Bad Vendor Experiences

[John Donnelly]

Rather than the emotionally charged thread from before, this thread is offered in the same vein as JetFxr's.

Post your bad vendor experience here. Name the vendor, report the facts.

Opinions, op-ed pieces and bandwagon posts will not be tolerated.

Thank you,

John

[jmaroon]

i ordered a bunch of travelall parts (500 bucks worth) from john fleck at backcountry binders. paid up front, sold the vehicle 18 months later, because i didn't get my parts (after weekly calls and weekly excuses) and couldn't do anything to it without them.. finally got a lawyer involved, and the parts showed up a week later.. 2 years after the check cleared :taz: i won't be recommending him any time soon.

[stu simpson]

I have been around awhile and have experienced a lot of transactions in the last 20 years, good and bad. Not going to comment on all of the unpleasant ones, because some of it involves subjective expectations on the part of both parties, and most were one time deals. Also not going to comment on aborted deals that did not take place or reversed due to flakeout. **** happens. Too many to count, plus I have been guilty of flaking it myself or taking too long for reasons good and bad. (There is one guy who I might comment about later, mainly because he seems to be one of the ones who have had a lot of false indignation :taz: with regard to this entire episode from the outset, we'll see if he decides to post up in this column). I will also never post about someone who gave me my money back, at least they did that much.

I'm only going to post about one vendor I have had universally unpleasant dealings with, and that is Outback Parts in Spokane Washington. After reading these, which happened in no particular order, you may ask yourself, "why did you go back?" for which I have no really good answer except to say this was before internet and before I even knew that there was a Binder Community.

1. Received a bananna'd D70 front tie rod from them, like it was used to drag the vehicle 100 miles with a tow strap with a semi. Refused to make it right. This was in the days before CC challenges.

2. Sent me a repro manual for R series trucks to the wrong address. It sat outside in the rain for a month, then was returned to them. The corrtected the address and resent the manual. Yes the soaked thru moldy manual with all of the pages stuck together. They even repacked it for me how sweet. Refused to make it right.

3. Needed a core 4BBL to replace a TQ for a Scout motor, but RJ talked me into buying a new carb "specifically indicated for replacement on the spreadbore manifold". What he sent was a universal Edelbrock 1406 that I could have bought almost across the street from me. It came without the adapter for the square to spread, no gaskets, and I also had to buy an adapter for the air filter. All I could say was you have got to be F-ing kidding me. Partly on me I guess, but he refused to make it right to make the part useable on my truck.

[stefen bolander]

When first ordering from a company, I usually tend to place a smaller order to find out whay type of costomer service a company has. That way, I'm not out a whole lot of money if things turn sour. Anyway, I was at one point in need of a few basic suspension parts. In my shopping around, I found that Damian Grihalva of D and C extreme seemed to have a lot of useful information on his website, and his prices were good. In appreciation of the info, I called and placed my order. He told me it would take less than a week to recieve my parts. After waiting over a week, no parts. After talking to him three more times, and he promising me delivery, only small portions of my order showed up. After over a month, I went to my bank and cancelled the payment. A couple of days after this, another small portion of my order showed up. At this point, he would not answer when I called or return any of my calls, so I put those parts in a box along with a letter explaining why I cancelled payment and sent it back to him. Then and only then did I recieve a call from him; to my inquiries about why it was so difficult to put some parts in a box and send them off, he had no reply.

I had since ordered a few things from Jeff Ismail of IH Only North to make up for the incomplete order from D and C, and recieved the parts after two days. Damian and I did eventually settle up, but if money hadn't been involved, I doubt he would have.

[jeffro]

I ordered a Brite Lites kit from Super Scout Specialists in October and still have nothing to show for it. After the first month I called and found out they didn't have in stock and the manufacturer takes their sweet time pumping out new kits. That's fine and all, but if you have none in stock and don't know when more are coming, why is it still listed for sale on the site? In the meantime I've heard nothing. No updates unless I call.

I don't want to trash Super Scout Specialists too much though, all my other dealings have been fast and smooth. I'm just trying to outline an area where they could be better.

[John Glancy]

I ordered a Brite Lites kit from Super Scout Specialists in October and still have nothing to show for it. After the first month I called and found out they didn't have in stock and the manufacturer takes their sweet time pumping out new kits. That's fine and all, but if you have none in stock and don't know when more are coming, why is it still listed for sale on the site? In the meantime I've heard nothing. No updates unless I call.

I don't want to trash Super Scout Specialists too much though, all my other dealings have been fast and smooth. I'm just trying to outline an area where they could be better.

Our Brite lights kits are supplied by Mike Eppinger (Scout Ranch), we are at Mike's mercy for delivery of the product that has been ordered for a long time, it is a fine product and we continue to use this supplier out of loyalty and friendship. You have not been charged $$ for the product, so to say you have nothing to show for this order is a little misleading to folks. As far as "updates" we wish we could "update" folks on back ordered items but there is simply not enough time in the day, & folks need not call but they can inquire via email for free on any item that is back ordered. We are sorry for the delay in delivering this product and it does not reflect our normal customer service. I will remove this product from our store if we cannot improve the supply and delivery time.

As stated in the past, I do not like this thread and believe it to be very dangerous and could be misleading. It feels like a pissing contest and does not belong here. Jeffro concerns could have been directed at me personally rather than in public, during these bad economic times we (nor any genuinely good vendor) cannot afford to loose any business due to some ones doubt regarding our good service after reading such comments.

JG SSS

[jeffro]

Our Brite lights kits are supplied by Mike Eppinger (Scout Ranch), we are at Mike's mercy for delivery of the product that has been ordered for a long time, it is a fine product and we continue to use this supplier out of loyalty and friendship. You have not been charged $$ for the product, so to say you have nothing to show for this order is a little misleading to folks. As far as "updates" we wish we could "update" folks on back ordered items but there is simply not enough time in the day, & folks need not call but they can inquire via email for free on any item that is back ordered. We are sorry for the delay in delivering this product and it does not reflect our normal customer service. I will remove this product from our store if we cannot improve the supply and delivery time.

As stated in the past, I do not like this thread and believe it to be very dangerous and could be misleading. It feels like a pissing contest and does not belong here. Jeffro concerns could have been directed at me personally rather than in public, during these bad economic times we (nor any genuinely good vendor) cannot afford to loose any business due to some ones doubt regarding our good service after reading such comments.

JG SSS

Sorry, I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I should have been clear that I haven't been charged yet. Honestly I hadn't even checked because I knew working with you guys that things would work out in the end. I don't want to trash talk SSS, but I think it's fair to state that things may be listed for sale that aren't actually in stock. That's the only warning I wanted to give.

Incidentally there is already a website set up for rating vendors. It grew out of the need to rate vendors in the growing tech sector, but it's not exclusive to them. Check out www.resellerratings.com sometime. It's a much better format for rating the performance of and understanding the ratings of vendors than a bunch of posts on a vBulletin forum could ever hope to be.

[John Glancy]

Sorry, I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I should have been clear that I haven't been charged yet. Honestly I hadn't even checked because I knew working with you guys that things would work out in the end. I don't want to trash talk SSS, but I think it's fair to state that things may be listed for sale that aren't actually in stock. That's the only warning I wanted to give.

Incidentally there is already a website set up for rating vendors. It grew out of the need to rate vendors in the growing tech sector, but it's not exclusive to them. Check out www.resellerratings.com sometime. It's a much better format for rating the performance of and understanding the ratings of vendors than a bunch of posts on a vBulletin forum could ever hope to be.

Your statement is fair, I thank you for your clarification and for your patience and continued business.


But a word of caution: anyone who believes that every vendor, any IH vendor or a Bronco parts vendor or a Amazon vendor, Ebay vendor etc etc, has every item in stock listed in their online store at all times is rather naive in this belief. SSS and most Vendors have terms of sales and policys listed on their sites regarding Back orders, Do most folks bother to read them? Not really.
I just don't believe it is fair for SSS to be put in the BAD VENDOR EXPERIENCES forum list for this particular reason. However looking at the bright side maybe SSS can used as an example for folks to learn that a long period back order situation can happen with ANY vendor.

[scoutboy74]

SSS is not a bad vendor at all. Quite the opposite. Now that Jeffro's complaint has been clarified, and all the facts have come out, I think it's obvious for all with eyes to see that this was nothing more than a simple misunderstanding. JG, your concerns about this thread are justified as evidenced by this particular episode. All it takes is the unintentional omission of a few critical details to make a situation appear more negative than it actually is. Be that as it may, I think this thread still serves a valuable purpose to the community. I just hope this situation would serve as a reminder to anyone with what they believe is a negative vendor experience to post. I know it's been said already, but please, think it through before posting. Make sure to include all the pertinent facts and details. Only conjecture and emotion should be omitted.

[John Donnelly]

Rather than the emotionally charged thread from before, this thread is offered in the same vein as JetFxr's.

Post your bad vendor experience here. Name the vendor, report the facts.

Thank you,

John

I have cleared out all the debate, and discussion. For those that couldn't understand it the first time, I have added my original instructions to the top of this post. That is all that will be in this thread.

I have left the posts that were actually about deals gone bad that reported the facts. No posts about a bad deal were deleted, only the discussion and for whatever reason the "limericks" that served no purpose.

I have also left Jeffro's and John Glancy's discussion as a lesson that this thread is a place where you better have your facts straight before you post, and you had better be prepared to reap what you sow if you don't report it straight.

I would prefer that folks used The Machine Shop forum to discuss issues directly with vendors if a phone doesn't work, or they feel that it is important for a customer service issue to receive closer scrutiny, but dammit...

Report the facts of the matter, and leave it. I would wager that if you report, get a response, and it fixes it, 99 times out of a hundred it will be just a bad case of mis-communication, and nothing else.

Please, follow the instructions. You all have IH truck manuals to help you along with your trucks, do us all the courtesy of following the instructions here.

If this thread degenerates again, I will remove it from Tech, move it to The Machine shop, and lock it as well as it's positive sister and we will try something else to give the community what it wants while also respecting not only the law, but each other.

Thank you,

John

[John Glancy]

I have cleared out all the debate, and discussion. For those that couldn't understand it the first time, I have added my original instructions to the top of this post. That is all that will be in this thread.

I have left the posts that were actually about deals gone bad that reported the facts. No posts about a bad deal were deleted, only the discussion and for whatever reason the "limericks" that served no purpose.

I have also left Jeffro's and John Glancy's discussion as a lesson that this thread is a place where you better have your facts straight before you post, and you had better be prepared to reap what you sow if you don't report it straight.

I would prefer that folks used The Machine Shop forum to discuss issues directly with vendors if a phone doesn't work, or they feel that it is important for a customer service issue to receive closer scrutiny, but dammit...

Report the facts of the matter, and leave it. I would wager that if you report, get a response, and it fixes it, 99 times out of a hundred it will be just a bad case of mis-communication, and nothing else.

Please, follow the instructions. You all have IH truck manuals to help you along with your trucks, do us all the courtesy of following the instructions here.

If this thread degenerates again, I will remove it from Tech, move it to The Machine shop, and lock it as well as it's positive sister and we will try something else to give the community what it wants while also respecting not only the law, but each other.

Thank you,

John

John, THANK YOU!
I have changed my opinion regarding the thread and believe now it can be something positive for folks.
I would like to take this opportunity to salute you, Jeff Bade and all the BP Adms/Mods for their continued service to the IH community. Your work is Priceless.
Have a Happy and Warm Holiday!

Cheers
JG

[Dan916]

John Donnelley,
Please consider moving this thread (and the good vendor one) to the machine shop area. I think it would be more appropriate there. I know everybody posts in the general tech area about everything I.H. Scout / light line related here and likes to find all their information here. (For example the SSII section seems dead but lots of posts are here on the subject.) To me the vendor ratings make more sense being in the area where I would go to look for a vendor. On a sticky at the top of the tech section seems very "in my face" to me.

I think it is truly useful done with the safe guards you have instituted. I stayed away from the I.H. community for many years because of a bad vendor and because my parts Scout was stripped. I even heard a rumor that the vendor was buying a lot of used parts from someone that might have been doing the stripping. The owner of that business is no longer involved with Internationals so I won't bother to go into details.

I tried to pm you but couldn't figure that out but go ahead and delete this as it isn't on topic or useful to others.

Dan

[Chris Keck]

I had a bad vendor experience with Scout Maddness when i was in Highschool, ordered a Reverse Shackle kit over thanksgiving break didn't recieve it till the end of january missing parts, there excuss was UPS doesn't run around X-mas. Then when i finally got it the holes where in the wrong places, had to toss it and start from scratch. Won't be buying from then agian.

[UserName]

I had a pretty poor experience with Super Scout Specialists. I placed a significant order with them and received my items as described. I thought the freight was a little high but realized it did nave to cover a lot of ground to get to my door plus it was possibly oversized and on the heavy side. I didn't gripe and was happy.

When I placed my second order with SSS, I received it without a glitch. The freight was also high. I emailed them and explained my concern as well as explaining that if the freight was legitimate, I would need to pay higher prices locally to save the freight. This would save me money.

Instead of making an explaination or just saying "That's what it costs, sorry." I got a response from John Glancy telling me not to threaten him with buying somewhere else and that he sells his parts to every other dealer and that he would get the sales anyways. I haven't been back since, nor have I purchased any Light Line parts.

I have done business with several other International vendors since and have had no complaints, in fact I have found all of them to be quite plesent and customer service oriented. When it comes to Light Line parts, if that's the only way I can get them, I don't need them. I've spent about 9K so far on this build and will likely spend more. But it won't be at SSS, and it won't be on Light Line parts.

Tony

[Ray Cass]

.....

[UserName]

The beauty is, I don't have to back it up. I know it happpened, and I control the direction my money goes.

Tony

[Robert JetFxr]

Personal issues aside, light line is the only way we can get most new Scout parts. I know John can sometimes be a little arrogant but he is the only reason that light line is still going. Scouts are cool trucks that are affordable to drive daily, that said go back and work it out with others at SSS without trashing a business on the web. This post will be on the Web FOREVER and if you have not explored all options it can hurt all involved. This is too big for petty fights. I for one worry about these kind of posts.

[John Glancy]

I had a pretty poor experience with Super Scout Specialists. I placed a significant order with them and received my items as described. I thought the freight was a little high but realized it did nave to cover a lot of ground to get to my door plus it was possibly oversized and on the heavy side. I didn't gripe and was happy.

When I placed my second order with SSS, I received it without a glitch. The freight was also high. I emailed them and explained my concern as well as explaining that if the freight was legitimate, I would need to pay higher prices locally to save the freight. This would save me money.

Instead of making an explaination or just saying "That's what it costs, sorry." I got a response from John Glancy telling me not to threaten him with buying somewhere else and that he sells his parts to every other dealer and that he would get the sales anyways. I haven't been back since, nor have I purchased any Light Line parts.

I have done business with several other International vendors since and have had no complaints, in fact I have found all of them to be quite plesent and customer service oriented. When it comes to Light Line parts, if that's the only way I can get them, I don't need them. I've spent about 9K so far on this build and will likely spend more. But it won't be at SSS, and it won't be on Light Line parts.

Tony

It is obvious to me that 'Username" "tony" has a personal problem with me and not SSS. I have no idea who this person is or what the misunderstanding was or how it occurred, without all the facts and without knowing who this person is, how can I possibly defend myself and my reputation? but I do know this: even if his or her phone call, email or whatever it was, was threatening or nasty to me or to SSS, the tone of the conversation was foul, if I made the comments that he/she is suggesting then I would be wrong (and arrogant-thanks robert!) and I am truly sorry if this indeed happened. Could either party have misunderstood, yes its surely possible and I regret that this person feels the way they do and wish i could do something about it.

This event is troubling to me, our community is to small to let such things happen.

This may be unrelated and certainly no excuse and very hard for me to share but in 2008-09 I went through a terrible divorce, I lost my best friend in the world, it is one of the worst things that has happened to me in my life and I have just recently felt like myself again, so if I ruffled the feathers of anyone else during this time, please accept my sincere apology. Please contact me before making something out of what could be nothing more than a possible misunderstanding.

[UserName]

John G.,
First and foremost....
I have a tremendous of respect for anyone who would apologize in an open forum for something that is unsubstantiated, whatever the reason.

I'm truly sorry for these terrible events which occurred in your life. I have never experienced either and can't imagine.

I would say that my beef was a personal one, only because the response I received was personal.

I wish I could say I've never said or done something which gave someone a reason to be cross, because something else was on my mind, but I definately have.

I understand and I opologize for not trying harder at the outset to be less obtuse.

Tony (he)

[Fuelsmech]

Now that's more like it. All of us in the Binder community are like a family, and families have spats. It's inevitable. But the fact that we can work through our differences sets us apart from everybody else.

[Bread]

D&C

Purchased long travel shock kit front and rear. Same story of waiting a month for something that should have taken less than a week. After a few calls and a post on the old bulletin the parts showed up in several boxes of grab bag parts. Somebody just threw handfuls of shock sleeves and hardware in the box. :confused: Wouldn't buy again unless I was there in person to actually receive the product.

Back Country Binders
Drove over there to pick up all the parts required to convert my truck to power steering. Got home and realized I didn't have a bracket to mount the pump to the block. John wouldn't honor the 'package' I bought and wanted to charge me extra for it. So I bought the bracket from somebody else and haven't been back, even though he's located real close to me.

SSS

This is a two part problem with the Scout Ranch and SSS. But since SSS carries their product they are therefore responsible for supporting it because I'm dealing with them exclusively.

Ordered a headlight dimmer switch among other things. Parts arrived in a fair amount of time, but the dimmer switch ended up not working with my 810 due to reasons not yet understood. Differences in the electrical systems on the early SII's. I returned it, and decided to wait on getting a refund because the SR was "working on a fix". Trying to get e-mail updates was difficult as they either didn't reply, or Bob G would reply with a one line sentence with no useable information. You've got to call these guys if you want to get through. My dealings with SSS and this switch lasted from Feb '08 to June '09 when I had enough and got a refund. It is what it is. I'd buy from SSS again, just nothing made by the Scout Ranch.

[Dana Strong]

I used to buy all of my Scout parts from T & J garage in Sunnyvale, but no longer----they were a great vendor, but sadly, it was a very bad :no: experience when they closed a few decades ago; I lost both a favorite supply source and some good, responsible acquaintances there. I wonder if it was worse for them??
:oops:

[scoutboy74]

You're bringing up a bad experience with a vendor that shuttered circa 1990 "...few decades ago..." and consequently few if any other active members have probably even heard of let alone done business with...and couldn't now even if they wanted to 'cuz the place don't exist anymore.:confused:

[John Glancy]

D&C

SSS

This is a two part problem with the Scout Ranch and SSS. But since SSS carries their product they are therefore responsible for supporting it because I'm dealing with them exclusively.

Ordered a headlight dimmer switch among other things. Parts arrived in a fair amount of time, but the dimmer switch ended up not working with my 810 due to reasons not yet understood. Differences in the electrical systems on the early SII's. I returned it, and decided to wait on getting a refund because the SR was "working on a fix". Trying to get e-mail updates was difficult as they either didn't reply, or Bob G would reply with a one line sentence with no useable information. You've got to call these guys if you want to get through. My dealings with SSS and this switch lasted from Feb '08 to June '09 when I had enough and got a refund. It is what it is. I'd buy from SSS again, just nothing made by the Scout Ranch.

The problem was on a Scout Ranch Wiper switch and not a dimmer switch, SSS tried to get answers to the problem in a timely manner, Jason was willing to wait for the parts update if it was going to be possible, when a refund was requested we were unable to refund immediately however due to credit card expiration, we tried to contact Jason and have the emails in our files, SSS wrote a check refund to Jason in the end. SSS found Jason to be very understanding and easy to deal with during this experience, we value and appreciate his business.

Along with many vendors like Scout Ranch, SSS tries to offer the best quality and the most parts that are in need and are not available any where else, when a supplier doesn't deliver SSS is just as responsible for the problem as is the supplier. SSS management is addressing the problems with this and other vendors and will drop any products that do not meet the needs of our customers in timely fashion.

FREIGHT cost issue

SSS doesn't not make money on freight, SSS charges the UPS rate plus no more than a couple of dollars for handling, some larger items may have a small box charge etc. On small items we strive to use the USPS but have found them to be unreliable at times and SSS is not able to track our orders.

A note from JG

My Pledge to you:
If any issue goes on to long or you do not get the answers that you require, please email me personally @ suprscout@aol.com, explain your concerns and I promise to do what i can to make your exprience with SSS the best posible. I will strive to improve our service.

If your concern is with another Scout/Light line Authorized dealer, please try to work it out with them first, if you are not satisfied send me a note and if i am able to help or give advise, i will try, if it is humanly possible.

John Glancy
SSS,SLL,NATS'10

[Bread]

The problem was on a Scout Ranch Wiper switch and not a dimmer switch


My mistake. It was a wiper switch.

[WarlordX]

Has anyone talked to John Fleck over at BCB within the last 2 weeks???

I'm getting really frustrated.. and way behind on my project. I ordered about 450 $ worth of items (been paid for as of 3 weeks ago) from him nearly 3 months ago (so far all my previous orders with him have been flawless and had no problems) But this last order there were some hitches, back in November he broke his lathe bit i believe and then in Early December he had some sort of surgery and so i cut him some slack, finally i talked to him.. about 3 weeks ago and he had everything in stock/finished making finally, and told me he was shipping it out that day. (I'm in California and hes in WA so it usually takes 3 days on average) I waited a week.. nothing... so i called him 2 weeks ago at just before 5 o clock. He says he is on his way too the post office to ship out someone Else's package and he will call me back when he returns and help me track down the package (tracking number, as i didn't ever get one in my email)

I never received a follow up... and have been calling him on a daily basis since then. And sent 2 emails... And PMed him

I know he is the sole owner/operator of his shop now so I'm hoping he is just busy and hasn't gotten back to me yet.. and didn't go off the road and get injured or something when he was going to the post office?? I dunno I'm at a loss right now.. Does anyone have any suggestions?

He seems very professional and that's why this seems out of character and im not trying to badmouth him.. just want my parts, or my money lol and at least an EXPLANATION

Any ideas??
Has anyone heard from him lately??

Figured this was probably the right place to post this, hoping John will get back to me as it says he was active yesterday... 1/20/10 which kind of annoys me slightly..

[John Fleck]

Has anyone talked to John Fleck over at BCB within the last 2 weeks???
He seems very professional and that's why this seems out of character and im not trying to badmouth him.. just want my parts, or my money lol and at least an EXPLANATION


I was just made aware of this posting. I do not get on here very offen as of late but here is the e-mail i sent to mike to clarify what happened.

**************************************************
I am back working at the shop tonight. I had the worst Holiday ever. I was dealing with sever depression over a compounded mix of events in my life, families life, and economic life. Then I had the Knee surgery and was in recovery for two weeks, the new steroids my doctor put me on did not mix well with my other medications and I went into a massive downward spiral. I am over the steroids and now that they are working out of my system, things are much better. It’s my sincere apology that I was “lost” in December and that I was not at work mentally or physically allot for a stretch of about 4 weeks-1.5 months total, and my situations further delayed this e-mail. I would never deceive you, or stall tactic you, as I have always been up front and honest. It shows in my work, and when anyone meets me face to face. Unfortunately this past 1.5 months has been a major change in what I consider my best foot forward. Again for that I am sorry and can only promise that I have recognized it, and taken corrective actions to change it and bring the level back up.

That said Mike, I did ship the stuff prepaid USPS flat rate box. I dumped the package in the drop box back when I told you I did. I finally followed up on it after our last conversation and I saw your e-mails. Since I never do anything special to the us mail (insurance, tracking, signature confirmation) because its been so reliable, I went up during the day and spoke with the postmaster. She checked in the back area and found one flatrate box with no label. I guess in my crazy state of mind I filled out the label but then in my rush to make it to the Post office before 5 when they closed I did not affix it to the package. Yes I must say I am embarrassed to say the least. Now I know why you have not seen the package since we spoke on the phone.
***********************************************

ADDITIONALLY:
I have also contacted Bread about his experiance. I believe i priced out the individual components he bought that day. I am not 100% sure but vaguley remember someone calling and asking about how much the bracket was. I told him $50. I do not recall getting "into" it over the price of the bracket or if it was included or not. Again this may not have been the same person, without full details and as John G. mentions its impossible to defend ones self without all the details, and at that it is still up to the people reading on who they want to believe.

As to Jmaroons post, i believe this was over 8 years ago but reallly can't remember what all the issues were. There is always a reason, but its how you deal with what happened that really counts. Call me up, remind me and i will try and make you happy if possible.

[John Fleck]

That said I have in the past made mistakes as anyone growing a business from the ground up does. I have taken responsibility for my actions and moved on a better person. To this day I have been self sufficient in my business and not had a bank loan or financial assistance of any kind to provide the amenities that come with them. It is hard when you finance everything for the business from your own pocket or profits.

I have struggled over the 11 years and made some regrettable errors as any human does. I have moved 3 times and service has suffered during these periods. I have had the normal things all of us experience at some point like death in the family, loss of pets, loss of relationships, financial hardship due to medical expenses, plain stupidity, and for me personally memory loss. So as you can see we are not perfect. I instead try and judge people as I want to be judged, based on their current position, stance, and approach to business. Over the 11 years I have taken each mistake I have made, tried the best I could to make them right, but most importantly learned and adapted from them. I change things to make sure they do not happen again. It shows my current business is nothing like the days in the one car garage, and working part time at college. Its no where even close. Additionally I try and make a decision on people for their contributions and helpfulness in the community. I sponsor shows when I can financially afford to, I travel to them when possible, and I contribute to IH community related "requests for assistance" if possible. Ask any number of people who have known me since day one, and you will get smiles, ask any one of the customers who have broken down on the way to or from my shop about how I go above and beyond to go rescue them and lend assistance in getting them on their way.
I will say this, no matter how good a vendor is, there is always going to be times when something happens that will not make all parties involved happy. It’s a fact of Life as JetFxer says. It only becomes a problem when it is a regular thing that has not been addressed by the vendor. If care is taken to avoid similar instances from happening again in the future that shows the true colors of the vendor and is the basis for their reputation in the community.

Sorry for being somewhat long winded, but I am tired of people badmouthing vendors and then not providing every single fact. It’s like having a murder trial with jurors being absent, late back from lunch, or missing due to illness. They will not get all the facts and can not make a true decision, but guess what when these things get posted up here all the details are not provided and people still choose to make a judgment and that’s wrong. Business suffers from it. How would you like to know a business failed because of an unjust reputation, or lack of business because of misleading regurgitation of facts? Once again even if all the details are provided it’s still a point of the person reading it making a decision as to who to believe.
Threads like this I feel do more harm than good. The other thread "good vendors" does far more good. If you see tons of Posts of happy customers like Jeff, SSS, etc receives it is a good indication that the business is great to deal with. If you don’t see any that may speak more than a bad vendor section. At least this way one does not have to decide whose side to be on. They can just go, this guy has 15 of 50 posts about good service, and I think I will go there. Because some businesses only have 5 doesn’t force a guy to possibly make a decision that the vendor is bad. Additionally it gives us less posted vendors something to see and go, you know I need to strive for greatness so more people mention me. See where I am going with this? In all likelihood I would buy from the guy with 25 good feedbacks instead of the guy with 10, but I may still compare the 2 for price and availability.
So take my point on it for what its worth and either make a decision, or do research to provide your own data. Personally I have stood the test of time, and although not perfect, I understand that if I am not continually evolving to today’s demands and standards, that the business will suffer. I have chosen to take criticism and be active with it. I examine it, ponder it, step outside myself and put myself in that position and look at it, and then if warranted make changes to correct what needs to be so as to eliminate the possibility of a re occurrence.

I thank you for reading my opinion and giving it some thought. May your new year bring you everything you desire it to.

Regards
John

[jmaroon]

lets see if this refreshes your memory. if i was running a business and someone threatened to sue me, I think i'd remember it.

Dear Mr. Fleck:



Although I have made several attempts to amicably collect the Travelall parts which I ordered and paid for over a year ago, you have continually resisted shipment of the parts. If I do not receive a refund in the amount of $500.00 from you by August 15, 2003, I will be forced to contact the prosecuting attorney in Kitsap County, Washington. I feel as though I have given you ample opportunity to comply with my order, and I hate to take this to a hostile level, but I feel as though I must. Even though I have sold the travelall and bought a scout, I agreed to go through with the order and accept the parts that I ordered, even though I didn’t need them. At this point (over a year after ordering the parts) I’d just rather get my money back and give it to somebody who’ll actually give me the services I request in a timely manner without all the excuses Although my attorney has been notified, I would rather handle this like a gentleman, and I refuse to trash your business to your peers and other potential customers, as I am not that type of person.


Please let me know what your intentions are at this time.

Sincerely,

Jason M. Maroon

[WarlordX]

Update : John ended up contacting me and solved this, he was very apologetic and very honest, he had not put the correct address so it was stuck at the office (just a mistake) and I now have the tracking number and it is expected to arrive Monday.

Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has problems... he made it up and even kicked down a little beer cash for the wait and the misunderstanding/communication error with the post office.

Issue resolved, I will continue to conduct business with him and im glad to call him a friend before a vendor

[Dennis Bernth]

I had mixed emotions about the 'Good Vendor/Bad Vendor' thing when it started, but this last episode on here kind of tipped the scales in favor I think. It shows that this isn't just a 'bashing' thread, and if it can help vendors and customers work out the differences in a civilized manner (more likely because it's in public) then I think it's providing a service. This and the 'Good' thread also gives vendors a chance to explain to the total group glitches that might not make the rounds and that could damage their business if not addressed. It's easy for IH people to get together, email, etc. and complain about the vendor they're dealing with, which has the result of causing the next guy to avoid dealing with them. In a situation like Fleck's, or JG's with the wiper switches or headlight kits, people see their explanations of what happened and can make their own judgement on dealing with them after they have both sides. This is a tough time to own a business, and worse yet, even in good times us IH owners are a bunch of cheap @%&$tards, so my hat is off to them for continuing to provide us the means to keep our stuff moving.

[Allan E]

This is a tough time to own a business, and worse yet, even in good times us IH owners are a bunch of cheap @%&$tards, so my hat is off to them for continuing to provide us the means to keep our stuff moving.

Never truer words spoken.

[jmaroon]

since john doesnt accept pm's i guess i'll have to get my point across here.. he can delete it if he thinks it's necessary.

thank you for reinstating the thread, but it seems like a large hunk of it is missing. how should this thread reflect the problems with vendors if an honest thread isn't shown to the public. when i had my dealings with fleck, i was new to IH, and i was nearly turned away from persuing another ih vehicle, because he was the first source i went to for parts, and well you saw how that turned out(before it was deleted). I made it a point to be civil, but i don't mind letting people know when i'm not satisfied with how a deal goes down. i could have gotten a whole lot uglier with him, but I didn't want the thread to get locked or worse, myself to get banned. To me, 500 bucks was pretty much my toy allowance for a year at the time, so an 18 month wait was unnacceptable..
thank you for your time.. sorry if it seems like a b*tch session...

[MikeInMobile,AL]

since john doesnt accept pm's i guess i'll have to get my point across here.. he can delete it if he thinks it's necessary.

thank you for reinstating the thread, but it seems like a large hunk of it is missing. how should this thread reflect the problems with vendors if an honest thread isn't shown to the public. when i had my dealings with fleck, i was new to IH, and i was nearly turned away from persuing another ih vehicle, because he was the first source i went to for parts, and well you saw how that turned out(before it was deleted). I made it a point to be civil, but i don't mind letting people know when i'm not satisfied with how a deal goes down. i could have gotten a whole lot uglier with him, but I didn't want the thread to get locked or worse, myself to get banned. To me, 500 bucks was pretty much my toy allowance for a year at the time, so an 18 month wait was unnaccebtable..
thank you for your time.. sorry if it seems like a b*tch session...

Jason, your posts in this thread have not been deleted, nor has this thread been edited. This is the exact same thread that was moved to this forum and locked. It was merely unlocked.

Vendors do not have deletion capability in this thread.

Your posts on this topic have made your point clear. It doesnt appear that you were b*******, just telling your story. No need to apologize. Thanks for keeping it civil, and thanks for your contribution.

Mike

[jmaroon]

Jason, your posts in this thread have not been deleted, nor has this thread been edited. This is the exact same thread that was moved to this forum and locked. It was merely unlocked.

Vendors do not have deletion capability in this thread.

Your posts on this topic have made your point clear. It doesnt appear that you were b*******, just telling your story. No need to apologize. Thanks for keeping it civil, and thanks for your contribution.

Mike

sorry bout that mike.. i found it, dial up sucks, and it was a couple pages back

[John Donnelly]

Jason, your posts in this thread have not been deleted, nor has this thread been edited. This is the exact same thread that was moved to this forum and locked. It was merely unlocked.

Vendors do not have deletion capability in this thread.

Your posts on this topic have made your point clear. It doesnt appear that you were b*******, just telling your story. No need to apologize. Thanks for keeping it civil, and thanks for your contribution.

Mike

This thread has been edited now. It hadn't been before.

The reason you ask?

There was a protracted argument between a member here who calls himself "orangewhip" and John Fleck, owner of Back Country Binders about the length of time, money spent, and work done by his shop on his Scout.

Mr. Fleck's final comments (more like a manifesto) for some reason caused orangewhip to go back and edit all of his posts to remove his side of things. I am not sure why, and I don't really want to know why.

What I do want is people to remember my original request. Post the facts, and leave out the drama.

I removed all of the discussion because it was now one-sided, and orangewhip's reason for originally posting was what caused the debate. We used to have a 15 minute window of time where you could edit a thread, but we removed that time limit... it seems that we may have to revisit that again, or when you reply to someone, you might consider hitting the "quote button" before you reply.

For those of you that were following this portion of this thread, I am sorry that I had to remove this popcorn drama. For those of you that were tired of the "he said, she said"... you are welcome.

I am sorry I had to remove what was posted, but without both sides, it isn't relevant, or fair.

-John

P.S. I don't need any opinions, op-ed pieces, thank you's, or why did you's, from Mr. Fleck, Orangewhip, or any comments about my decision here. Just move on, and move forward. Thank you.

[orangewhip]

Hi all,

The reason I removed all my posts was because I finally received my Scout back and the situation was over. But then there was another post that was just begging to bring out more of the drama and I thought it was unnecessary to have this continue any further.

I would just like to put all this behind me, enjoy this excellent forum, all of its extremely knowledgeable people and enjoy the first Scout I have ever owned.

I am thankful and appreciate the use of the forum and even for this thread to bring my situation to an end and I am sorry if it caused any issues as this was not my intention at all.

[Smithflyfisher1]

Here is the situation in which I am currently involved. I ordered a Z-link for my SOA from D&C Extreme back on 01-28-10. Initially, in a telephone conversation with Damian, I was advised that the part would be shipped very quickly and arrive in one week or less. I was satisfied with the timeframe and decided to give him my business since he’s local (local as in same state). The part cost $180.00, which was deducted from my banking account several days later. Here are the rest of the facts:

02-11-10 (Thurs)-I sent D&C Extreme an email asking about the status of my order because it had not shown up. No big deal at this time…. It had still been just over a week since I ordered.

02-16-10 (Tues)- No part - I got a pm from Damian stating the part should have been done by now. He added that if it was not available in the next few days, he would “explore” refunding my money. I promptly replied via pm: “O.K. I don't necessarily want a refund, just anxious about getting the rig all put back together. Let me know when you get the drag link and maybe we can work something out on shipping to expedite its arrival.” I also called on this date and spoke with Damian. He told me the part would be in by the end of the week.

02-23-10 (Tues) - No part - Received an email from Damian that said: “It’s on its way!”

02-26-10 (Fri) – No Part – Called and left a voice message as well as sent an pm to Damian letting him know the part had not shown up

02-27-10 (Sat) - Received a pm from Damian that claimed the part had been sent and that I should have received it last week. At this point I was thinking things were not all the way on the level, so I responded with a pm requesting the tracking number for the “shipped” part.

03-01-10 (Mon) – Still no part. I sent a pm to Damian letting him know I had still not seen the link as well as this email: “I sent a PM to you on BinderPlanet in reference to this part. As of today I still have not seen it. I would like to know by which company the part was shipped (UPS, FedEx, Etc.), and what the tracking number is for the part. If there has been some mistake by the shipping company or my part has been re-routed somewhere I would like to be aware of it, since I have paid for the item in full. Let me know.”

03-02-10 (Tues) – Lo and behold, the UPS guy shows up at my door with a small box from D&C containing TREs and a flip sert. Still no drag link, though. I contacted Damian and let him know I received a partial order. I received both an email expressing some surprise that I had not yet received the part. Damian told me he now assumed the link had been “lost”, and that he would send me another the very next day. I again requested to get a tracking number from him, but never received a response.

03-03-10 (Wed) – Sent Damian a pm telling him that if both links (since he claimed now two were en route) showed up at my doorstep, I would send one of them back. I also asked if I would receive the part by this Friday, he claimed I would.

Today: Still no part. Left a voice message with Damian again requesting a tracking number.

So that’s where I’m at now. Am I wrong to feel like I’m getting “jerked around” a bit? Damian has returned my PMs fairly promptly, but I feel like this has been a less-than-forthright transaction to say the least. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to any light line vendor on the Bulletin, but when can I say “Give me the part or give me my $$ back?” Now I’m bummed cause if I order another link from someplace else, I may have to wait another 2-3 weeks for delivery; I just wanna get my scout outta the driveway and onto the trail!

Hopefully readers do not view this thread as “drama”, I just wanted to relay my experience thus far.

[Damian Grihalva]

Tracking number: K1682938011

Surprised that it didn't get to you today. Kinda bummed really. Looks like it didn't leave COS till yesterday (last night actually), but still, should have been there today. UPS has not updated the information since it left Denver (commerce city) nor have they given an ETA. Most likely will arrive Monday, but the TRE's and flipsert were also late. Must be a 'four-corners' kind of delay.

Matt's account of the transaction is accurate. Despite previous weeks, the machinist had it longer than anticipated, but that doesn't remove my responsibility.

As the part has shipped and I can do nothing to resolve this matter. I will apologize to Matt again and simply affirm the accusations, and leave it at that.

I'm sorry, Good night.
Damian

[Smithflyfisher1]

Tracking number: K1682938011

Surprised that it didn't get to you today. Kinda bummed really. Looks like it didn't leave COS till yesterday (last night actually), but still, should have been there today. UPS has not updated the information since it left Denver (commerce city) nor have they given an ETA. Most likely will arrive Monday, but the TRE's and flipsert were also late. Must be a 'four-corners' kind of delay.

Matt's account of the transaction is accurate. Despite previous weeks, the machinist had it longer than anticipated, but that doesn't remove my responsibility.

As the part has shipped and I can do nothing to resolve this matter. I will apologize to Matt again and simply affirm the accusations, and leave it at that.

I'm sorry, Good night.
Damian


Thank you for the response, Damian. I will be looking forward to receiving that part. No need for an additional apology, I know things can happen that are out of one's control. Like I said before, I am very willing to give all vendors here the benefit of the doubt. Thank you for the tracking #.

Matt

[Damian Grihalva]

I actually had the tracking number right here, every time we talked it seemed that it was somewhere else. I will not return your phone call as I believe this takes care of the 'call' back.

Bummer that it didn't get there by the weekend though. The Scout is probably just waiting for it.

[John Donnelly]

Well, I just did another cleanup of crap here that I shouldn't have to do. The instructions here are clear, folks. Facts, names, and no bandwagoning, op-ed pieces, or opinions.

RSW, you didn't report the facts as requested. Your post was deleted. To the person in question in that issue, your facts were noted via off-line discussion.

Mr. Steelhead. Your credibility is in question. You appear out of nowhere, no posts, no history, NO FACTS, and attack Mr. Fleck of BCB. Your post has been removed, as well as Mr. Fleck's rather wordy retort.

Why?

No facts. no proof. No credibility.

Have them, provide them, and be ready to defend yourself.

This is the last straw for this program. If it fails again, it will be gone, and it will not be revisited.

Clear?

-John

[Tonebone]

I never have liked this thread. If you have a bad experience with a vendor, the grape vine should be enough. I also feel like we are eating our own. Tony

[John Donnelly]

I never have liked this thread. If you have a bad experience with a vendor, the grape vine should be enough. I also feel like we are eating our own. Tony

Tell that to your peers. They are the ones that wanted this labor intensive piece of crap.

-John

[Bread]

I never have liked this thread. If you have a bad experience with a vendor, the grape vine should be enough. I also feel like we are eating our own. Tony

There is also a good vendor thread where many vendors have been given praise for their outstanding service. There's an attempt here to support both ends of the spectrum. It is up to us to stack the chips one way or the other.

These two threads combined are the online "grape vine." Without them, the only way to learn is to be burned firsthand. Good people continue to lose good money and bad vendors are allowed to continue these habits unchecked. This forum is to help fellow IH enthusiasts, period. It's was created, and still managed by the same enthusiasts. Although this system is not perfect, it is a method of accountability. A way for use to look out for our own. This is our attempt at a Better Business Bureau, which in itself is not perfect. E-bay labels their sellers in a similar fashion. A consumer must read complaints with discerning eye, as there are two sides to every story. No single complaint paints a complete picture, however a collection of complaints will begin to reveal some truth.

I realize the limitations, but applaud the effort made here.

[Allan E]

I have to agree, the BBB is a joke, at least sometimes. All of my experiences with them have made me think of it as a clown act.

Back to the thread, it's not hard to deal with businesses who treat you unfairly.
1. You lay out the transaction details, including dates, names, and method of payment and delivery.
2. You lay out the communication details, including dates and names.
3. You lay out whether payment was received, and when.
4. You lay out the manner in which you tried to resolve the issue, and with whom, including dates, names, times.
5. You lay out the manner in which you requested your money back, and the deadline you requested.


***6. You give the information to the vendor.***

Question: Wait a minute, we're on step 6 and haven't even posted here yet? :confused:

Answer: Exactly. :oops: :nono:

7. Only then, if you still have not received satisfaction, do you have a valid complaint that might be posted here. Only then, if the vendor disagrees with you, should the vendor need to mount a defense, agree that things should be resolved, or simply continue to flake out.

This isn't all that tough. There are simple, straightforward ways to deal with these issues. If you don't follow them, you should be subject to ridicule :hammer: from your peers (which is the rest of us), because adults know how to handle business in an adult manner. If we act like children, adults will be forced to deal with us as such.

[orangewhip]

This isn't all that tough. There are simple, straightforward ways to deal with these issues. If you don't follow them, you should be subject to ridicule :hammer: from your peers (which is the rest of us), because adults know how to handle business in an adult manner. If we act like children, adults will be forced to deal with us as such.

When vendors start posting huge replies, some of which may be true or untrue (nobody can really know for sure except the parties involved), as the paying customer you feel obligated to reply again, and then it becomes a vicious cycle.

I agree that the more a certain vendor does get called out, the more it becomes truthful. Same goes for the good vendor experiences, the more a customer praises them, the more it offsets the negative on them. I mean everybody has a bad day/week, and can be forgiven, but when certain vendors KEEP being called out, that is when people should start paying attention.

It's funny, you don't hardly see nearly as many vendors replying when there is praise for them in the good vendors forum, but they write essays when they are being brought out on this thread.

I think part of the problem, is not enough customers are posting in both the good and bad vendors threads... only then will the truth really come out.

Ohhh, and I agree about the BBB, I took my complaint to them originally to get my situations straightened out, but when they received no reply, that is when I turned to the forum.

[John Donnelly]

The thing I don't understand about the majority of the complainers is when they post a complaint and the vendor responds, they get offended, pull their post like taking their ball and going home after a bad day at the sandlot, and nothing gets resolved.

You are slamming someones business. Sure, they may have done you wrong, but if the manner in which you feel wronged doesn't stand up to scrutiny, who is the real "bad" in this? Someone slams someone else's livelihood and they are supposed to stand idly by and let you? You can't complain, kids, and expect nobody to call you out on the schoolyard. If you can't back up your claims, who is really the fool?

John Glancy has shown that many times a complaint isn't a complaint at all, but a lack of communication by one or the other, or many times BOTH parties.

Orangewhip posted a very well thought out complaint against BCB, and when BCB retorted, he removed all of his information... not sure why to this day.. but it forced the removal of the entire section to make it fair.

What we in the BP Admin team don't want or like is being a referee. This thread demands it, and frankly, we get tired of trying to figure out who is right in this boxing ring that has been created here.

Jeff Bade and I both agree that this thread sucks up more of our time than any other. We both hate it. In turn, it makes us not like the people we serve very much because of all the wet-nursing we need to do for all the whining we get in the forums, via PM, and also email from all the "offended" parties.

Well, guess what?

Be offended. Nobody on this earth ever guaranteed anyone the right not to be offended, or for that matter, that anyone has to like or tolerate any of you.

Follow our rules, and realize that when you embark on the path of war with someone, they aren't going to just let you shoot at them without shooting back.. what it comes down to is which one of you in that contest of arms has the better aim, and the better tactics. If you are going to complain, understand that you will more than likely reap what you sow, and we won't save you from yourselves.

-John

[orangewhip]

I pulled all my posts because it was all becoming a he said/she said situation.

There were many items that were being excluded by the vendor ( I wont name them again) in their post, but because they put up a chronological order of what they thought happened, then I would have to go in between each and every entry in their long list and state what was left out or wrong. Not worth my time, nor anybody else's.

I got what I wanted, my Scout back... and posting on here is what made it happen, so for me, it worked great. I had many issues with the vendor, a lot I just let go of....costing me money... all just to get my Scout back in my possession.

So, why did I remove all my posts, well because with the way it was going, each reply from the vendor was getting longer and longer and more of them as well... others didn't need to be fronted with all that, especially when I got the Scout back.

To this day, I will not ever contact or use that vendor again, even though I think he may be a nice guy, I just don't think he knows how to treat ( communicate) with customers, especially ones paying quite a bit of money. Sure did feel like I was his gravy train.

[John Donnelly]

I pulled all my posts because it was all becoming a he said/she said situation.

There were many items that were being excluded by the vendor ( I wont name them again) in their post, but because they put up a chronological order of what they thought happened, then I would have to go in between each and every entry in their long list and state what was left out or wrong. Not worth my time, nor anybody else's.

I got what I wanted, my Scout back... and posting on here is what made it happen, so for me, it worked great. I had many issues with the vendor, a lot I just let go of....costing me money... all just to get my Scout back in my possession.

So, why did I remove all my posts, well because with the way it was going, each reply from the vendor was getting longer and longer and more of them as well... others didn't need to be fronted with all that, especially when I got the Scout back.

To this day, I will not ever contact or use that vendor again, even though I think he may be a nice guy, I just don't think he knows how to treat ( communicate) with customers, especially ones paying quite a bit of money. Sure did feel like I was his gravy train.

And if the vendor left it out, it was your duty to point it out let the words come out, and see where it ends up. Not fold your tent and then edit all your posts so there was nothing but the other vendors side of things. Makes it look like you "made a deal".

It made things unfair, and no longer balanced. So, all of it went away, so who did your really help other than yourself? Did you help the community? Only those that managed to read what you said before you capitulated.

So, in the end, what purpose did this serve other than being a billy club for you to use on someone else temporarily?

Do you see what I am saying? You took the INTENT of this thread, and used it for your own ends, and nothing more. In the end, you didn't help the community at all. That is how I see it. Pretty sure I am not alone.

This thread is to help the community. It is to help customers and vendors better their communication and hopefully help both sides learn how to better support one another.

It isn't a baseball bat for you, or for that matter anyone else to swing.

-John

[orangewhip]

I agree and also disagree...

I felt that if I didn't stop things right then and there, that this would have gone on forever....we've all seen the MASSIVE posts that this vendor replies with, my rebuttal replies would have been just as long, more likely longer... and then he would have replied again and so on and so on, and this would have been a complete waste of people's time (and space) reading the back and forth "arguing" with no way of proving either side was in the right or wrong.

When I made my original posts, I did follow all the rules and put as much information in my post as I could remember at the time of writing... probably TOO much information. I was trying to follow the rules as best as I possibly could... there was nothing in the rules stating that I couldn't retract my original complaint.

After your post in which you commented that I retracted my posts, I then realized that maybe I shouldn't have deleted all my posts, even though the rules never stated I couldn't. And I would have liked to explain why I did, and try to explain why I wasn't "making a deal" as you put it, but you, yourself specifically asked both myself and the vendor to not reply, try to contact you, or anything else in regards to that matter, so I figured I did enough damage by removing my posts and left it as is. It is only now, after the emotions and dust have settled (and other people's issues with the same vendor) that I decided to explain why.

On a side note, again, in the last complaint against the same vendor, because the complaint came quite a while after the work was done and because the vendor wrote numerous and lengthy replies (with pictures), it seems like you had "sided" with the vendor...without even the chance for a rebuttal from the complainer.

If this thread is supposed to help people who have issues with a certain vendor and to spread the word to others, what does it matter how long before the work was done? Also, what do a dozen pictures taken by the vendor showing the work being done have anything to do about the complaint he made, which was his vehicles were never the same after coming back from that vendor. You can put lipstick on a pig, take as many pictures as you want, but in the end, it is still a pig...

As far as me using the threat as my own tool, yes I will admit to that... but at the same time, I am relatively new, this is my first Scout, and I used a vendor that I initially heard about from this forum, and I got screwed... how else would you expect somebody to be? I was seconds from selling the Scout and never having anything to do with them or this forum (or others) again, but I didn't because I love my little Scout and the actual members of this forum provide great information and help out us newbies as much as they can. Which I am 100% completely great-full for and I can only hope to learn enough about my little rig one day to return the favor to others. But that will probably take a while. ;)

[John Donnelly]

I agree and also disagree...

I felt that if I didn't stop things right then and there, that this would have gone on forever....we've all seen the MASSIVE posts that this vendor replies with, my rebuttal replies would have been just as long, more likely longer... and then he would have replied again and so on and so on, and this would have been a complete waste of people's time (and space) reading the back and forth "arguing" with no way of proving either side was in the right or wrong.

When I made my original posts, I did follow all the rules and put as much information in my post as I could remember at the time of writing... probably TOO much information. I was trying to follow the rules as best as I possibly could... there was nothing in the rules stating that I couldn't retract my original complaint.

You did follow the rules, and that is why I found it so disappointing when you edited all of your posts and removed the content. I agree that you could say that it would have turned into a long debate, but be assured that it would have hit a point where any further discussion would have either exposed a fool or revealed where the wrong really was, and no, there is nothing that says you can't retract your complaint. All words are the property of their original poster. That is in our terms of service.

After your post in which you commented that I retracted my posts, I then realized that maybe I shouldn't have deleted all my posts, even though the rules never stated I couldn't. And I would have liked to explain why I did, and try to explain why I wasn't "making a deal" as you put it, but you, yourself specifically asked both myself and the vendor to not reply, try to contact you, or anything else in regards to that matter, so I figured I did enough damage by removing my posts and left it as is. It is only now, after the emotions and dust have settled (and other people's issues with the same vendor) that I decided to explain why.

On a side note, again, in the last complaint against the same vendor, because the complaint came quite a while after the work was done and because the vendor wrote numerous and lengthy replies (with pictures), it seems like you had "sided" with the vendor...without even the chance for a rebuttal from the complainer.

The last complaint against BCB was nothing short of "he done me wrong and I want some street justice". It explained nothing. What was problematic was this poster had contacted one of our team members before posting, was given some clear expectations for posting and at the same time spent more time telling our team member about his troubles than he did when he posted. If he had taken the time to post clear issues as you did, any wordy retort or manifesto from the injured party would have looked like a mea culpa as has happened before.


If this thread is supposed to help people who have issues with a certain vendor and to spread the word to others, what does it matter how long before the work was done? Also, what do a dozen pictures taken by the vendor showing the work being done have anything to do about the complaint he made, which was his vehicles were never the same after coming back from that vendor. You can put lipstick on a pig, take as many pictures as you want, but in the end, it is still a pig...

No truer words were ever spoken about the pig part. And the time frame over work being done has nothing to do with it. Unless of course it was delivered in good condition and then the owner bashed the crap out of it and then tried to blame the vendor for his banged up machine.

As far as me using the threat as my own tool, yes I will admit to that... but at the same time, I am relatively new, this is my first Scout, and I used a vendor that I initially heard about from this forum, and I got screwed... how else would you expect somebody to be? I was seconds from selling the Scout and never having anything to do with them or this forum (or others) again, but I didn't because I love my little Scout and the actual members of this forum provide great information and help out us newbies as much as they can. Which I am 100% completely great-full for and I can only hope to learn enough about my little rig one day to return the favor to others. But that will probably take a while. ;)

I am glad you like your IH. I am glad you have found good help here. I am sorry that you were disappointed in the performance of a vendor you wanted to trust that in the end didn't meet your expectations. That you tried to warn others is commendable. That you bailed out because of a suspected fear of it turning into a furball is understandable, but you should have trusted the team of people here to not only be supportive, but also to understand that while we don't take sides, we DO want the IH community of vendors and customers to find a certain amount of education about how to treat one another better all the time. The world is a fast-paced place anymore. We see this site as a way for everyone to stay current on trends, ideas, and better ways of doing things.

I know many IH vendors. Most of them are some of the most rabid, dyed-in-the-wool IH enthusiasts you will ever meet. They are great folks. I know many of the posters here either personally or via this internet connection. Many of them are some of the most rabid, dyed-in-the-wool IH enthusiasts you will ever meet, and they are great folks.

In the end, both groups have the same goal. Keep IH going. Some of you spend money. Some of you make money. Some of you get a great deal, some of you don't. The road runs in both directions.

This thread was created by the users of this site. But at the same time, we gotta have some decorum and some framework to operate from. If one side complains but gives no facts... it isn't credible. If someone complains and the vendor responds and suddenly the complaint just isn't as important and the complainer removes their information or vice-versa, then it becomes one-sided, and unfair... and it gets put someplace where only the people who run this place can see it.

I don't like this thread. I don't like having to sit in the middle of this stuff. The other admins here don't want to sit here either. But, in the end, the peers of this society wanted this, so here it is.

How much benefit it is comes from all of you. Not from us. All we have done is make a simple request about format and fairness.

-John

[orangewhip]

Sounds good, and fair. My apologies for removing my posts, I honestly didn't think they would be missed.

Cheers!