know if a BD(BLD)269 has a steel crank? I thought it might being a truck engine. Might have to have mine welded.
Andrew

:eek:


you know, you might want to look in JD's 'Iron deposits at the IHOH' thread in the IHSTO forum. IIRC he had (2) 269's that another club member picked up to keep them from heading to the scrapper. I have no idea what the other guy was going to do with them, but it might be worth a PM or e-mail to see if he would be willing to part one.


Just a thought.

WRENCH MAN
02-14-2007, 01:47 PM
I belive that they are, look at the parting line, if it's thin 1/32" it's cast, ifit's wide 1/2" its forged and can probibly be welded, IF it "MAG's" OK!

mike m.
02-17-2007, 07:33 AM
Hello :) I am greatly pleased with IHC 6 group. I recently bought a 60's IH Fleetstar and I am gathering info on it. It is a tandum with air brakes 5-speed 2-speed and a huge IL-6cyl. I have found the size casting thanks to this I6 group,Thank you greatly, It is the RD 501 :D which I am looking forward to running and driving. I will be glad to talk about the 6cl or the truck if I can be of any help to anyone. I am continuing to dig up more info on both. This is a great forum Thanks soo much, Mike in Kentucky.

64c1100h
02-25-2007, 12:54 PM
i have a 64 1100h with a bg241 stamped on the block the oil pan is stamped in big numbers 220 any ideas on what thats about im new to ih so take it easy

Vern0n
03-23-2007, 06:38 AM
The BG 241's, BD 240's, and BD 220's all used the same oil pan. That is why it is stamped 220. My BG 241 is stamped likewise. That's so when your truck runs over the top of a chebby truck the driver looks up and says "That's only a 220? Sure beats the pants off my 350!" :eek:

mike m.
03-23-2007, 10:05 PM
RED DIAMOUND Engine 501 cid, this is a few bits of info I have came up with so far.These are from old owners manuals,engine manuals,etc. I will gladly add more as I get them as well as part numbers for replacement parts from "todays" parts houses.

Valves; tappet clearance {intake & exhaust}~~~~ .020 inch {hot}
~~~~~.023in{cold}
Plug gap~~~~~~~~.030"_______Points~~.019"{new}~~.016"{reset}
Oil capacity~~~9quarts
cooling sys~~~approx. 27qts.
Weight~~approx. 993lbs

Note: I have more info on the RD engines available, let me know if you need some thing, happy to help~~momanning@mikrotec.com~~or PM

Pics. My RD-501, I will post others as I get repairs made.

badhat@pvtnetworks
03-28-2007, 11:00 PM
I am new to this computer talk, so I may be out of line. I have a 1956 S-100 pickup with a in line 6. I need to put inserts and bearings in it, but don't know what size engine it is. I looked and could not find any numbers on the block. Can anyone tell me where to look? Thanks.

Dave Ball
03-28-2007, 11:32 PM
on the front left of the engine block below where the engine and the head join together there is a machined fkat area not to be confused with the casting number slug plate above this machined area.
If there is paint and grease you will need to scrape andf brush but its there.

good luck

Dave
:)

sidecarguy
03-30-2007, 02:06 PM
Just wanted to post some info. I looked in old post and couldnt find the torque for my 232 head bolts. ( Yeah, I know its and AMC motor, but IH put it in so here I am. ) Anyhow I found a website with info on the 232 so here it is...

http://www.null.cl/hornet/torque.html

Maybe this'll save someone else hunting for it.
John

snowjob
03-31-2007, 01:46 AM
I thought I read somewhere the BD240 & BD264 were tilt-valve engines and the straight valve were the older SD220's. The BG241 was the next generation. Is this wrong?

Rob Peterson
03-31-2007, 06:22 AM
Early BD- engines have straight valve heads, later ones have tilt valves. BG- were all tilt valves.

snowjob
03-31-2007, 11:42 AM
Is there a way to tell by the casting # if the BD engine is an early one or not or was IH just using up their supply of heads making a straight valve sort of rare for the BD.
Along the same line, are there certain casting or serial #'s or date codes that would help determine whether the engines in our trucks are the original ones? We commonly see trucks forsale with what is believed to be the original engine. That being a selling point I'd like to verify or at least confirm the possibly of. I know some people will scoff at this as being totally unimportant but it is to me when I buy, or sell that I give and get the most accurate info. Also if I rebuild an engine, I want to spend it on the right one. It does affect value.
Thanks

mike m.
03-31-2007, 02:30 PM
RD-engine? This may be an odd question, are the Rd- engines a tilt valve or straight? Thanks

snowjob
03-31-2007, 04:35 PM
I've never heard of a red diamond refered to as a tilt valve. I understand the silver diamond engine had a problem with sucking valves, the redesign to a tilt valve BD lessened the likelyhood of a valve problem as I understand it. I'm no expert, this is just stuff I read here or somewhere. I have a GD, RD, & BD's so I'm interested in this stuff. I hope someone has a method to accurately date these engines. It would undoubtably take alot of research.

mike m.
03-31-2007, 08:08 PM
RD-Engines, anyone have any general tips on these? On the valve adjustment I brought engine to operating temp.laid off the cover and "bumped" engine over untill I could clearly see a valve open on the first cyl. Then I adjusted the other valve and "bumped" again to get the second valve. To me it seems these engines have a little more "overlap" than most I have adjusted and that is why I took it one valve at a time. I first tried to do the ones where the other valve was open, but I found that even though one valve is "somewhat open" that it needs to be full open before you adjust the other valve, that is why I said it has more over lap than what I am use to. I found 1/2 at least were too tight and all the others were approx .010 too lose. Now it sounds and runs much better. I hope this is of help to someone.Mine is the 501, thanks :)

Vern0n
08-27-2007, 07:14 AM
Has anybody tried turbo charging one of these old sixes? Seems with the low compression they would benifit greatly. Then again, what do I know? I have a 241 BG. I also have a locked up 282 sitting around.

Dave Ball
08-27-2007, 03:50 PM
Turbo charging might cause these old girls to blow a gasket.:)
What do you hope to gain more torque or speed?
Might be cheeper to go buy a junkyard Cummins and drop that in the old girl if you want some fuel savings $ and a little better road speed say maybe 60mph on flat ground with a tail wind.

John Donnelly
08-27-2007, 05:52 PM
Turbo charging might cause these old girls to blow a gasket.:)
What do you hope to gain more torque or speed?
Might be cheeper to go buy a junkyard Cummins and drop that in the old girl if you want some fuel savings $ and a little better road speed say maybe 60mph on flat ground with a tail wind.

Since BD engines have a copper or metal head gaskets, and the compression is low, this engine sort of begs for turbocharging. What it would give is more power without having to do things like drive up the mountain grade with your foot mashed flat against the floor, or worse, the hand throttle pulled all the way out and your floorboards so hot you can't leave your boots on them.

-John

mike m.
08-27-2007, 08:17 PM
Hi, if IIRC either on this site or oldih I saw and saved a photo where some one had taken a Red-Diamound and added/switched it to eletric fuel injection and I think coil packs, sure did look good and I would think increased the power,etc. I think it was a 450RD. :)

Jim Grammer
08-31-2007, 10:29 AM
Has anybody tried turbo charging one of these old sixes? Seems with the low compression they would benifit greatly.

Well, courtesy of Rick R., there's a mostly refurbed 240 sitting on my shop floor. The turbo(looks like a Chrysler 2.2 app) is sitting on top of it. They don't seem to have mated left to their own devices, and the 'kit' is missing the all important round tuit :rolleyes:

Maybe if it actually rains this winter....'course it doesn't help that I really don't have a home for such a beast at this point.

IHCollector81
08-31-2007, 02:24 PM
Ummm.... I don't think you can. :(

That is still proprietary information owned by Navistar.

If it is still available in re-print, you cannot supply it in any format. :(

I will inquire with BinderBooks, I have to stop there tomorrow anyway. If they say fine, then we can proceed. If not, then I guess we start posting pertinent data, handtyped.

Stuff like gaps, clearances, "neat to know" stuff. Just don't reproduce pages. :eek:

Binderin',

John

You could try to send it via **link removed**[/url])

John Donnelly
08-31-2007, 02:36 PM
You could try to send it via **link removed**

You could also get sued.

The web site won't be privy to copyright infringement.

:mad:

-John

Dave Ball
09-01-2007, 01:37 PM
I spoke to a buddy of mine who adated and installed fuel injection and a turbo from a Chevy gasser to his K-8 with an RD-451.
Some people from California may know him Marvin McMasters he drives his big Cat powered yellow 6x6 IHC service truck a lot it now has a Cat motor from a Motorhome in it.

The problem Marvin says is the long stroke of the old sixes and the higher RPM the gear ratio's have them operating at.
Marvin bent a few rods and tore up a crank.
I purcased a KB-7 that somone swapped in an RD-361 out of a WW2 6x6 with a paxton supercharger from a studebaker vehicle of unknown origin and all though it did provide some excitment ( screaming noise it made) when climbing hills it really was a maintenece hog as the truck blew copper head gaskets all the time I believe due to the gear ratio and belt speed.

There was a guy in Oregon Tommy Evo who raced a multi engine 4x4 dragster back in the day and he used some international parts.

Russ McLean
09-01-2007, 02:16 PM
... a photo where some one had taken a Red-Diamound and added/switched it to eletric fuel injection and I think coil packs

That was me.

www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70744&highlight=fuel+injection

mike m.
09-01-2007, 07:08 PM
Thanks, I remember items but I cant always remember where. I do drive a school bus and I guess that would explain part of it. From what I could see in the photos it was a realy neat set up and I am pleased and inpressed when some one does some thing different like that rather than "cookie cutter builds". I like one a little different, people are different so why not our trucks? Thanks again for helping me out.:rockon:

IHCollector81
09-01-2007, 08:56 PM
What was the bore, stroke, and first-year HP and torque ratings for the RD-501 Six?

I know that the diesel D-282 and D-301 were conversions of the Black Diamond 282 and 308 gas engines, respectively (the D-301 having either been debored or destroked from its original BD-308 incarnation){reference requested}.

~Ben

Jim Grammer
09-01-2007, 11:59 PM
I know that the diesel D-282 and D-301 were conversions of the Black Diamond 282 and 308 gas engines, respectively (the D-301 having either been debored or destroked from its original BD-308 incarnation).

I'd be careful with the 'conversion' reference. Even with similar dimensions and package sizes, you're looking at different block castings, different heads and very few(if any) shared parts.

John Donnelly
09-02-2007, 10:19 AM
What was the bore, stroke, and first-year HP and torque ratings for the RD-501 Six?

I know that the diesel D-282 and D-301 were conversions of the Black Diamond 282 and 308 gas engines, respectively (the D-301 having either been debored or destroked from its original BD-308 incarnation).

~Ben


Unless you have some factory documentation showing that, I would say that is hearsay at best.

For one, the BD282 and BD308 were very LARGE engines, and second, neither one was ever stuffed in a light line.

Since the D301 was used as the Diesel option for the light line, I doubt your statement holds any anti-freeze.

Unless you have pics to prove it.

-John

mike m.
09-02-2007, 10:31 PM
Hi, I will tell what I can about the 501, I am still gathering info my self on it. Most of the info I have are from spec. sheets, old manuals, old IH litature, etc. I can not be sure to 100% because IH continued to make changes and improvements. Most of what I have is from the 1960's.
1. Bore is 4 & 1/2"
2. HP is listed at 214.8
3. Tork is 450-460flbs @ 1700-1800rpm's
4. My truck is a 1964, I am rather certain they made the 501 prior to that and some parts manuals list it to the late 70's, maybe 1980-81.
5. They{IHC} also had the RD-406 and RD-450 at the same time as the RD-501{60's-70's} again this is acording to parts manuals at the auto parts here.
6. The stroke on a 450 is 5" which is an 1/2" longer than a 406. The 406 and 450 have the same bore of 4 & 3/8". I would estimate the 501 to have the 5" stroke, just a larger bore.I can not find the RD-501 specs at hand at the moment.
7. The other RD-engines have sleves, the 501 does not have a sleve.
8. my 501 has an aparent 2-bl carb on it{large} and I know some of the 501 came with I think a 4-bl carb.
9. The 501 weighs approx 1,000lbs empty{no oil,acc.,etc.}
10. Some have a one piece exhaust manifold while the later ones like mine have two seperate manifolds.
I hope some of this is of help. As I find more info I will be glad to list it here. If any one else has some more info on the 501 please type in, thank you.

WRENCH MAN
09-02-2007, 11:38 PM
My info shows
bore - stroke
RD-372, 4.375x4.125
RD-406, 4.375x4.500
RD-450, 4.375x5.000
RD-501, 4.500x5.250

IHCollector81
09-03-2007, 12:15 AM
My info shows
bore - stroke
RD-372, 4.375x4.125
RD-406, 4.375x4.500
RD-450, 4.375x5.000
RD-501, 4.500x5.250

Hi, I will tell what I can about the 501, I am still gathering info my self on it. Most of the info I have are from spec. sheets, old manuals, old IH litature, etc. I can not be sure to 100% because IH continued to make changes and improvements. Most of what I have is from the 1960's.
1. Bore is 4 & 1/2"
2. HP is listed at 214.8
3. Tork is 450-460flbs @ 1700-1800rpm's
4. My truck is a 1964, I am rather certain they made the 501 prior to that and some parts manuals list it to the late 70's, maybe 1980-81.
5. They{IHC} also had the RD-406 and RD-450 at the same time as the RD-501{60's-70's} again this is acording to parts manuals at the auto parts here.
6. The stroke on a 450 is 5" which is an 1/2" longer than a 406. The 406 and 450 have the same bore of 4 & 3/8". I would estimate the 501 to have the 5" stroke, just a larger bore.I can not find the RD-501 specs at hand at the moment.
7. The other RD-engines have sleves, the 501 does not have a sleve.
8. my 501 has an aparent 2-bl carb on it{large} and I know some of the 501 came with I think a 4-bl carb.
9. The 501 weighs approx 1,000lbs empty{no oil,acc.,etc.}
10. Some have a one piece exhaust manifold while the later ones like mine have two seperate manifolds.
I hope some of this is of help. As I find more info I will be glad to list it here. If any one else has some more info on the 501 please type in, thank you.

Thank you guys!

~Ben

Carl Wiese
09-04-2007, 05:05 PM
What was the bore, stroke, and first-year HP and torque ratings for the RD-501 Six?

I know that the diesel D-282 and D-301 were conversions of the Black Diamond 282 and 308 gas engines, respectively (the D-301 having either been debored or destroked from its original BD-308 incarnation).

~Ben

Unless you have some factory documentation showing that, I would say that is hearsay at best.

For one, the BD282 and BD308 were very LARGE engines, and second, neither one was ever stuffed in a light line.

Since the D301 was used as the Diesel option for the light line, I doubt your statement holds any anti-freeze.

Unless you have pics to prove it.

-John


I am interested in some proof as well. In my 3 years of work at Binder Books, tracing what engine was related to or built from another engine was difficult work, even with the vast amount of technicle resources at my fingers. This website is based on the free flow of good information and we do our best to make sure that information is correct. You've made the claim, and made claims in other thread off hand, like they were common knowledge, when in fact they are a detraction from excepted knowledge. Now you are asking to back up your statement, so please go ahead. One of the reasons I ask is because I know you are mistaken and I have proof.

mike m.
09-04-2007, 07:15 PM
Thank you Wrench for the bore and stroke "corrections" I will note them in my books. As for the Diesel engines "I am very ignorant in this area, I drive a DT-466 daily and know a little about it, mostly what the nice mechanics at the bus shop tell and show me. I am like all the others here, I mean no harm and dont mean to offend, but we do need "good & correct" information. Thanks to all who post such info for folks like me.:cool2:

Carl Wiese
09-04-2007, 11:26 PM
I am interested in some proof as well. In my 3 years of work at Binder Books, tracing what engine was related to or built from another engine was difficult work, even with the vast amount of technicle resources at my fingers. This website is based on the free flow of good information and we do our best to make sure that information is correct. You've made the claim, and made claims in other thread off hand, like they were common knowledge, when in fact they are a detraction from excepted knowledge. Now you are asking to back up your statement, so please go ahead. One of the reasons I ask is because I know you are mistaken and I have proof.

Since there isn't a response yet, I am just going to go ahead and clear this up. The BD-282/308 are NOT the same engine as the D-301.

First off, a simple look at the engines will show you great difference between the two. The 282/308 have the intake and exhaust mounted to the passenger's side of the engine, where the D-301 has the exhaust on the passenger's side and the intake on the drivers. Secondly the 282/308 is dimensionally larger then the D-301 and while I don't have hard number it can be seen by the number of head bolts. The 282/308 has 10 MORE 1/2-13 bolts then the D-301. As a fact the 282/308 has 24 and the D-301 has 14. There are also internal differnece with valve placment and sizing

The block is also very different and can be very simpley distingushed by which side the serial number is on. The 282/308 have a machined pad on the right side of the engine, where as the D-301 has it on the left. Also, the front of the motors greatly different with very different timing covers on them, who's bolt patter is cast and then machined into the block. Further difference can be seen by looking at the cranks. The 282/308 have a main journal diameter of 2.7005" and a pin diameter of 2.122". The D-301's main diamter is 2.748" and pins are 2.373. On top of all this is the weight of the engine wet. The 282 is 768#'s the 308 782#'s and the 301 tips the scales at 950#'s. There are other differences as well, but I don't think I need to go into them to prove my point.

I would like to make something else clear. I am no trying to belittle or punish anyone, after this website is a data mine, and I hate to think I scared someone from posting on it. But as this is a data mine we must makes sure data posted is CORRECT. People have the right to ask you where you got your information and you have the right to back it up. I am not comdemming mistakes, after all a quick search of my posts will yeild plenty, so please don't take this as such. I simply want the BEST information out there, and when someone asks you to back up your claim, do so, after all you may teach us a thing or two.

FWIW, I think I know where you may have made your mistake. It lies with the tractor side of things. IH did in fact make a D-282 for tractors, but it is different from the 282 found on the truck side of things, simply seen by the fact the D-282 is sleaved from the factory and the Truck 282 isn't. It's common practice among tractor pullers to removes the sleaves from the engine, and enlarge the piston size by running without them. They end up with a displacement of 301. Throught the years, the D-282 has been confused with the BD (black diamond) 282. To add to this IH used the BD designation on the tractor side of things as well, to signify "British Diesel" or engine built in their british plants for their tractors. I don't know if there was ever a BD-282 (british diesel), but many tractor guys call the old D-282 , a BD-282 (british diesel) as a misnomer, thinking the truck BD (black diamond) was the same motor.

IHCollector81
09-05-2007, 02:48 AM
Hi,

I have noticed that Navistar had created a 'new' DT-466E (in which today's MaxxForce DT is based on) which involved combining the block from the 530E and using a different and shorter crankshaft (with a piston stroke length of 4.68") on it to give out a slightly different displacement of 464.2 cubic inches{reference requested}. I believe this new DT-466E perhaps came out in late 1997, in response to that year's emission regulations.

The older DT-466 on-highway engine (1975 to 1997) utilized a bore of 4.3" and a stroke of 5.35", which made a true displacement of 466.2 cubic inches.

~Ben

IHCollector81
10-21-2007, 08:34 AM
What were the HP and torque ratings for the 1973 and '74 specifications of the Royal Red Diamond 406, 450 and 501 6-cyl gas engines? I would assume to be pretty much the same as they were in the '50s-'60s (193 for the RD406, 199 for the RD450 and 215 for the RD501).

The RD406 was the sole engine available for the 1853-FC commercial bus chassis (which had been dropped around June of 1973 and did not return until September 1981, at which point had used diesel power exclusively (to comply with the edict that all models ending with a "50" engine designation indicates mid-range diesel power), which was either the 9.0L V-8 or the DT-466B Six).

Ben Edge
Milwaukie (Oak Grove), OR

jeffcoolman
11-15-2007, 06:12 PM
i have a bg 241 with air pump for emissions did not think in 68 they needed this?

Vern0n
11-16-2007, 06:27 AM
They were putting air pumps on cars as far back as 1966 I think. Your 241 must have come from California. I have a 68 BG 241 also, but no air pump.

Jim Grammer
11-16-2007, 12:56 PM
i have a bg 241 with air pump for emissions did not think in 68 they needed this?

They were putting air pumps on cars as far back as 1966 I think. Your 241 must have come from California. I have a 68 BG 241 also, but no air pump.

'E' or emissions engines were introduced by IH for 1967 production, I have the bulletin for the launch(somewhere :rolleyes: ).

Part of that was the introduction of AIR systems. While I don't believe that AIR was exclusive to CA, I'd have to pull the bulletin to see what the particular rationale was.

I have seen a '67 1000 equipped with a BG-241 that had AIR. Kinda caught me by surprise at first.

Brad T
11-25-2007, 06:53 AM
I have a C1500 with a 281 which i am restoring. While overhauling the brakes, i found the remote brake booster had alot of engine oil inside it.
I assume its coming from the 281's crank case breather which goes to the inlet manifold and then on to the booster, and the engine is a heavy breather and venting engine oil.
Are they known to do this or would it be more likely piston blow-by and i need new rings?
If its a common problem, has anyone fitted a catch can or routed the breather hose higher?
Thanks for any advice!

Jim Grammer
11-25-2007, 08:33 AM
I have a C1500 with a 282 which i am restoring. While overhauling the brakes, i found the remote brake booster had alot of engine oil inside it.
I assume its coming from the 282's crank case breather which goes to the inlet manifold and then on to the booster, and the engine is a heavy breather and venting engine oil.
Are they known to do this or would it be more likely piston blow-by and i need new rings?

I would do 2 things first: 1) Perform a compression test dry/wet to answer the question about the condition of the ring seal. 2) Install a PCV system if the truck currently has a road draft tube, or make sure any currently installed PCV system is functioning.

Brad T
11-25-2007, 10:58 AM
Great, thanks for your advice. Before removing the head for hardened valve seats for unleaded petrol, i was planning on doing a comp test, but i hadn't thought of fitting a PCV valve in the breather lines. I dont think it has one, so i'll fit one and see how she goes.
Thanks again!

Jim Grammer
11-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Great, thanks for your advice. Before removing the head for hardened valve seats for unleadd

Your engine came equipped with hardened exhaust valve seat inserts from the factory as OEM. Have a look at the exploded head diagram in the parts catalog :)

Brad T
11-27-2007, 12:10 AM
Your engine came equipped with hardened exhaust valve seat inserts from the factory as OEM. Have a look at the exploded head diagram in the parts catalog :)

Really? Great stuff! Thanks for your advice yet again.

Brad T
12-01-2007, 12:07 PM
I would do 2 things first: 1) Perform a compression test dry/wet to answer the question about the condition of the ring seal. 2) Install a PCV system if the truck currently has a road draft tube, or make sure any currently installed PCV system is functioning.

Ok i pulled apart, cleaned and replaced all rubber hoses in my PCV system- all looks good. There was a check valve (full of carbon and gunk!) just off the rear side-plate. Gave it a good clean-up and noticed there wasn't a spring inside? Just a cylinder with a metal bullet thing in it. Is this normal?
Thanks!

Jim Grammer
12-01-2007, 10:46 PM
Ok i pulled apart, cleaned and replaced all rubber hoses in my PCV system- all looks good. There was a check valve (full of carbon and gunk!) just off the rear side-plate. Gave it a good clean-up and noticed there wasn't a spring inside? Just a cylinder with a metal bullet thing in it. Is this normal?

Yes, the poppet in a PCV is typically not spring loaded.